Motor doping thread

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jyl

Jan 2, 2016
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Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Bavarianrider said:
Anyone with half a brain and eyes in his head knows that it has been used in the pros. While the popular videos of Cancellara or Froome leave a 1% possibility that they didn't use a motor, the one of Hesjedal certainly didn't.
The Hesjedal video is 99% certainly NOT showing a bike being powered by an electric motor. In the video, the bike is sliding on the ground during the crash, laid on its side, and the cranks are not turning. That means it cannot possibly be powered by the Vivax Assist motor or any similar one, since they work by driving the cranks. I'm not aware of any other motor system that would be concealed well enough for motor doping.

No, there cannot have been a rear wheel motor in that bike. A wheel motor system requires an oversized hub (to contain the motor), a reaction arm between hub and frame, and wires between hub and battery (unless the battery is contained in the hub, in which case the hub is grossly oversized, like a dinner plate). Those would all be obvious.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

jyl said:
Bavarianrider said:
Anyone with half a brain and eyes in his head knows that it has been used in the pros. While the popular videos of Cancellara or Froome leave a 1% possibility that they didn't use a motor, the one of Hesjedal certainly didn't.
The Hesjedal video is 99% certainly NOT showing a bike being powered by an electric motor. In the video, the bike is sliding on the ground during the crash, laid on its side, and the cranks are not turning. That means it cannot possibly be powered by the Vivax Assist motor or any similar one, since they work by driving the cranks. I'm not aware of any other motor system that would be concealed well enough for motor doping.

No, there cannot have been a rear wheel motor in that bike. A wheel motor system requires an oversized hub (to contain the motor), a reaction arm between hub and frame, and wires between hub and battery (unless the battery is contained in the hub, in which case the hub is grossly oversized, like a dinner plate). Those would all be obvious.
with all respect, I'm 99% sure the boldfaced means very little.
Some really need to read the following two threads before repeating old arguments.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22884&hilit=motor
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7745
 
Jun 18, 2009
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It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
 
Re:

McLovin said:
It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
Well obviously the motor started as an effect of the crash.
There is absolutely no explanation for that kind of a movement of the bike, if not for a motor. Nada, zero, none.
 
Re: Re:

Flamin said:
Rovinin said:
Flamin said:
Watching the interview with her, she doesn't come across as an intelligent girl at all. A reason more to suspect that she is surrounded by **** people, cuz there is no way she organized this on her own. In fact, I honestly believe her influence in all this is rather small.
Basically this.
Only thing that makes me think the other side, is her putting the ring on and off her finger, which can be a lying tick.
Well, of course she was lying. Her story was total nonsense. But that doesn't mean that her entourage wasn't the driving force behind this.
For a second I thought I was on the politics thread.

Carry on...
 
Re: Re:

Bavarianrider said:
McLovin said:
It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
Well obviously the motor started as an effect of the crash.
There is absolutely no explanation for that kind of a movement of the bike, if not for a motor. Nada, zero, none.
Did you see Rasmussen's video?
 
Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Father seems like one of those super pushy parents that probably never did any sports or did, but was never good at it, and now is trying to live through his kids and any success they get. Think 'soccer moms' in the US. Depending on how far the cheating went with the girl, I'd say don't ban her for life. I am not gonna throw a pity party for her, but she looks terrified in the interview. Maybe I am just naive.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Bavarianrider said:
McLovin said:
It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
Well obviously the motor started as an effect of the crash.
There is absolutely no explanation for that kind of a movement of the bike, if not for a motor. Nada, zero, none.
Did you see Rasmussen's video?
yeah, it was discussed extensively in the Ryder thread.
Ridiculous attempt at omerta. Had nothing to do with the physics at play in Ryder's case. For the n-th time, Ryder's wheel came to a halt before it started spinning again.
At best Rasmussen's vid suggests he himself uses a motor as well. Otherwise how do you explain his attempt at insulting the brain like that?
 
Re: Re:

Bavarianrider said:
McLovin said:
It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
Well obviously the motor started as an effect of the crash.
There is absolutely no explanation for that kind of a movement of the bike, if not for a motor. Nada, zero, none.
That last bit is hyperbole. One person with a knowledge of physics put forth an argument based on conservation of angular momentum.

https://twitter.com/EricGregg300/status/507692600740950016/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
 
Re:

Tienus said:
@Freddythefrog

Een schorsing van 2 jaar voor Niels VAN DEN DRIESSCHE (23/05/1993), van 16 december 2014 tot 15 december 2016

Written on page ten of this document:
http://www.konedegembicycleclub.be/doc/Nieuwsbrief_2015_2.pdf
Many thanks !

Point 1

2 Years from Dec 14. His sister, whilst not exactly setting the World on fire, was doing quite a few races.

https://cyclingdatabase.com/rider/femke-van-den-driessche/17483

(So it might not be comprehensive because I cannot see the European U23 champs in that list)

Back to the narrative, from Dec 2014, when her brother gets the red flag (when was the race ?) how come they could not lay a finger on her ? Not doping like her brother ? The motor was easier ? The test regimen was corrupt/token/flagged ? Surely with brother bust there was a lot of soul searching before her selection and that is best done after a load of targeted testing ?

Point 2 this was the newsletter for the Flanders Wielerbond and there are two people with 2 year bans.

I put in Steven THOMAS and 2 year ban and can bring up nothing in my search engine.
I put in Niels VAN DEN DRIESSCHE epo and again nothing contemporary to the ban comes up.
The case is not listed at wiki in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling#2015

So this newsletter, it comes out each month? Is the regular issue a couple of doping cases announced each time ? Some months are there more ? The occasional month none ? On a bumper summer issue do we get a number that makes double figures ? Can we find this positive for epo on the UCI website. I have tried searching the UCI site and cannot find it. I am back to my theme that in the new transparent era, the only thing that appears transparent is the word "transparent" that goes before the word "era". I find this conflicts with the reality I am experiencing.

Am I missing something here ?
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
LaFlorecita said:
Bavarianrider said:
McLovin said:
It was on a descent for God sakes! Was he trying to reach 140 km/h? Plus he was not alone, he was not even the first in that group!
Well obviously the motor started as an effect of the crash.
There is absolutely no explanation for that kind of a movement of the bike, if not for a motor. Nada, zero, none.
Did you see Rasmussen's video?
yeah, it was discussed extensively in the Ryder thread.
Ridiculous attempt at omerta. Had nothing to do with the physics at play in Ryder's case. For the n-th time, Ryder's wheel came to a halt before it started spinning again.
At best Rasmussen's vid suggests he himself uses a motor as well. Otherwise how do you explain his attempt at insulting the brain like that?
He was probably annoyed by the anti-doping trolls with a single brain cell as well.
 

jyl

Jan 2, 2016
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Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

sniper said:
jyl said:
Bavarianrider said:
Anyone with half a brain and eyes in his head knows that it has been used in the pros. While the popular videos of Cancellara or Froome leave a 1% possibility that they didn't use a motor, the one of Hesjedal certainly didn't.
The Hesjedal video is 99% certainly NOT showing a bike being powered by an electric motor. In the video, the bike is sliding on the ground during the crash, laid on its side, and the cranks are not turning. That means it cannot possibly be powered by the Vivax Assist motor or any similar one, since they work by driving the cranks. I'm not aware of any other motor system that would be concealed well enough for motor doping.

No, there cannot have been a rear wheel motor in that bike. A wheel motor system requires an oversized hub (to contain the motor), a reaction arm between hub and frame, and wires between hub and battery (unless the battery is contained in the hub, in which case the hub is grossly oversized, like a dinner plate). Those would all be obvious.
with all respect, I'm 99% sure the boldfaced means very little.
Some really need to read the following two threads before repeating old arguments.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22884&hilit=motor
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7745
Yeah, I read those threads.

Some people theorized the switch of a Vivax Assist system got knocked momentarily to "on" by the impact. If there was a motor causing the bike to slide during the crash, it was not the Vivax or any other crank drive system, since the cranks are not rotating when the bike is sliding. We know the cranks are not rotating because we can see the drive side pedal and it isn't rotating relative to the frame, and also because the frame is not moving up and down as it would if the non drive side crank/pedal were rotating against the ground.

[Edit: the way the Vivax system works is, you press the button for several seconds while pedaling your desired cadence, to set the motor rpm (must be between 50 and 90 rpm), then the next time you push the button, if you are pedaling at least 15 rpm, the motor turns on and drives the crank at the preset cadence. http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/technik/bedienung.html Hesjesdal, if using a Vivax, would have preset the cadence to 80 rpm or whatever he normally rides at in the situation where he planned to use the motor. If the impact somehow pushed the button, and somehow defeated the 15 rpm limit, so that the motor started running, the cranks would have started rotating at 80 rpm with 250 (or 110, depending on setting) watts power. That would, I think, have been extremely obvious. Now, watching the video, the slow-mo version, when he starts sliding on the ground, his right foot is clipped in, when his foot unclips, that pedal (drive side, right pedal) is at about 12 oclock (if viewed from the right side of the bike), it stays at about 12 oclock for the rest of the video, until the camera bike runs over the bike and we lose sight of the pedal.

I think motor doping must be being used, at least on some occasions, in top level racing, LeMond says so, the UCI thinks so - enough to have started this bike checking program and bringing Xray machines and now their portable scanner to races, and now this Belgian rider proves it. I just don't think the Hesjesdal video shows an instance of motor doping.]

A hub drive system would not require the cranks to rotate, but most people on those threads recognized that it couldn't have been a hub drive system, for the reasons mentioned already.

Crank drive and hub drive - these are the only types of motor drive for a bike that I know of. Can you think of any others?. Warp drive?

He falls, he and the bike slide, they both come to a stop, the bike starts moving again. What happens right when the bike starts moving is that he is moving his legs, from whatever position they were in during the fall, to under him so he can get up. It is possible that as one of his feet kicked the bike, perhaps on the saddle, and caused it to rotate. Lay your bike on the pavement, resting on the front wheel and non drive side pedal, and kick the saddle - the bike will rotate. We can't confirm this is what happened, because we can't see his legs or the saddle. But it is more plausible, I think, than a motor system of a currently unknown type.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

good post jyl.
mods, maybe jyl's post (and a few others) can be moved to the hesjedal thread?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
MarkvW said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
So according to the riders dad, a person of the entourage had put the bike in the pits and it was accidentaally given to her. I'm having a hard time believing this
Well...that is about the only possible excuse that would fit in with the undeniable facts...
Apparently it was the bike of a friend who goes along with her while warming up, the bike was left in the pits and apparently she didn't even ride it.
but she knew how to fly up that berg by pushing the button just like Cancellara? yeah right.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

Anaconda said:
This is World's not a little local race. I assume staff needed credentials to get into the pits? Who is this friend and why did they treat the technical zone at a World Championship as their own personal bike parking area? Just does not seem at all credible that this bike is in the pit for any reason at all. Anyway is the bike frame size and position fitting the athlete in question? Will be easy to call BS on this story if the bike fits her. A la "if the glove don't fit you must acquit"...or not.
what was that berg she flew up like Cancellara?

The cobbled berg?

So, she just happens to know how to use this artillery button next to the gear levers? yeah right. She uses the button at just the right time in the race?

risible. This is the explanation, not the right size wrong size trivia. She used the weapon in her bike, just when the knives were brought out for the knife fight, she brings out the Smith&Wesson to the knife fight, has made her way to the front of the bunch, and flies up the berg in the gutter.

yeah,

as Dear Wiggo in his inimitable way would say

sounds legit

good grief
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Flamin said:
classicomano said:
Seeing some of her interviews its obvious the girl is as dumb as a ton of bricks, id be surprised if her IQ crossed the 70 mark. Its all the dad's fault.
Cheap shot from behind your keyboard :eek:
Yeah but he wasn't using a motor doing it ;)
 
I guess the good news about this is though, that it's a cheating method that can realistically be beaten by testers - just register every frame used in the race and test them afterwards.

I don't know what an x-ray machine costs, but it can't be prohibitive, at least for top level races.
 
Jan 30, 2016
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So this newsletter, it comes out each month? Is the regular issue a couple of doping cases announced each time ? Some months are there more ? The occasional month none ? On a bumper summer issue do we get a number that makes double figures ? Can we find this positive for epo on the UCI website. I have tried searching the UCI site and cannot find it. I am back to my theme that in the new transparent era, the only thing that appears transparent is the word "transparent" that goes before the word "era". I find this conflicts with the reality I am experiencing.

Am I missing something here ?
In this document it says that the exclution of an elite athlete or his coach will be anounced within 20 days of the verdict on the NADO Vlaanderen website.
http://www.dopinglijn.be/fileadmin/media/nieuws/Studiedag/dopingpreventie_-_gids_voor_sportfederaties.pdf
on page 17 it says:
De disciplinaire uitsluitingen van meerderjarige elitesporters en van meerderjarige
begeleiders van elitesporters worden binnen twintig dagen nadat de sanctie definitief is
geworden, bekendgemaakt op de website van NADO Vlaanderen.

I think this is the website they use for anouncements:
http://www.dopinglijn.be

I cant find Niels van den Driessche on this site. I did find names of other offenders.
You can also find alot of general statistics. Look how dirty motorsport is:
http://www.dopinglijn.be/fileadmin/media/cijfers_stats/2014_jaartotaal.pdf
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

Amazinmets87 said:
staubsauger said:
As much as I've sadly enough accepted medical doping as part of the game to increase your OWN power ...

I ain't gonna accept any cheating with motors anytime. This is bike racing. Not motorbike racing.

I certainly hope the UCI's got the same view on it and fights just this one very hard!

I would rate Vaughters & co hypocrite enough to truly believe that mechanical doping at least ain't got no bad influence on the riders health and ain't that sleazy because of that. He's such a goof and ain't got no clue about true cycling passion after all!
Indeed. I too have accepted medical doping and cycling as inextricably linked. I'll even admit following that aspect of the sport was a guilty pleasure. But mototized doping is a different animal and would completely ruin the beauty of cycling for me
nah, I am with Helmut Roole on this, this is even better.

It is like you progressed from weed onto coke. And the weed cannot compare to the coke.

this just rises it on another scale. I dont know if what we are watching is a sport, but gees, this is entertaining.

<popcorn gif>
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Re:

spalco said:
I guess the good news about this is though, that it's a cheating method that can realistically be beaten by testers - just register every frame used in the race and test them afterwards.

I don't know what an x-ray machine costs, but it can't be prohibitive, at least for top level races.
Apparently now they are using a new gadget that is able to detect electomagnetic signals and works like a Thermal Imager at the same time and sends the results right to your tablet, at least that is what La Gazzetta dello Sport reported today.
 

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