Lance Armstrong's 2005 climbing Madone:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2005_Trek_Madone.jpg
Re: Re:
You may or may not be right, but a picture from the other side of the bike would prove your point much better, since that is where the dt lever would actually be if it was there.
zlev11 said:Tienus said:
a quick google image search tells me this is wrong
pla d'adet 2005
no dt shifter
You may or may not be right, but a picture from the other side of the bike would prove your point much better, since that is where the dt lever would actually be if it was there.
zlev11
BANNED
- Jan 23, 2011
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yep, you're right. you can see it here: http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/lance-armstrong-during-stage-11-of-the-2005-tour-de-france-between-picture-id532794940
https://youtu.be/6QUSkuxc3Zw?t=1m50s
Hautacam 2000
Go to settings and reduce the speed to 0.25.
At 1:53 Armstrong seems to shift with his left hand. After this he drops Pantani. He is riding with a downtube shifter.
Hautacam 2000
Go to settings and reduce the speed to 0.25.
At 1:53 Armstrong seems to shift with his left hand. After this he drops Pantani. He is riding with a downtube shifter.
likewise for Eddy's 74 bike
https://www.facebook.com/1394788424163752/videos/1503015646674362/
This mechanic claims just like Varjas that he made it for persons with a disability.
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Re:
And also from the looks in general it doesn't strike me as very suspicious (only in terms of motorization of course). He's out-of-saddle and kicking a lot. The decisive moves, dropping other riders, are out-of-saddle acceleration bursts. Wouldn't this riding style be an unnecessarily inefficient use of a motor?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to be proven wrong by the upcoming documentary.
I'm not so sure you convinced me on this one. I can see some movement of his hand/fingers but it's nowhere near a unambiguous shifting or button-pressing motion.Tienus said:
And also from the looks in general it doesn't strike me as very suspicious (only in terms of motorization of course). He's out-of-saddle and kicking a lot. The decisive moves, dropping other riders, are out-of-saddle acceleration bursts. Wouldn't this riding style be an unnecessarily inefficient use of a motor?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to be proven wrong by the upcoming documentary.
I'm not convinced myself but I do think his hand movement is suspiscious.
I noticed that difference too. You ask a good question for which I dont know the answer.
The video quality is really poor but in the first seconds of this video he is also making movements with fingers from his left hand. Again there is no shifter in his brake lever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqh4a4kooEE
Yes, that second example is more convincing.
Looks like he's pressing something with his left hand thumb.
Then he just paces away without any extra effort that I can see.
Looks like he's pressing something with his left hand thumb.
Then he just paces away without any extra effort that I can see.
Re:
I think his other fingers also extend outwards like with Fabian and Femke.
It looks like Lance used a downtube shifter from 2000 to 2005 (not in 1999) and then Astana in 2006.
I cant think of a good reason to do so. I dont think its for weight saving unless there is something heavy inside the frame. The UCI 6.8 kg weight limit has been in place since January the 1st 2000.
sniper said:
I think his other fingers also extend outwards like with Fabian and Femke.
It looks like Lance used a downtube shifter from 2000 to 2005 (not in 1999) and then Astana in 2006.
I cant think of a good reason to do so. I dont think its for weight saving unless there is something heavy inside the frame. The UCI 6.8 kg weight limit has been in place since January the 1st 2000.
The thing with the downtube shifter really is a very nice spot.
You have me convinced.
I wonder if bikeswitches (from motorless bike to motorized bike in finals kilometers) were part of the setup.
After the 28th of January we may have to revitalize this thread:
http://forum.cyclingnews.imdserve.com/viewtopic.php?p=554604&sid=8c90048b3a4c1358219a1d354abbe04a#p554604
You have me convinced.
I wonder if bikeswitches (from motorless bike to motorized bike in finals kilometers) were part of the setup.
After the 28th of January we may have to revitalize this thread:
http://forum.cyclingnews.imdserve.com/viewtopic.php?p=554604&sid=8c90048b3a4c1358219a1d354abbe04a#p554604
Re:
It was a pretty hardish/slow ITT (and wet IIRC). This (OP)-QS iteration has been notoriously good at TTs as well as "performing" in general. Could have just been they went hard on special prep for the day (and you'd never question those four being solid dopers).
The parallel is the 2008 Tour second ITT where Highroad and Slipstream both put a stack of riders in the top places. Blackcat will tell you that was all CERA power!
zlev11 said:
It was a pretty hardish/slow ITT (and wet IIRC). This (OP)-QS iteration has been notoriously good at TTs as well as "performing" in general. Could have just been they went hard on special prep for the day (and you'd never question those four being solid dopers).
The parallel is the 2008 Tour second ITT where Highroad and Slipstream both put a stack of riders in the top places. Blackcat will tell you that was all CERA power!
Of what exactly?
I'm not sure myself what it means but it would be nice if it is related to motor use as it would make it easy to spot other cheaters of the era.
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/tour-de-france-winning-bikes-34375/
The aero wing on the seat tube was perhaps not suitable for motor use.
convinced that it is related to motor use.
and that bit you just quoted is another good find that fits in nicely.
there was speculation on twitter that Floyd was at it, too.
I think the speculation emerged from the simple need to explain why Floyd never spilled beans about Lance's use of motors.
Iirc, Landis did in fact have a few unexplained bike switches in 2006 TdF.
Landis, Contador, and Cance pre-2010 might all be interesting to revisit.
And what about Rasmussen suddenly finding his TT skills in 2007.
Sastre 2008 has been mentioned as possibly suspect, too, either here or on twitter.
and that bit you just quoted is another good find that fits in nicely.
there was speculation on twitter that Floyd was at it, too.
I think the speculation emerged from the simple need to explain why Floyd never spilled beans about Lance's use of motors.
Iirc, Landis did in fact have a few unexplained bike switches in 2006 TdF.
Landis, Contador, and Cance pre-2010 might all be interesting to revisit.
And what about Rasmussen suddenly finding his TT skills in 2007.
Sastre 2008 has been mentioned as possibly suspect, too, either here or on twitter.
Let's not get carried away. All the strong motor suspects are examples of very short bursts used to create racing gaps. Maybe they are in the ballpark of say a 200W motor and 10 Wh (net). In theory that power might make you 1% quicker in an hour long ITT, in practice it would be less as you'd be delivering the extra power over a short period of time rather than constant. Climbing it's a little trickier as there is the weight penalty (although interesting interaction with the minimum weight) so it might not get you too much more than 1% either. This is of course making numbers up but we haven't had a working model properly analysed - AFAIK, may have missed something. These sorts of numbers aren't going to take too much of a difference against the big chargers and will not make up for being a bag short or something like that. If we suspect instances of Cancellara and Froome that would tend to support this given their incredible performances period, unless we suspect every performance of theirs "since forever".
But I'll play along, if I were to pick one out of nowhere it would be Contador 2009 as the earliest. He always had something extra that year, or at least was as good as 2007 while everyone else declined a little from there.
But I'll play along, if I were to pick one out of nowhere it would be Contador 2009 as the earliest. He always had something extra that year, or at least was as good as 2007 while everyone else declined a little from there.
^Fair points, and I was saying the same thing not long ago when I argued Cance's 2010 RVV was probably the terminus post quem for motors in the propeloton. I'd never seen anything similar from Lance or anybody before that.
Now, however, the indications are overwhelming that we are going to hear about Lance using motors ever since his comeback in 1999 or shortly after.
If this gets confirmed in the upcoming docu, we're in a whole new world.
Now, however, the indications are overwhelming that we are going to hear about Lance using motors ever since his comeback in 1999 or shortly after.
If this gets confirmed in the upcoming docu, we're in a whole new world.
Some interesting stuff in this 2003 thread
https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/ullrich-shimano.42999/
Ullrich must have a strong preference for hood shape. At Telecom, Coast and Bianchi he persisted with an older style hood on 10spd.
they must have even made him custom carbon levers, since thay were the pre-2000 shape, and these were never made as a carbon part...
Jan's mechanic used to put the older model Campy Record levers on Jan's bike because Jan liked the beefier hoods better.
https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/ullrich-shimano.42999/
Ullrich must have a strong preference for hood shape. At Telecom, Coast and Bianchi he persisted with an older style hood on 10spd.
they must have even made him custom carbon levers, since thay were the pre-2000 shape, and these were never made as a carbon part...
Jan's mechanic used to put the older model Campy Record levers on Jan's bike because Jan liked the beefier hoods better.
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Re:
And what evidence of motordoping is contained in these pics? One thing the twitter post got wrong was less cables under the bar tape, it's simply the angle of the pic as you can still see the cable coming out of the top of the downtube in the second pic but the cable is obscured by the handlebar. The back of the bike is cleaner so I suspect it's a different bike or someone started cleaning it before they were told to stop. While I do suspect motors are being used in the peloton these two pictures are pretty far fetched in regards to evidence of motordoping.
sniper said:
And what evidence of motordoping is contained in these pics? One thing the twitter post got wrong was less cables under the bar tape, it's simply the angle of the pic as you can still see the cable coming out of the top of the downtube in the second pic but the cable is obscured by the handlebar. The back of the bike is cleaner so I suspect it's a different bike or someone started cleaning it before they were told to stop. While I do suspect motors are being used in the peloton these two pictures are pretty far fetched in regards to evidence of motordoping.
it's no evidence of motordoping.
it's evidence of him changing his wheel for no apparent reason, and also seemingly lying about it or covering it up ("my dirty bike").
motorization is merely one possible explanation.
it would nicely explain (a) the wheel change and (b) his surprise win in one of the most prestigious races of the year, after an injury (iirc), and being up against doped-to-the-gills competitors.
if you have an alternative explanation that covers (a) and (b), I'd be happy to hear it.
it's evidence of him changing his wheel for no apparent reason, and also seemingly lying about it or covering it up ("my dirty bike").
motorization is merely one possible explanation.
it would nicely explain (a) the wheel change and (b) his surprise win in one of the most prestigious races of the year, after an injury (iirc), and being up against doped-to-the-gills competitors.
if you have an alternative explanation that covers (a) and (b), I'd be happy to hear it.
Re:
I think 200 Watts would be serious overkill. You don't want to pop a wheelie. You just want to be able to ride away when you want. I think even 50-60 Watts would explain the kinds of things we've seen. And it would be far simpler to build, too. Not the motor so much as the motor driver, battery and electronics. And yes, this has been feasible since the late 90's. I started my career in a lithium ion battery R&D facility. By the late 90's batteries had been developed and were being manufactured for this type of application. High power density given priority over high capacity. This was done for the portable tool market - you know, small, light, high torque motors in the 50 Watt range. The technology has been feasible for a very long time. It became exceptionally cheap circa 2010.
I'd be surprised if several variations haven't been created. Seat tube motor, yeah. Femke got caught with one and several places sell them online. But I'm sure someone's tried hub motors, wireless controls, and all kinds of things we can't even think of. Madness not to since the engineering effort is small.
John Swanson
Ferminal said:
I think 200 Watts would be serious overkill. You don't want to pop a wheelie. You just want to be able to ride away when you want. I think even 50-60 Watts would explain the kinds of things we've seen. And it would be far simpler to build, too. Not the motor so much as the motor driver, battery and electronics. And yes, this has been feasible since the late 90's. I started my career in a lithium ion battery R&D facility. By the late 90's batteries had been developed and were being manufactured for this type of application. High power density given priority over high capacity. This was done for the portable tool market - you know, small, light, high torque motors in the 50 Watt range. The technology has been feasible for a very long time. It became exceptionally cheap circa 2010.
I'd be surprised if several variations haven't been created. Seat tube motor, yeah. Femke got caught with one and several places sell them online. But I'm sure someone's tried hub motors, wireless controls, and all kinds of things we can't even think of. Madness not to since the engineering effort is small.
John Swanson
An explanation about the battery tech: if you want to drive a 200 Watt motor from a 7.4V battery it needs to supply more than 20 amps. For the regular cobalt oxide cathodes, the internal impedance prevents you from doing that. So new cathode materials were needed. The spinel materials used could provide the need amps (power density) but they weighed more, had lower capacity and were initially more expensive. However, they were light years ahead of NiMH technology. They were also the first steps at creating batteries for electric cars.
Even with spinel materials, generating 200 Watts is difficult. You'd need to run more batteries in series to boost the voltage. But... the charging circuitry has to monitor each of the series cells. This is more complicated and expensive. Now 50 to 60 Watts. No problem, The spinel cells can easily provide the 6 amps needed in a two cell configuration.
The only thing that's really changed in the last ten years is that everything has gotten dirt cheap. In 2000 a two cell pack would cost more than $100. Today, you can find a similar pack for $6 (TVC Mall)
John Swanson
Even with spinel materials, generating 200 Watts is difficult. You'd need to run more batteries in series to boost the voltage. But... the charging circuitry has to monitor each of the series cells. This is more complicated and expensive. Now 50 to 60 Watts. No problem, The spinel cells can easily provide the 6 amps needed in a two cell configuration.
The only thing that's really changed in the last ten years is that everything has gotten dirt cheap. In 2000 a two cell pack would cost more than $100. Today, you can find a similar pack for $6 (TVC Mall)
John Swanson
In my experience I have known people who doped. Mostly for medical issues.. train months and months..a a health setback.and rather than regroup and target something else, dope not to miss your objectives.
Older riders realizing that regular jobs await them and dope to go out with some results and maybe the good showing will get them some coaching clients or a product rep job.
Mechanical doped riders look to have put lots and lots of time into it..all the chemical dopers I know went to Mexico or got gassed in Poland and stayed in Berlin a couple of days before returning home..in short..not a long or well thought out plan but instead an emotional knee jerk.
cycling better start to see itself as killing itself from within..the power that each countries federation has is not great but the if the pooled money is what the UCI is using to oversee the sports future.. then there is no future. I used to have what I thought was a semi compassionate view of dopers..as desperate people..but after these last years I realize I was wrong and that everyone is just a bunch of selfish ***..
Older riders realizing that regular jobs await them and dope to go out with some results and maybe the good showing will get them some coaching clients or a product rep job.
Mechanical doped riders look to have put lots and lots of time into it..all the chemical dopers I know went to Mexico or got gassed in Poland and stayed in Berlin a couple of days before returning home..in short..not a long or well thought out plan but instead an emotional knee jerk.
cycling better start to see itself as killing itself from within..the power that each countries federation has is not great but the if the pooled money is what the UCI is using to oversee the sports future.. then there is no future. I used to have what I thought was a semi compassionate view of dopers..as desperate people..but after these last years I realize I was wrong and that everyone is just a bunch of selfish ***..
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