Motor doping thread

[proffate]

No, it's the way it was done. Boonen was dropped like a rock. Are you saying those two aren't equal? Be real man.

No, they obviously were not equal in that moment in that race. But sometimes Boonen was better. That's why it's a rivalry.

By "the way it was done" I assume you mean it's not humanly possibile to attack while seated. That's not the dumbest thing I've ever heard but it's close.

 

[Cookster15]

Cancellara and Boonen were very equal riders at the peak of their careers. Remco and Keung not so much

Overall I am sure you are right but not every day they raced each other. Everyone has good and bad days. If any rider could do a seated attack like that it was Fabian Cancellara. There are also the race dynamics. Do we know how much work Boonan did that race prior to that moment? Boonan was grimacing before the attack - he seemed on his limit and had nothing left to respond with.

 

[E_F_]

I take it you've never built a bike before with internal routing...

Huh? What kind of scanners do you think we're talking about here?

 

[E_F_]

if I stood on the pedals

On the Muur van Geraardsbergen???

 

[QueenStagiaire]

On the Muur van Geraardsbergen???

Sounds terribly ineffective to stand on the pedals on cobbles

 

[shadowrider]

People said this about car theft, then new car technology effectively stopped it. As I mentioned 40 watts would be enough to make a big difference. The motors don’t need to be large. But they do need to connect to the drive train and be concealable - including the battery.

I still don’t believe it is an issue in the professional peloton. This thread has been running a while. In that time awareness of a possible issue has risen and some cases in MTB, and perhaps Belgium U23, hence the UCI introduced bike checks. I assume Vinge and Pog’s bikes were checked at the last two TdFs?

You are saying if a trained mechanic takes a close look at a bike they can’t tell if there might be a motor supplementing the drive train? I don’t believe that. And I also used some simple logic and reason to debunk that Visma, when someone suggested might have been using motors last year but were warned, can’t have been using motors.

There is no convincing evidence to confirm motors are used in the peloton. If any of this flimsy evidence was presented in court it wouldn’t last long. I’d say the evidence to convict many more riders of blood manipulation is way stronger. That’s where the effort and attention needs to be. This is a distraction from the main game.

Those motors and the actual technology are not the same we find in the bike shops for custom bikes and even racebikes for the public. Several scientists in electrotechnology confirmed it's not about classic electro motors anymore. The technology has changed. Also given the fact that actual technology can't be detected by classic scans.

 

[shadowrider]

Cancellara and Boonen were very equal riders at the peak of their careers. Remco and Keung not so much

Indeed. And both in topform at that moment.

 

[ontheroad]

Just read Phil Gaimons book and he is fairly certain Cancellara used a motor during his career both from the visuals and from listening to other riders in the peloton.

 

[Raest]

Those motors and the actual technology are not the same we find in the bike shops for custom bikes and even racebikes for the public. Several scientists in electrotechnology confirmed it's not about classic electro motors anymore. The technology has changed. Also given the fact that actual technology can't be detected by classic scans.

UCI x-rays the bikes in the grand tours, at the end of stage. Around 10 bikes (2018 info it might be more now) always the winner and usually the leading athlete's bike.
They are using thermal cameras during the stage as well. What technology a) doesn't produce heat (which means there is no friction) b) won't show up in the x-ray?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Just read Phil Gaimons book and he is fairly certain Cancellara used a motor during his career both from the visuals and from listening to other riders in the peloton.

Im sure other riders in the grupetto of tour of Alberta had a great insight into cancellara's dopping programme

 

[E_F_]

Sounds terribly ineffective to stand on the pedals on cobbles

Yeah it takes great skill and strength, which Boonen had on that climb.

 

[zlev11]

Sounds terribly ineffective to stand on the pedals on cobbles

you should tell that to all of these guys then

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Apologies for the length of this post. Listened to the first video. It seems a little sensationalized by the young narrator ["training wheels when Armstrong won his first tour"] obviously to increase the impact but the main evidence seems Femke Van den Driessche in 2016. But its good he says this could destroy the sport - he is right.

As far as Visma are concerned, can we look at more recent evidence than WvA's CX bikes in 2016? At the 2023 Tour I found the UCI conducted 837 tests before Tour de France stages and 160 at the end of stages, none of which showed a rider using a bike with a hidden motor.
UCI carried out 997 checks for motor doping at 2023 Tour de France

Then I also found this story posted before the 2024 Tour:

Professional cyclist says motor doping "impossible" at top level, reacts to "crazy story" from French race as cycling film actor denies cheating at amateur event

Mystery professional rider believes there will have been motor cheats in the past but the UCI introducing strict and frequent testing has likely ended any chance of getting away with it

road.cc

Lots of nice quotes in this story, such as this one from the anonymous pro mentioned ...



Below is Cancellara's attack on the Koppenberg in RVV 2010. Its not a long effort - less than 2 minutes which is anaerobic. We know Cancellara was a monster who could produce huge watts for shortish durations. Boonan can be seen grimacing before the attack so was already at his limits so I am not as convinced as you seem to be:

Fabian Cancellara attack 2010 Ronde van Vlaanderen

So I remain unswayed. I will believe there is substance to motor doping in the peloton when it is a major story to dwarf that when Armstrong was busted. There needs to be a lot more than Cancellara and an obscure Belgian CX woman who was caught and banned in 2016.

"I didn't listen to the entire thing, but I know it's implausible." You really missed some interesting information that isn't sensatioalized at all, and absolutely shows it is not only possible, but the technology already exists in a far more refined manner than you understand. You do you...can't imagine that a pro would deny motors...I mean, Armstrong denied doping, so we know that didn't happen.

 

[Cookster15]

"I didn't listen to the entire thing, but I know it's implausible." You really missed some interesting information that isn't sensatioalized at all, and absolutely shows it is not only possible, but the technology already exists in a far more refined manner than you understand. You do you...can't imagine that a pro would deny motors...I mean, Armstrong denied doping, so we know that didn't happen.

I think it was interesting that pro chose to be anonymous - unlike Armstrong of course. In any case, I only provided that quote for you. It hasn't changed my mind. I'll listen to the other videos when I get time but so far remain unswayed.

 

[Monte Serra]

And the reason I suspect Visma, is that I've seen Wout's CX bikes do some suspicious things in his 2016 campaign. A couple of those videos are really strange.

Wout wasn't even riding for Visma/Jumbo in his 2016 campaign. He joined the team in 2019.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Wout wasn't even riding for Visma/Jumbo in his 2016 campaign. He joined the team in 2019.

Yeah, I know...but if he was using motors, the motors might have moved with him...you know, because criminals are known to continue being criminals.

I mean, my opinion is that anyone who doesn't believe motors have been used in the pro peloton is an idiot. Just my opinion.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I think it was interesting that pro chose to be anonymous - unlike Armstrong of course. In any case, I only provided that quote for you. It hasn't changed my mind. I'll listen to the other videos when I get time but so far remain unswayed.

They aren't videos...it's a podcast...so you didn't even listen to the first one...quelle surprise. "I didn't listen to what I said I watched, that wasn't something I could watch, because I didn't want to hear anything that would change my already decided opinion."

 

[Cookster15]

They aren't videos...it's a podcast...so you didn't even listen to the first one...quelle surprise.

Actually I did listen to the first one. When I have time to listen to the second long podcast I’ll give you my thoughts.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

UCI x-rays the bikes in the grand tours, at the end of stage. Around 10 bikes (2018 info it might be more now) always the winner and usually the leading athlete's bike.
They are using thermal cameras during the stage as well. What technology a) doesn't produce heat (which means there is no friction) b) won't show up in the x-ray?

These methods have been shown to be ineffective, if you dig more. The UCI walks up with an iPad and claim that the technology can detect a motor...I mean, this is from 2017...and we know for sure that the UCI has always been ahead of the cheaters, in terms of detection... https://road.cc/content/news/228768-uci-tests-cant-detect-some-hidden-motors-claims-report#:~:text=Tests conducted by world cycling's,according to a media investigation.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

The UCI special detection machine It's an iPad that uses an app that uses the iPad's compass to detect things. Watch this [[deleted content]]. Their technology is bunk.Why don't they pull the cranks? I mean, I can buy an iPad and do the same thing...I wonder if the teams can afford an iPad in order to find ways to thwart this stunningly advanced technology. <I always forget to put a question mark with a rhetorical question.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rglm0oA2gOU

 

[Raest]

The UCI has an X-ray machine that's transportable and it's used to X-ray the stage winner's bike, the lead jerseys' bikes and randomly chosen bikes at the end of the race or stage. I have already written this twice. But it's convenient to overlook it as it doesn't fit with your narrative isn't it?

 

[Psycat]

I don't understand why Cancellara's kapelmuur attack is supposed to be "proof" of motor doping. Because he looked a lot more comfortable than Boonen? I mean that is just how it is when someone gets dropped. Remco was also seated when he dropped Kueng and co at OGRR. Do you think that standing up means you shouldn't be dropped? I'm pretty sure any pro would still drop me even if I stood on the pedals and grimaced.

It's not a one time thing for me, Cancellara got several weird moments and liked to change bikes mid race. Of course nothing conclusive but he is one of a handful of riders that got clips visibly looking off to me. It just doesn't look natural at all.

 

[E_F_]

The UCI has an X-ray machine that's transportable and it's used to X-ray the stage winner's bike, the lead jerseys' bikes and randomly chosen bikes at the end of the race or stage. I have already written this twice. But it's convenient to overlook it as it doesn't fit with your narrative isn't it?

They do have a habit of not actually doing that, though.

 

[Cookster15]

They do have a habit of not actually doing that, though.

Pretty sure they always do it for the stage winners - or is that only grand tours? Happy to be wrong.

 

[Raest]

They do have a habit of not actually doing that, though.

Haven't read or watched anything to support that. Might have missed it