Thought you might enjoy this. Seat tube motor in a road bike, back in the (looks like) 1970s.
https://youtu.be/9YXDL7P7_zY
https://youtu.be/9YXDL7P7_zY
Re: Re:
it's from 1979 - they say it weighs 2.5 kg using ordinary tech (can be much less using lighter materials) and gives 40 watts for 45 min, and you can recharge by spinning "freely" during descents (funny remark: gives nothing to the cycling "specialists", it's meant for women so that they can follow their husbands on weekend rides)
google found also this
http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/the-bike-with-the-hidden-motor-from-1979-video/
sniper said:
it's from 1979 - they say it weighs 2.5 kg using ordinary tech (can be much less using lighter materials) and gives 40 watts for 45 min, and you can recharge by spinning "freely" during descents (funny remark: gives nothing to the cycling "specialists", it's meant for women so that they can follow their husbands on weekend rides)
google found also this
http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/the-bike-with-the-hidden-motor-from-1979-video/
cheers!doperhopper said:
brilliant stuff.
seems we need to rethink the last three decades of cycling or so.
- Mar 13, 2009
- 16,853
- 2
- 0
Re:
inandofthemself, all of these specious rationale, are evidence of doping. They are, but they are so entertaining, lets the games go on. Where is J-Lo or J-Law or some two syllable hollywood hyphenate n alliterationz. The Hunger Games. Let froome-dag, F-dawg fight for his dinner. let the games begin!
as D-Queued pithy inimatable maxim, marginal gains aint a rounding error on a comprehensive doping program from Schumi (dr michele ferrari)*
i used a little artistic licence there*, but I reserve the right to use artistic licence.
sniper said:
inandofthemself, all of these specious rationale, are evidence of doping. They are, but they are so entertaining, lets the games go on. Where is J-Lo or J-Law or some two syllable hollywood hyphenate n alliterationz. The Hunger Games. Let froome-dag, F-dawg fight for his dinner. let the games begin!
as D-Queued pithy inimatable maxim, marginal gains aint a rounding error on a comprehensive doping program from Schumi (dr michele ferrari)*
i used a little artistic licence there*, but I reserve the right to use artistic licence.
Re: Re:
This particular motor was surely never used in competition. It has a bottom bracket freewheel, and I think no freewheel on the rear hub. So it would be really obvious that something is wrong, when the rider stops pedaling for a moment but the chainrings keep rotating. Not to mention the visual difference and the noise.
But the point is, that crank drive technology has been around for a long time. I am not particularly convinced by the videos of Cancellara and others riding, but because the technology exists, and creating is part of human nature, I personally believe stealthy crank drive motors have been tried in competition.
I personally "think" (= suspect, surmise, guess; =/= know for sure) that attempts at motor doping was rare, maybe almost non existent, when riders could freely inject EPO and do blood bags. But I also think motor doping likely started to get tried more after drug doping became trickier and less effective (like, when climb power started to decline.)
doperhopper said:
This particular motor was surely never used in competition. It has a bottom bracket freewheel, and I think no freewheel on the rear hub. So it would be really obvious that something is wrong, when the rider stops pedaling for a moment but the chainrings keep rotating. Not to mention the visual difference and the noise.
But the point is, that crank drive technology has been around for a long time. I am not particularly convinced by the videos of Cancellara and others riding, but because the technology exists, and creating is part of human nature, I personally believe stealthy crank drive motors have been tried in competition.
I personally "think" (= suspect, surmise, guess; =/= know for sure) that attempts at motor doping was rare, maybe almost non existent, when riders could freely inject EPO and do blood bags. But I also think motor doping likely started to get tried more after drug doping became trickier and less effective (like, when climb power started to decline.)
I've been giving a little more thought to this idea of an electromagnetic rim drive.
Let's suppose we want a rim drive that will be as hard as possible to detect. This means
- No external wiring, obviously
- No permanent magnets, because the UCI is using tablets to scan bikes. A tablet (iPad, etc) contains a very sensitive magnetometer (magnetic field sensor), which is how the tablet knows what compass direction it is facing and how it is oriented in yaw (vertical or horizontal), by detecting the earth's magnetic field. Naturally, this sensor will also detect permanent magnets, as well as ferrous metal (iron, steel), and you can download various iPad and iPhone apps for this (of varying quality). An iPad app that uses the magnetometer may be erratic in detecting a small piece of ferrous metal but will easily detect even a small magnet, if held close enough.
More info:
https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/basic-sensors-in/9781449309480/ch05.html
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15380632/in-ios-what-is-the-difference-between-the-magnetic-field-values-from-the-core-l
- No change to a stock bike's dimensions or external appearance, naturally
- Only a modest increase in weight, both because racers want light bikes and also because a bike that is 2 kg heavier than normal is easily identified. Pro bikes almost always weigh within 0.5 kg of the 6.8 kg limit. GCN recently did a video where they weighed dozens of bikes at the Tour of Dubai (the idea was to have the riders guess their bikes' weight, and the riders were usually within 300 g).
One way to do this might be to conceal electromagnets (solenoid) in the chainstays, and pieces of ferrous steel in the carbon rims. By switching the electromagnet on and off, timed precisely to the rotation of the wheel and thus the position of the steel inserts, in theory we might be able to rotate the wheel. But will this work?
I used some online electromagnet (solenoid) calculators. Suppose we embed an electromagnetic coil in the chainstay, that is 25.4 mm in diameter and 25.4 mm in length, with 200 turns of 0.1 mm electromagnet wire. Suppose we conceal a 22 volt battery in the downtube, this could be two LiPoly batteries in series, each 11 V. And suppose the end of the coil in the chainstay is 20 mm distance from the steel insert in the rim, when the rim is rotated so that the insert is lined up with the chainstay.
One calculator tells us the coil has 35 ohm resistance, and our battery can push 0.6 amp through it, using 14 watts.
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Coil-Physical-Properties-Calculator.phtml
Another calculator tells us pushing 0.6 amps through this coil will create a magnetic force (attraction) on the steel insert that is 0.003 lb (or 0.012 Newton if you prefer). But that is for an air core solenoid. If we use an iron core in the coil, the magnetic field in the core will be about 200X greater than with an air core. As a first estimate, let's say the magnetic force on the steel insert is also 200X greater, or 0.6 lb (24 N).
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Magnets/Solenoid-Force-Calculator.phtml
But wait - pulling the rim sideways toward the chainstay doesn't help rotate the wheel, as all of that force is at 90 degrees to the tangent of the rim, meaning zero force that is actually tangent to the rim. So the electromagnet has to turn on before the steel insert reaches the chainstay, stay on as the wheel rotates, then turn off right as the insert is lined up with the chainstay. Let's suppose the electromagnet turns on when the insert is 28 mm from the chainstay, meaning a line from center of the coil face to the center of the steel insert is at a 45 degree angle to the tangent of the rim. At that point the insert is 20 mm of rotation away from being lined up with the chainstay. Now, at that 28 mm distance, the total force for an air core solenoid is 0.001 lb (0.006 N), so lets say an iron core solenoid will produce total force 0.2 lb (1.2 N), and the component of that force that is tangent to the rim and thus actually rotating the wheel is 0.7 x 0.2 lb = 0.14 lb (0.8 N). We have two electromagnets, one in each stay, so call it 0.28 lb (1.6 N). Let's assume that this 0.28 lb of force tangent to the rim is constant from when the electromagnet is turned on to when it is turned off (that is generous: actually the force tangent to the rim will decline as the insert gets closer to being in line with the chainstay).
You see where this is going. Our stealthy electromagnetic rim drive is able to generate a mere 0.28 lb of tangent force to rotate the rim, and it can only generate that force for a fraction of a second for each steel insert, since the rear wheel is rotating at about 250 rpm at 30 km/h. We'll conceal as many steel inserts in the rim as we can, but we are limited by geometry to about 30 since the electromagnet has to switch on when it is significantly closer to the insert approaching the electromagnet than to the insert that has just passed the electromagnet. So say 30 brief pulses of 0.28 lb force, and the total duration of the pulses is about 30% of each wheel revolution. 0.28 x 0.3 = 0.08 lb of average tangent force over the entire wheel rotation.
0.08 lb is enough tangent force to spin the rear wheel when the bike is on a stand, since bike hubs have very little friction. But this isn't enough to propel the bike on the ground. This electromagnetic rim drive works in theory, but not in practice.
Could we make a practical electromagnetic rim drive?. Yes, but we will have to sacrifice the features that make it stealthy. This most important thing is that we will need to position our electromagnets much closer to the steel inserts, so that the chainstay is barely 1 mm separated from the rim. If you replace 28 mm by 3 mm, the total force is 100X greater, so now we have 8 lb tangent force. If we replace the steel inserts with magnets, we can probably increase the tangent force by a considerable amount further. And if we use a bigger and heavier battery with higher voltage and push more current through the solenoids, we can have even more force. This is how you might build an electric motorcycle . . . But it couldn't possibly escape detection if you tried to pretend it was a normal bike.
TL
R version:
After more study, I still think the Gazzetta article on $200,000 undetectable electromagnetic bike wheels is fiction. As pointed out by actual technical experts in some of the follow up articles in other media, this sort of rim drive might work in theory, but very probably not in practice.
Let's suppose we want a rim drive that will be as hard as possible to detect. This means
- No external wiring, obviously
- No permanent magnets, because the UCI is using tablets to scan bikes. A tablet (iPad, etc) contains a very sensitive magnetometer (magnetic field sensor), which is how the tablet knows what compass direction it is facing and how it is oriented in yaw (vertical or horizontal), by detecting the earth's magnetic field. Naturally, this sensor will also detect permanent magnets, as well as ferrous metal (iron, steel), and you can download various iPad and iPhone apps for this (of varying quality). An iPad app that uses the magnetometer may be erratic in detecting a small piece of ferrous metal but will easily detect even a small magnet, if held close enough.
More info:
https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/basic-sensors-in/9781449309480/ch05.html
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15380632/in-ios-what-is-the-difference-between-the-magnetic-field-values-from-the-core-l
- No change to a stock bike's dimensions or external appearance, naturally
- Only a modest increase in weight, both because racers want light bikes and also because a bike that is 2 kg heavier than normal is easily identified. Pro bikes almost always weigh within 0.5 kg of the 6.8 kg limit. GCN recently did a video where they weighed dozens of bikes at the Tour of Dubai (the idea was to have the riders guess their bikes' weight, and the riders were usually within 300 g).
One way to do this might be to conceal electromagnets (solenoid) in the chainstays, and pieces of ferrous steel in the carbon rims. By switching the electromagnet on and off, timed precisely to the rotation of the wheel and thus the position of the steel inserts, in theory we might be able to rotate the wheel. But will this work?
I used some online electromagnet (solenoid) calculators. Suppose we embed an electromagnetic coil in the chainstay, that is 25.4 mm in diameter and 25.4 mm in length, with 200 turns of 0.1 mm electromagnet wire. Suppose we conceal a 22 volt battery in the downtube, this could be two LiPoly batteries in series, each 11 V. And suppose the end of the coil in the chainstay is 20 mm distance from the steel insert in the rim, when the rim is rotated so that the insert is lined up with the chainstay.
One calculator tells us the coil has 35 ohm resistance, and our battery can push 0.6 amp through it, using 14 watts.
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Coil-Physical-Properties-Calculator.phtml
Another calculator tells us pushing 0.6 amps through this coil will create a magnetic force (attraction) on the steel insert that is 0.003 lb (or 0.012 Newton if you prefer). But that is for an air core solenoid. If we use an iron core in the coil, the magnetic field in the core will be about 200X greater than with an air core. As a first estimate, let's say the magnetic force on the steel insert is also 200X greater, or 0.6 lb (24 N).
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Magnets/Solenoid-Force-Calculator.phtml
But wait - pulling the rim sideways toward the chainstay doesn't help rotate the wheel, as all of that force is at 90 degrees to the tangent of the rim, meaning zero force that is actually tangent to the rim. So the electromagnet has to turn on before the steel insert reaches the chainstay, stay on as the wheel rotates, then turn off right as the insert is lined up with the chainstay. Let's suppose the electromagnet turns on when the insert is 28 mm from the chainstay, meaning a line from center of the coil face to the center of the steel insert is at a 45 degree angle to the tangent of the rim. At that point the insert is 20 mm of rotation away from being lined up with the chainstay. Now, at that 28 mm distance, the total force for an air core solenoid is 0.001 lb (0.006 N), so lets say an iron core solenoid will produce total force 0.2 lb (1.2 N), and the component of that force that is tangent to the rim and thus actually rotating the wheel is 0.7 x 0.2 lb = 0.14 lb (0.8 N). We have two electromagnets, one in each stay, so call it 0.28 lb (1.6 N). Let's assume that this 0.28 lb of force tangent to the rim is constant from when the electromagnet is turned on to when it is turned off (that is generous: actually the force tangent to the rim will decline as the insert gets closer to being in line with the chainstay).
You see where this is going. Our stealthy electromagnetic rim drive is able to generate a mere 0.28 lb of tangent force to rotate the rim, and it can only generate that force for a fraction of a second for each steel insert, since the rear wheel is rotating at about 250 rpm at 30 km/h. We'll conceal as many steel inserts in the rim as we can, but we are limited by geometry to about 30 since the electromagnet has to switch on when it is significantly closer to the insert approaching the electromagnet than to the insert that has just passed the electromagnet. So say 30 brief pulses of 0.28 lb force, and the total duration of the pulses is about 30% of each wheel revolution. 0.28 x 0.3 = 0.08 lb of average tangent force over the entire wheel rotation.
0.08 lb is enough tangent force to spin the rear wheel when the bike is on a stand, since bike hubs have very little friction. But this isn't enough to propel the bike on the ground. This electromagnetic rim drive works in theory, but not in practice.
Could we make a practical electromagnetic rim drive?. Yes, but we will have to sacrifice the features that make it stealthy. This most important thing is that we will need to position our electromagnets much closer to the steel inserts, so that the chainstay is barely 1 mm separated from the rim. If you replace 28 mm by 3 mm, the total force is 100X greater, so now we have 8 lb tangent force. If we replace the steel inserts with magnets, we can probably increase the tangent force by a considerable amount further. And if we use a bigger and heavier battery with higher voltage and push more current through the solenoids, we can have even more force. This is how you might build an electric motorcycle . . . But it couldn't possibly escape detection if you tried to pretend it was a normal bike.
TL
R version:After more study, I still think the Gazzetta article on $200,000 undetectable electromagnetic bike wheels is fiction. As pointed out by actual technical experts in some of the follow up articles in other media, this sort of rim drive might work in theory, but very probably not in practice.
jyl,
1. there is no need AT ALL to factor in (un)detectability.
you should take as a starting point that (a) nobody is checking; (b) if they do check, the checks are announced and almost only on finish bikes; (c) Cookson's ties to Sky are multiple; if Sky falls, Cookson and his son fall; Sky will test positive for motorization when hell freezes over.
2. you spent how much time making this quite brilliant set-up? maybe a day? with what budget? no budget?
now imagine a group of five, six sports scientists working on this for months on end, with, say, a budget of 500,000 euro, and lots of prospects for extended funding. Good money. Lots of time.
Lots of expertise & know-how. Lots of motivation. State of the art tecnhology. Lots of omerta.
1. there is no need AT ALL to factor in (un)detectability.
you should take as a starting point that (a) nobody is checking; (b) if they do check, the checks are announced and almost only on finish bikes; (c) Cookson's ties to Sky are multiple; if Sky falls, Cookson and his son fall; Sky will test positive for motorization when hell freezes over.
2. you spent how much time making this quite brilliant set-up? maybe a day? with what budget? no budget?
now imagine a group of five, six sports scientists working on this for months on end, with, say, a budget of 500,000 euro, and lots of prospects for extended funding. Good money. Lots of time.
Lots of expertise & know-how. Lots of motivation. State of the art tecnhology. Lots of omerta.
Re:
As to 1. You don't seem to understand, we are not talking detection by the UCI alone, we are talking about a bike that would look so different that any TV viewer would have to wonder WTF is going on. Trust me coils wrapped around the outside of seat stay would finitely attract attention from all and everybody. Not least you yourself would have pictures up in this thread within a split second.
As to 2. You really do not seem to grasp the physics do you? The fact that someone with a working brain, Google and reasonable knowledge of physics can calculate that in practice it will probably not work doesn't mean anything. You can't change basic physics by throwing EUR 500,000 at it. Physics aren't corrupt.
sniper said:
As to 1. You don't seem to understand, we are not talking detection by the UCI alone, we are talking about a bike that would look so different that any TV viewer would have to wonder WTF is going on. Trust me coils wrapped around the outside of seat stay would finitely attract attention from all and everybody. Not least you yourself would have pictures up in this thread within a split second.
As to 2. You really do not seem to grasp the physics do you? The fact that someone with a working brain, Google and reasonable knowledge of physics can calculate that in practice it will probably not work doesn't mean anything. You can't change basic physics by throwing EUR 500,000 at it. Physics aren't corrupt.
Re: Re:
but the gazzetta guy thinks it is possible.
i don't see any clear-cut motivation for that guy to invent stories like this.
the fact that jyl can't get his head around the physics doesn't mean a group of specialists with a royal budget can't either.
with enough of a budget and enough specialists working on it, one could get some not-too-conspicuous, wheel-driven system working. It would be grossly insulting to the state of present-day physics and sports technology to suggest one can't.
the guy in the gazzetta doesn't make any mention of coils wrapped around the outside of the seat stay, though.GJB123 said:
sure, this level of physics is way above my paygrade.
but the gazzetta guy thinks it is possible.
i don't see any clear-cut motivation for that guy to invent stories like this.
the fact that jyl can't get his head around the physics doesn't mean a group of specialists with a royal budget can't either.
with enough of a budget and enough specialists working on it, one could get some not-too-conspicuous, wheel-driven system working. It would be grossly insulting to the state of present-day physics and sports technology to suggest one can't.
nice vid of the Copenhagen Wheel here:
https://www.superpedestrian.com/
it was patented by MIT in 2009.
we're 7 years on from that.
https://www.superpedestrian.com/
it was patented by MIT in 2009.
we're 7 years on from that.
Re:
But 7 years on, $6.1m spent in development costs, and at August 2015 not a single wheel shipped according to this: http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/copenhagen-wheel-is-nearly-ready-to-roll-again/018302
Plus it relies on oversized hubs...
sniper said:
But 7 years on, $6.1m spent in development costs, and at August 2015 not a single wheel shipped according to this: http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/copenhagen-wheel-is-nearly-ready-to-roll-again/018302
Plus it relies on oversized hubs...
- May 26, 2010
- 28,143
- 5
- 0
Why the UCI is so good at busting cheaters? Here's Brian Cookson nabbing a big time cheater.....
https://mobile.twitter.com/briancooksonuci/status/696945059791552512
Oh wait.....
https://mobile.twitter.com/briancooksonuci/status/696945059791552512
Oh wait.....
Re: Re:
Freewheel in the chainset, so you stop pedalling and the chainrings keep going round, might that not have been a bit of a give away?
Benotti69 said:
Freewheel in the chainset, so you stop pedalling and the chainrings keep going round, might that not have been a bit of a give away?
Re: Re:
Of course that doesn't mean the technique is not available to teams like Sky.
And it goes to show that we shouldn't stare blindly at electromagnetism.
A variety of motorization systems have been, are, and will be available, especially at the high end.
Teams like Sky, guys with big contracts like Cancellara and Hesjedal.
Who's using what is going to be anybody's guess. Like with old school doping.
Although, based on the footage we can make 'educated' guesses.
If Hesjedal used anything, it was a wheel drive system.
Cancellara -> hub-based "silent pro".
Froome 2013? My guess is a wheel drive system along the lines of the Copenhagen wheel. Funny thing is, the l'Equipe article last year spread rumors about Sky riders using their powermeter to activate some motorsystem.
It would nicely fit with the Copenhagen system.
Amateurs and continental pro's: some variant of the silent pro for simple financial reasons.
ok, thanks. good to scrutinize this stuff.Hawkwood said:
Of course that doesn't mean the technique is not available to teams like Sky.
And it goes to show that we shouldn't stare blindly at electromagnetism.
A variety of motorization systems have been, are, and will be available, especially at the high end.
Teams like Sky, guys with big contracts like Cancellara and Hesjedal.
Who's using what is going to be anybody's guess. Like with old school doping.
Although, based on the footage we can make 'educated' guesses.
If Hesjedal used anything, it was a wheel drive system.
Cancellara -> hub-based "silent pro".
Froome 2013? My guess is a wheel drive system along the lines of the Copenhagen wheel. Funny thing is, the l'Equipe article last year spread rumors about Sky riders using their powermeter to activate some motorsystem.
It would nicely fit with the Copenhagen system.
Amateurs and continental pro's: some variant of the silent pro for simple financial reasons.
- May 26, 2010
- 28,143
- 5
- 0
Re: Re:
No one is looking!
Some people thought it was impossible that 'moto doping' was happening, as it would be noticed, pros were somehow above it, noise, wheels turning when they shouldn't etc etc......but then BOOM, bike found with a motor at a UCI WC event.
Sorry but when 200 riders are moving in a group who is looking for a motor in the peloton?
Hawkwood said:
No one is looking!
Some people thought it was impossible that 'moto doping' was happening, as it would be noticed, pros were somehow above it, noise, wheels turning when they shouldn't etc etc......but then BOOM, bike found with a motor at a UCI WC event.
Sorry but when 200 riders are moving in a group who is looking for a motor in the peloton?
Re: Re:
If Sky are using mechanical doping, and it kind of has the looks of it, Cookson/BC/Sky will not allow anybody in the propeloton to test positive for motors, as it could come back to haunt them.
and don't expect to see a prorider get busted anytime soon.Benotti69 said:
If Sky are using mechanical doping, and it kind of has the looks of it, Cookson/BC/Sky will not allow anybody in the propeloton to test positive for motors, as it could come back to haunt them.
Re:
Some very good points here. I am a fan of Formula 1 motor racing and the Americas Cup yacht races. Part of what I find fascinating is how teams scratch and claw their way to minute technical advantages over other teams while simultaneously appearing to stay within the rules. I am not suggesting that Sky has similar budgets or similar end-points (selling more cars for the constructors or satisfying Larry Ellisons' ego) but I do think that some unimaginable progress on motorised doping could be made by a rich team if they wanted to do so AND could compartmentalise this info in a way so as not to get caught. Look how far US Postal/Discovery was able to get away with their doping until they got tripped up by Lances ego trip against Floyd.....Lance always bragged about what they got away with to Floyd!!!!
sniper said:
Some very good points here. I am a fan of Formula 1 motor racing and the Americas Cup yacht races. Part of what I find fascinating is how teams scratch and claw their way to minute technical advantages over other teams while simultaneously appearing to stay within the rules. I am not suggesting that Sky has similar budgets or similar end-points (selling more cars for the constructors or satisfying Larry Ellisons' ego) but I do think that some unimaginable progress on motorised doping could be made by a rich team if they wanted to do so AND could compartmentalise this info in a way so as not to get caught. Look how far US Postal/Discovery was able to get away with their doping until they got tripped up by Lances ego trip against Floyd.....Lance always bragged about what they got away with to Floyd!!!!
Re: Re:
and what better way to stay safe than to have the UCI president's son on the payroll (in addition to numerous other conflicting ties between Cookson/Sky/BC)
exactemundo.arthurvandelay said:
and what better way to stay safe than to have the UCI president's son on the payroll (in addition to numerous other conflicting ties between Cookson/Sky/BC)
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