Motor doping thread

[Cannibal72]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

very good post...I think you describe the mechanisms of omerta very very well.

only the boldfaced...that is completely off.
As discussed in the Cance thread yesterday, it takes only the rider and perhaps one mechanic to install the Gruber Assist. A rider could also easily install it himself. Takes 5 to 10 mins tops. Nobody needs to know.
Just check google/youtube for "Gruber assist" and you find the relevant manuals and footage. Or check the Cance thread posts from yesterday. The easiness of installing the Gruber Assist and "silent pro" systems has also been highlighted previously in the "the doped bike exists!" thread.
Sure, depending on the race you'd probably need one mechanic to be in on the plot. But it definitely doesn't require "immense coordination to keep it secret".

Er, no. For such a conspiracy to succeed, it would need the full backing of everyone in a team, especially given that this technology is indisputably in its infancy. The idea to install a motor did not occur to Cancellara or Hesjadel on a whim, after all; the earliest adopters of EPO were part of a team (e.g. Carrera Jeans), and independent usage didn't really take off for 15 years or so. The collaboration of absolutely everybody on the team would have been utterly essential: what happens when the mechanics - every single one of which but one is out of the loop, in your hypothesis - need to repair his bike, which even people on an internet forum who can only see the bike from a TV screen see is suspicious?

There have been very few cases of teams not backing fully the cheating in the sport. So it is quite possible for everyone on the team to go with the flow. Happens in sport all the time. It is accepted culture of the sport to cheat to win.

Are you saying that the mechanics wouldn't be told or know about the conspiracy? I'm sorry, I don't find that plausible, especially given that this is a profoundly experimental way of cheating.

 

[sniper]

I think Benotti suggests it would be quite normal viz. unremarkable that a team of people are in on the cheating, be it PEDs or mechanical cheating. The omerta at present (post-Lance) seems stronger than ever.

Sure, there is a risk that a disgruntled employer starts talking at some point, but part of the game is to minimize that risk by keeping everybody happy.

 

[Cannibal72]

In that case, I entirely agree. It took a purely coincidental raid by the Belgian police to get Voet, the first soeigneur to talk, after all. No reason for mechanics to be fundamentally more moral.

 

[Archibald]

be interested to hear TexPat's input on this...

 

[blackcat]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Er, no. For such a conspiracy to succeed, it would need the full backing of everyone in a team, especially given that this technology is indisputably in its infancy. The idea to install a motor did not occur to Cancellara or Hesjadel on a whim, after all; the earliest adopters of EPO were part of a team (e.g. Carrera Jeans), and independent usage didn't really take off for 15 years or so. The collaboration of absolutely everybody on the team would have been utterly essential: what happens when the mechanics - every single one of which but one is out of the loop, in your hypothesis - need to repair his bike, which even people on an internet forum who can only see the bike from a TV screen see is suspicious?

Insider outsider rule.

I am not completely convinced, but I can see how a conspiracy can manifest, and stay schtum

also, it requires the cycling commentariat to offer a forum, or Ballester/Walsh and l'Equipe.

otherwise, the story is destined to realm of dustbin conspiracy

see Helmut's post

You have to stratify the media. You can’t expect a top strata news organization like the New York Times – and it is print journalists who mostly do this work – to give a rat’s ass about someone like, for example, a Tom Danielson. Armstrong: clearly a different beast in terms of coverage since he has celebrity outside of cycling.

(Sidebar: In defense of the media reference Armstrong, you have to balance that coverage in perspective with 9-11, Afghanistan and the Iraq rematch, all going down during this timeframe. Comparatively, an Armstrong doping piece is uninteresting, unimportant and not even on an editor’s radar. Although, there was SI. They probably should’ve looked at it a little closer. )

For something like the Danielson story, that work has to be done by Velonews, Cyclingnews, Pez... In other words, a news organization on the lower rungs of the media strata that cover that specific sport, this case cycling. Problem with this is, those reporters are cozy with the athletes. This is true with sports reporting in general. It’s like that everywhere, every sport. The only way around it is to have a dedicated doping reporter on staff who doesn’t interact with the athletes in any other way. I’ll bet that any reporter covering cycling in North American has at some point sat down for a beer with an athlete whom they were reporting on or had reported on. I’ve done it myself. It probably happens everywhere.

Look, I’m a fan of professional cycling not despite the doping but in large part because of it. The doping makes it real. Not the performances. The performances are unreal. But when an athlete gets caught up in an investigation or pisses hot, that’s when things get real. That’s when all parties involved go into crisis mode, spinning truthiness, marginal gains, special diets and high cadence. People’s livelihoods and reputations hang in the balance. Millions of dollars at stake. And it’s all based on a lie.

High drama. You can’t make this stuff up.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

There have been very few cases of teams not backing fully the cheating in the sport. So it is quite possible for everyone on the team to go with the flow. Happens in sport all the time. It is accepted culture of the sport to cheat to win.

milgram experiment

we are a tribal species.

and there are multiple barriers to entry of those with an independence/autonomy/agency where they can blow the lid. By the time they get to the elite, they are card-carrying tribal warriors. fellow travelers


The point to speak out, is at a much lower tier, and that is where they are weeded out

 

[sniper]

Re:

In that case, I entirely agree. It took a purely coincidental raid by the Belgian police to get Voet, the first soeigneur to talk, after all. No reason for mechanics to be fundamentally more moral.

one of the few good things David Millar ever said or wrote is in Racing in the Dark where he paints an unambiguous picture of the true role of soigneurs on cycling teams: they're there to organize (and often also administer) PEDs.
Of course they also do massages, but everyone can do that.

I'd picture cycling mechanics in a similar way.

 

[The Carrot]

Keeping secrets in an incestuous world like pro cycling is easy. It's a club which quickly ejects anyone they no longer want as a member so cheating will be tolerated, perhaps begrudgingly, but everyone from mechanics to riders won't 'rock the boat' because they want to stay in that boat.

There are very few intelligent people in pro cycling, but they do know that their prospects are very limited in the real world. Not many riders leave and go on to do anything else so they'll keep quiet and most want a cycling related gig after they retire. If you're a mechanic and you're doing your dream job on a pro team working with the latest bike equipment and someone tells you to charge a motor battery, you'll keep schtum and do it if you don't want to end up at your local bike shop fixing toddlers' bikes.

Oh and if anyone wants some examples of how badly whistleblowers are treated, read this: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/22/there-were-hundreds-of-us-crying-out-for-help-afterlife-of-whistleblower

 

[jmdirt]

Sorry if this has already been posted, it seems like RH's rear wheel has extra juice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLMfzLTc8M

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Oops

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Oops

That's shocking!

An Aussie with an extensive vocabulary!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Oops

That's shocking!

An Aussie with an extensive vocabulary!

i think people got the pun already, but thanks for expanding.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Oops

That's shocking!

An Aussie with an extensive vocabulary!

i think people got the pun already, but thanks for expanding.

You're so welcome! You seem to have missed mine.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re:

The omerta at present (post-Lance) seems stronger than ever.

Sure, there is a risk that a disgruntled employer starts talking at some point, but part of the game is to minimize that risk by keeping everybody happy.[/quote]

Sniper you sum it up very succinctly. There seems to be a collective (albeit unwritten and probably unspoken) gentlemens agreement to keep the omerta going. I detect a tone in a lot of the reporting and interviews I read that doping and talking about doping (and now motors) is frowned upon. There seemed to be a bit of a ray of sunshine as disinfectant that took hold after all of Lances excess, but it appears to have faded. I guess I will pack it in too and suspend my skepticism to be entertained, especially during the TDF which is a highlight for me every year.

Don't get me started on Athletics (Track and Field in the US) which appears to be headed for an all-time stinkfest in Rio. The news and rumors coming out of Russia, Kenya etc. are too depressing to be believed.

 

[Tienus]

It looks like Femke got an offer she couldnt refuse and quits cycling.
Its a shame as I would have loved to debunk the nonsense trial that was planned for tomorrow.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know, it could have gone two ways. Was it an offer she couldn't refuse? I'm not convinced there's that much that she or her entourage would have known that could have been wanted hidden. Difficult to imagine too many people sharing secrets with them other than other small fry, so not much ground she can raze. The alternative, given the reason she gives, is that the UCI obviously knew that the van den Driessches aren't going to be able to face down the cost (especially as they have another case pending in the family of course) so, although hardly stratospheric, the cost of fighting it would be too much unless they come quietly and quickly. Besides, we know from Menchov, Barredo and Hoste that just taking voluntary retirement doesn't mean the UCI won't slap on its own entirely pointless suspension afterwards.

The life ban proposed is, of course, entirely pointless anyway, any suspension of any substantial length or fine of substantial value would have played out the same way. She's got way too much baggage to have returned regardless. Therefore calling for a life suspension for somebody who's already unwelcome and obviously can't afford to fight their case even if they had one is just the UCI flexing its muscles rather pointlessly, just like quietly erasing Barredo's results long after they'd hounded him from the sport.

At least now a precedent is set.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

It looks like Femke got an offer she couldnt refuse and quits cycling.
Its a shame as I would have loved to debunk the nonsense trial that was planned for tomorrow.

Do you have a link?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

http://www.cxmagazine.com/femke-van-den-driessche-motorized-doping-retires-from-cyclocross?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CyclocrossMagazine+%28Cyclocross+Magazine%29

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

http://www.cxmagazine.com/femke-van-den-driessche-motorized-doping-retires-from-cyclocross?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CyclocrossMagazine+%28Cyclocross+Magazine%29

Ta.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I don't know, it could have gone two ways. Was it an offer she couldn't refuse? I'm not convinced there's that much that she or her entourage would have known that could have been wanted hidden. Difficult to imagine too many people sharing secrets with them other than other small fry, so not much ground she can raze. The alternative, given the reason she gives, is that the UCI obviously knew that the van den Driessches aren't going to be able to face down the cost (especially as they have another case pending in the family of course) so, although hardly stratospheric, the cost of fighting it would be too much unless they come quietly and quickly. Besides, we know from Menchov, Barredo and Hoste that just taking voluntary retirement doesn't mean the UCI won't slap on its own entirely pointless suspension afterwards.

The life ban proposed is, of course, entirely pointless anyway, any suspension of any substantial length or fine of substantial value would have played out the same way. She's got way too much baggage to have returned regardless. Therefore calling for a life suspension for somebody who's already unwelcome and obviously can't afford to fight their case even if they had one is just the UCI flexing its muscles rather pointlessly, just like quietly erasing Barredo's results long after they'd hounded him from the sport.

At least now a precedent is set.

Which is to quit the sport if caught with a motor.

Have the UCI actually handed down a lifetime ban?

Wonder how many motors are being used in granfondos.....

 

[Tienus]

Re:

I don't know, it could have gone two ways. Was it an offer she couldn't refuse? I'm not convinced there's that much that she or her entourage would have known that could have been wanted hidden. Difficult to imagine too many people sharing secrets with them other than other small fry, so not much ground she can raze. The alternative, given the reason she gives, is that the UCI obviously knew that the van den Driessches aren't going to be able to face down the cost (especially as they have another case pending in the family of course) so, although hardly stratospheric, the cost of fighting it would be too much unless they come quietly and quickly. Besides, we know from Menchov, Barredo and Hoste that just taking voluntary retirement doesn't mean the UCI won't slap on its own entirely pointless suspension afterwards.

The life ban proposed is, of course, entirely pointless anyway, any suspension of any substantial length or fine of substantial value would have played out the same way. She's got way too much baggage to have returned regardless. Therefore calling for a life suspension for somebody who's already unwelcome and obviously can't afford to fight their case even if they had one is just the UCI flexing its muscles rather pointlessly, just like quietly erasing Barredo's results long after they'd hounded him from the sport.

At least now a precedent is set.

I agree with regards to the life ban. I was thinking about the 50.000 euro penalty the UCI was seeking to impose. This would be worth fighting I suppose.
http://www.cxmagazine.com/rumors-rumblings-femke-van-den-driessche-ban-sven-nys-politics-lars-van-der-haar-yardwork

Everyone in the cyclocross community knew about Femke's freak bike with enormous downtube. Even the UCI knew about it. The fact that she was riding that particular bike during the race could have huge consequences for the Belgium team. I would be surprised if she gets a financial penalty.

 

[Tienus]

I think there will be no more trial which is weird on its own.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I don't know, it could have gone two ways. Was it an offer she couldn't refuse? I'm not convinced there's that much that she or her entourage would have known that could have been wanted hidden. Difficult to imagine too many people sharing secrets with them other than other small fry, so not much ground she can raze. The alternative, given the reason she gives, is that the UCI obviously knew that the van den Driessches aren't going to be able to face down the cost (especially as they have another case pending in the family of course) so, although hardly stratospheric, the cost of fighting it would be too much unless they come quietly and quickly. Besides, we know from Menchov, Barredo and Hoste that just taking voluntary retirement doesn't mean the UCI won't slap on its own entirely pointless suspension afterwards.

The life ban proposed is, of course, entirely pointless anyway, any suspension of any substantial length or fine of substantial value would have played out the same way. She's got way too much baggage to have returned regardless. Therefore calling for a life suspension for somebody who's already unwelcome and obviously can't afford to fight their case even if they had one is just the UCI flexing its muscles rather pointlessly, just like quietly erasing Barredo's results long after they'd hounded him from the sport.

At least now a precedent is set.

I agree with regards to the life ban. I was thinking about the 50.000 euro penalty the UCI was seeking to impose. This would be worth fighting I suppose.
http://www.cxmagazine.com/rumors-rumblings-femke-van-den-driessche-ban-sven-nys-politics-lars-van-der-haar-yardwork

Everyone in the cyclocross community knew about Femke's freak bike with enormous downtube. Even the UCI knew about it. The fact that she was riding that particular bike during the race could have huge consequences for the Belgium team. I would be surprised if she gets a financial penalty.

In standard democratic jurisprudence the hearing would take place first, allowing for the facts to be stated on record, a verdict would then be deliver and sentencing based on those facts and other factors (like previous infractions, age, chance of rehabilitation etc.).

It’s not normal to see the death penalty sort prior to a hearing. Most odd. The UCI has turned the clock back to medieval times.

I feel for the individual involved.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It should have serious consequences for the UCI as well if it turns out, as looks increasingly likely to be the case, they have been rather economical with the truth (the confiscated bike not being the bike raced, and so on, when it's abundantly clear that the bike which drew Kaptheijns' and Stultiens' comments was definitely the one raced at Zolder). Rudy de Bie can at least try to feign ignorance.

 

[carolina]

Did she actually ride the bike during the race or was the bike just in the her pit?