why not?ooo said:
well done, though i don't think we should burry this one just yet.jyl said:LaFlorecita said:Wow, that looks weird. Don't know how to explain the wheel movement.luckyboy said:Cosmo Catalano and Adam Myerson think Wout Van Aert is at it (4th guy, in all white. Video is from Hoogerheide) - https://www.facebook.com/cosmo.catalano/videos/10100653425172516/?fref=nf
I downloaded the video and went through it frame-by-frame.
1 - He coasts to the apex of the turn, right where the rear end of his saddle is at the start of the first "a" in the first "kalas" on the banner. Right crank at 6 o'clock, no crank rotation.
2 - He starts to pedal, the right crank rotates to about 7:30 o'clock by the time his saddle is at the start of the second "a" of the first "kalas".
3 - Something goes wrong (some mention of chain jump in Cosmo's post), he stops pedaling and actually backpedals a fraction, the right crank rotates in reverse and gets to almost 6 o'clock by the time his saddle is at the end of the "s" in the first "kalas".
4 - He starts pedaling again, the right crank is at 9 o'clock by the time his saddle gets to the start of the "k" in the second "kalas".
5 - between those two points (saddle at end of "s" and saddle at start of "k"), if you go frame by frame and compare the rotation of the crank and the rotation of the rear rim, you see (a) the rim rotation speeds up right when the crank starts rotating again, and (b) the crank rotation rate and the rim rotation rate speed up together, as he exits the corner.
In other words, it looks okay to me. I think what fools our eyes is the brief interruption where he backpedals for an instant.
I don't know if you are using a Mac or a PC. On a OS X, you can record streaming video from your screen, using Quicktime Player, then use cursor right and left arrows to step through the video frames. Pretty handy. There must be a similar trick for Windows, does anyone know it? I use Windows 10.
that's the point.ooo said:sniper, it look like wheel rotates in sync with cranks, and there is no suspicion cranks rotation acceleration
wheel acceleration without cranks acceleration requires engine in hub (requires bigger hub) or electromagnetics inside the rim and frame (there is no practical product, it may be the first of a kind)
great, thanks. admittedly, that looks ok in slomo.ooo said:you can change speed using + and - on the left bottom corner , or using url with speed parameter:
http://gfycat.com/OccasionalBitterElectriceel#?speed=0.2
http://gfycat.com/OccasionalBitterElectriceel#?speed=0.5
http://gfycat.com/OccasionalBitterElectriceel#?speed=1.0
Libertine Seguros said:You seem to be operating under the assumption that by describing her as a "deer in the headlights" I'm somehow absolving her of blame. She's pretty damned obviously not blameless in the situation. At the end of the day, it's still her that rides the illegal bike and it's her name that gets splashed about the press, so there's no way she wasn't in on it. Like hrotha said way back, while she's young enough to be impressionable, she's also old enough to know what she's doing is massively egregious cheating and she's old enough to take responsibility for her actions. And they also called you out for not letting go of the gender issue in it too.
I describe Femke as a "deer in the headlights" in that interview not because she's female, but because how completely unequipped she seemed for dealing with the sudden burst of negative attention. Obviously she will have known that if she got caught, it would be bad, but she may not have fully realised just how big a deal it would be, and also how massive the coverage of the scandal would be compared to the coverage of the races she is in. When I point out she's not equipped for that because she's "an U23 women's CX rider" it's not "because she's female" but because:
a) cyclocross gets much less coverage, at least worldwide, than road cycling
b) U23 racing gets much less coverage than the elite seniors
c) women's cycling gets much less coverage than men's cycling
If a hypothetical Femke on a non-doctored bike had WON that race, she'd get a short piece on Sporza, a bit of a celebration of the Belgian home champions after van Aert's win perhaps, and then she'd go back to where she was. And if that hypothetical Femke had also been doping (regardless of whether the actual one was or wasn't), by the time the results came back, Classics sason would be underway, the 'cross season would be more or less over, it might get a brief flurry of attention then she'd disappear into the night. Being caught with a motor doesn't allow that "out"; the deception is recognized immediately as soon as it's spotted. The humiliation is severe and it is instant, and now her disgrace is being reported all over the world, and not just in the specialist press either. And she then has to justify herself under questioning in a TV interview that's going to be watched by a LOT more people worldwide than the usual Sporza audience, with prospective bans and fines being bandied about that massively exceed anything she could reasonably have hoped to make in her whole career if she'd been able to motor-dope her way to victory in almost every World Cup for a decade. Easy to get overwhelmed.
She's become a pariah overnight, and also because what she's done is SO blatant, SO egregious, and SO antithetical to what the sport is meant to be about, in one fell swoop she goes from being thought of as potentially slightly shady by the comparatively small proportion of the cycling fanbase that follows women's cyclocross to being such a soft target that people are almost lining up to pile on more shame, from the justifiably righteous to the attention-seeking hypocrites of the sport. Even Riccardo Riccò, cycling fans' favourite punching bag, has said his bit to put the boot in on her. Because whatever he did, he can say that he didn't get busted for putting a motor in his bike.
Everything we're seeing is telling us that the van den Driessche family, seemingly in general, is dubious as all hell. We aren't talking a few otherwise totally upstanding people having to cut corners out of desperation to keep their dreams alive. Even the most sympathetic portrayals of Femke must acknowledge that. It's impossible that she didn't know what was going on, and therefore whoever was responsible for the idea or implementation of the ruse is irrelevant (and obviously the excuse has been worked out on the fly, and now they've forced their own hands into sticking to it). Even a constant power, or power-activated motor that didn't require switching on and off would mean that the bike would be much heavier, and almost certainly would have felt and handled significantly differently. And it seems like the UCI's telling us of it being random checking to check out a new bit of gear is a likely fallacy, just as when they told everybody Carlos Barredo had a high suspicion index score because he hadn't been tested enough, then quietly erased his career for biopassport violations. It sounds like enough people were concerned for action to become almost needed.
She joins the ranks of those who had to be removed because they weren't subtle enough. But by being the first one caught for a whole new world of cheating, she also stands alone... for the time being.
WillemS said:Allow me to play the devil's advocate and defend the UCI for a bit.
I don't think the UCI actually covertly approves of (mechanical) doping, I mere think the UCI realised they stand no chance whatsoever against the financial means of the teams/riders and are held prisoner by the lack of anti-doping portrayed by other international sporting federations (athletics, tennis, football/soccer). So, even while trying to set boundaries, while trying to keep it a bit real (e.g., no Tour of Turkey Ducatis), they know they can't keep up with the most devious of employed doping tactics and they can't be the only sport to be highlighted repeatedly by scandal spotlight or they risk losing all of their sponsors.
So what do they do? They set boundaries, but not by secretly starting to enforce them, but by announcing them. If they do have to make a sacrifice, then they make sure they bust a small fish. Want to demonstrate that you can now detect SARMs and related products (GW-50156)? Announce the introduction of the tests and bust a couple of Pro-Conti no ones. Give the signal: We have the test now, we have to perform it, so change your MO. The UCI can now say they do implement new testing regimes and keep up appearances, while carefully avoiding potential scandals of positive World Tour riders.
It's the same with this case. Sure, the motor is a big scandal, but it's a foolish 19 old girl riding the U23 cyclocross WC, not Froome in yellow in July. Moreover, they announced the tests, the girl failed her IQ-test and could be sacrificed to show boundaries yet again have to shift and new methods to cheat should again be found (if not found already...). If they truly were interested in keeping it clean, then they should have impounded the bike, but kept quiet about the case in public (and test again the next day, without additional warning, at the men's event). They were probably compelled by rumours do something against motorized doping and probably saw no way of avoiding the implementation of these new tests. (Whether they really wanted to bust someone I doubt, as they did announce checks. The girl and her team probably just failed the IQ-test.)
So, why would the UCI employ this tactic? It's actually quite simple. Just look at the enormous budgets that the teams spend on "technological innovation" of bikes (take Sky for example). There's no way the UCI can keep up, just as there is no way to keep up with the pharmaceutical developments. There's just no budget on the policing side of business. Even if they would want to do it, that is really trying to ban doping from the sports, then it's probably nearly impossible to do it consistently enough to truly do so. Ergo, they might catch some dopers, but they would certainly still miss most of them. And catching only a few will not make the sport clean, but it will make it go bankrupt, as other sports competing for sponsorships have no scandals (as they also don't actually want to catch stars and have scandals.)
So, what's left for the UCI? Well, they slowly push the boundaries of doping, announcing their advancements every step of the way while protecting the main riders. In doing so, they actually propel doping innovations, as methods need to be in continuous development. However, if you look deep into the desires of the UCI, I think most officials, maybe even including Crookson, would want to see doping gone. They just know that they can't do it and that the sport will probably go bankrupt if they try to do it with the insufficient means they have. So keep up the show, implement new tests but always make sure everyone gets a heads-up. If you fail to heed that, then, well, you're doomed, but most seem to pass the IQ-test and if you're important enough, they might even help you with that (e.g., Froome won't test positive.)
Because if the UCI was really serious about banning cheaters, Thomas Dekker would not have been one of the only riders caught by retroactive testing. (We now know that most of the riders of that era would have produced dirty samples with today's testing methods, so the best way to avoid scandals is just to not apply retroactive tests, even though they are still relevant as some riders are still active to this very day.)
Beech Mtn said:WillemS said:Allow me to play the devil's advocate and defend the UCI for a bit.
I don't think the UCI actually covertly approves of (mechanical) doping, I mere think the UCI realised they stand no chance whatsoever against the financial means of the teams/riders and are held prisoner by the lack of anti-doping portrayed by other international sporting federations (athletics, tennis, football/soccer). So, even while trying to set boundaries, while trying to keep it a bit real (e.g., no Tour of Turkey Ducatis), they know they can't keep up with the most devious of employed doping tactics and they can't be the only sport to be highlighted repeatedly by scandal spotlight or they risk losing all of their sponsors.
So what do they do? They set boundaries, but not by secretly starting to enforce them, but by announcing them. If they do have to make a sacrifice, then they make sure they bust a small fish. Want to demonstrate that you can now detect SARMs and related products (GW-50156)? Announce the introduction of the tests and bust a couple of Pro-Conti no ones. Give the signal: We have the test now, we have to perform it, so change your MO. The UCI can now say they do implement new testing regimes and keep up appearances, while carefully avoiding potential scandals of positive World Tour riders.
It's the same with this case. Sure, the motor is a big scandal, but it's a foolish 19 old girl riding the U23 cyclocross WC, not Froome in yellow in July. Moreover, they announced the tests, the girl failed her IQ-test and could be sacrificed to show boundaries yet again have to shift and new methods to cheat should again be found (if not found already...). If they truly were interested in keeping it clean, then they should have impounded the bike, but kept quiet about the case in public (and test again the next day, without additional warning, at the men's event). They were probably compelled by rumours do something against motorized doping and probably saw no way of avoiding the implementation of these new tests. (Whether they really wanted to bust someone I doubt, as they did announce checks. The girl and her team probably just failed the IQ-test.)
So, why would the UCI employ this tactic? It's actually quite simple. Just look at the enormous budgets that the teams spend on "technological innovation" of bikes (take Sky for example). There's no way the UCI can keep up, just as there is no way to keep up with the pharmaceutical developments. There's just no budget on the policing side of business. Even if they would want to do it, that is really trying to ban doping from the sports, then it's probably nearly impossible to do it consistently enough to truly do so. Ergo, they might catch some dopers, but they would certainly still miss most of them. And catching only a few will not make the sport clean, but it will make it go bankrupt, as other sports competing for sponsorships have no scandals (as they also don't actually want to catch stars and have scandals.)
So, what's left for the UCI? Well, they slowly push the boundaries of doping, announcing their advancements every step of the way while protecting the main riders. In doing so, they actually propel doping innovations, as methods need to be in continuous development. However, if you look deep into the desires of the UCI, I think most officials, maybe even including Crookson, would want to see doping gone. They just know that they can't do it and that the sport will probably go bankrupt if they try to do it with the insufficient means they have. So keep up the show, implement new tests but always make sure everyone gets a heads-up. If you fail to heed that, then, well, you're doomed, but most seem to pass the IQ-test and if you're important enough, they might even help you with that (e.g., Froome won't test positive.)
Because if the UCI was really serious about banning cheaters, Thomas Dekker would not have been one of the only riders caught by retroactive testing. (We now know that most of the riders of that era would have produced dirty samples with today's testing methods, so the best way to avoid scandals is just to not apply retroactive tests, even though they are still relevant as some riders are still active to this very day.)
This is also an excellent post. Mods should title it "The New Fan's Guide to Understanding the UCI" and sticky it at the top of the clinic's main page.
good work. Have you seen Cancellara's flicking? It looked very similar to Femke's.Tienus said:Just went for a ride and experimented a little. Resting my hand on the top of the brakes, not grippping but relaxed fingers pointing down. Then I pushed an imaginary button with my thumb and watched what happened to my other fingers. I suggest to anyone who doubts if Femke is pushing a button in the links posted in this thread to do this experiment.
Beech Mtn said:WillemS said:Allow me to play the devil's advocate and defend the UCI for a bit.
I don't think the UCI actually covertly approves of (mechanical) doping, I mere think the UCI realised they stand no chance whatsoever against the financial means of the teams/riders and are held prisoner by the lack of anti-doping portrayed by other international sporting federations (athletics, tennis, football/soccer). So, even while trying to set boundaries, while trying to keep it a bit real (e.g., no Tour of Turkey Ducatis), they know they can't keep up with the most devious of employed doping tactics and they can't be the only sport to be highlighted repeatedly by scandal spotlight or they risk losing all of their sponsors.
So what do they do? They set boundaries, but not by secretly starting to enforce them, but by announcing them. If they do have to make a sacrifice, then they make sure they bust a small fish. Want to demonstrate that you can now detect SARMs and related products (GW-50156)? Announce the introduction of the tests and bust a couple of Pro-Conti no ones. Give the signal: We have the test now, we have to perform it, so change your MO. The UCI can now say they do implement new testing regimes and keep up appearances, while carefully avoiding potential scandals of positive World Tour riders.
It's the same with this case. Sure, the motor is a big scandal, but it's a foolish 19 old girl riding the U23 cyclocross WC, not Froome in yellow in July. Moreover, they announced the tests, the girl failed her IQ-test and could be sacrificed to show boundaries yet again have to shift and new methods to cheat should again be found (if not found already...). If they truly were interested in keeping it clean, then they should have impounded the bike, but kept quiet about the case in public (and test again the next day, without additional warning, at the men's event). They were probably compelled by rumours do something against motorized doping and probably saw no way of avoiding the implementation of these new tests. (Whether they really wanted to bust someone I doubt, as they did announce checks. The girl and her team probably just failed the IQ-test.)
So, why would the UCI employ this tactic? It's actually quite simple. Just look at the enormous budgets that the teams spend on "technological innovation" of bikes (take Sky for example). There's no way the UCI can keep up, just as there is no way to keep up with the pharmaceutical developments. There's just no budget on the policing side of business. Even if they would want to do it, that is really trying to ban doping from the sports, then it's probably nearly impossible to do it consistently enough to truly do so. Ergo, they might catch some dopers, but they would certainly still miss most of them. And catching only a few will not make the sport clean, but it will make it go bankrupt, as other sports competing for sponsorships have no scandals (as they also don't actually want to catch stars and have scandals.)
So, what's left for the UCI? Well, they slowly push the boundaries of doping, announcing their advancements every step of the way while protecting the main riders. In doing so, they actually propel doping innovations, as methods need to be in continuous development. However, if you look deep into the desires of the UCI, I think most officials, maybe even including Crookson, would want to see doping gone. They just know that they can't do it and that the sport will probably go bankrupt if they try to do it with the insufficient means they have. So keep up the show, implement new tests but always make sure everyone gets a heads-up. If you fail to heed that, then, well, you're doomed, but most seem to pass the IQ-test and if you're important enough, they might even help you with that (e.g., Froome won't test positive.)
Because if the UCI was really serious about banning cheaters, Thomas Dekker would not have been one of the only riders caught by retroactive testing. (We now know that most of the riders of that era would have produced dirty samples with today's testing methods, so the best way to avoid scandals is just to not apply retroactive tests, even though they are still relevant as some riders are still active to this very day.)
This is also an excellent post. Mods should title it "The New Fan's Guide to Understanding the UCI" and sticky it at the top of the clinic's main page.
Tienus said:ooo said:youtube - femke bike closeup in interview
This is bike nr3. I think its a clean one.
jyl said:Tienus said:ooo said:youtube - femke bike closeup in interview
This is bike nr3. I think its a clean one.
Racing fans and photographers must be scouring the internet and their hard drives for photos of the bike that was seized, and her other bikes, and trying to determine in which races she rode the seized bike. But I haven't seen any clear exposition of this.
I know you've been examining this closely. Can you post a confirmed photo (or link to a photo) of the motorized bike that was seized at the Worlds and contained the motor?
good work. Have you seen Cancellara's flicking? It looked very similar to Femke's.Tienus said:Just went for a ride and experimented a little. Resting my hand on the top of the brakes, not grippping but relaxed fingers pointing down. Then I pushed an imaginary button with my thumb and watched what happened to my other fingers. I suggest to anyone who doubts if Femke is pushing a button in the links posted in this thread to do this experiment.
Maxiton said:BikeCentric said:Another good one from Business Insider, details on the motors being used:
http://www.businessinsider.com/vivax-motor-bike-doping
404 - Not found
TourOfSardinia said:La Gazzetta implies Izaguirre is bike doping - video of spinning wheel included
http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/03-02-2016/volta-valenciana-bici-terra-ruota-continua-girare-video-izaguirre-140533589109.shtml