Motor doping thread

[blackcat]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

I think I agree with you that crank motors have probably been used before Femke. To what extent remains mer speculation.

That however isn't the narrative. The narrative is that some cyclist with large amounts of cash at their team's disposal (Sky, British Cycling) even went further and developed and used rim motors (and/or hub motors) because they would equally effective and even more difficult to detect as nobody would be long out for those types of cheating. As you quite rightly state that would hardly be necessary as it is more likely that even the crank motors would have gone undetected or blind eye would be turned for the right people or the right amounts of money.

So stating that rim motors are highly impractical from a physics point of view and highly unlikely because of the vost involved doesn't fit the narrative of some people here. Never mind that you wouldn't even have to go all out on something as elaborate as inventing and producing an undetectable rim motor because crank motors will go unnoticed anyway (either by choice or lack of testing). It's Occam's razor all over again really.

Re: Sky. It was merely Leinders, doping in preparation phase for the higher FtP, and then great doping logistics for the recovery doping during the Tour, and mebbe the leadup races like Dauphine.


It was not a motor for Sky.

Why?

In about 2009 Wiggins started his big-time doping transformation phase, when he came in at about 72kgs to race July, when all his previous "fighting weight(s)" at FDJ, at Credit Agricole, at Cofidis, at Columbia, were about ~3kgs heavier. And his Olympic track pursuit weight, prolly ~4kgs heavier.

But he lost more weight at Sky. Not a great deal more, but a few pounds more.

He was competitive GC with Garmin in that Giro.

Dial in his doping, dial up the quantities, and solve the recovery doping logistics and that missing element. He could always smash a 4 minute pursuit, so power was never a problem, just get the formula tweaked.

So = NO MOTOR



FROOME. Froome is looking down the barrel of no contract, and losing his career like John-Lee Augustyn, and Jamie Burrow another fantastic climber the Brits never saw the light of.

So around Tour of Poland Froome gets the promise of a Vuelta ride, and with Cound's help, he ramps up his doping, and John Robertson gives him the Aicar which costs 60thousand euros then, that with a handsome mark-up for John Robertson, because JR is an entrepreneur.

So Froome's transformation is the weightloss ~20lbs, from the weightloss drugs, and a new cocktail of Aicar, GW, lipotropin, GHRP and other peptides, cortisone.... and boom, the miracle transformation of Chris Froome.

NO MOTOR.

Can you see that if there was a motor, then the fight for leadership between Wiggins and Froome would have assumed altogether far different proportions.

Wiggins was indisputed team leader at Sky when he crossed over from Garmin. (was it 2010?)

If Sky have motor technology, they didn't, if Sky have motor technology, the internal politics and fight for the leadership mantle between Froome and Wiggins undertakes different proportions.

The wrenches(the mechanics) would have always shown fealty(loyalty) to Wiggins.

So how does Froome get his motor, and how does Froome get ascendancy in the team hierarchy?

ANSWER: He does not. There was no motor. There was only old fashioned doping and recovery doping with resources and a resource underwritten logistics route/map. If you wanna do conspiracy, talk about the "smuggler" for the logistics carrying a diplomat's bag and a diplomat's passport. *that was me engaging in conspiracy.

Because ofcourse, the diplomat's bag are off-limits to foreign officers.







Sniper, LOGIC will solve this one for you, not technology. All you need to do is understand the internal team competition, understand Froome and Wiggins transformation was down to new doping technology and weightloss from these new products.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

Clap skates were first introduced in lower ranks and female top level. This of course was highly visible and legal.
Pro men were extremely sceptical.
Women were winning big tournament before one man at big tournament level felt OK to give them a go in racing. As I recall at least.
Some couldn't get used to them initially and retired (Gerard van Velde) only to come back better than ever.

Cuz in cycling, guys have been skeptical that a 100+ Watt boost with the flick of a switch would be effective... Well now that a young woman has shown them (not Davide Cassani several years ago in a much publicized video) those strapping young lads might just give it a go!

John Swanson

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

their wheels aint rounder. they reinvented the wheels. the wheels needed to be designed much better, and have some muscular christianity and gordonstoun pluck inserted in them.

Actually I think the `rounder wheels' was partly a joke and gamesmanship, but also probably true, that is the British track team worked with Mavic to select the best wheels from the batches. This wouldn't unusual, back in the mid-80s Hinault's chief mechanic checked all new equipment from Campagnolo and the other suppliers for straightness, bearing smoothness etc and rejected the items that didn't meet his standards. The British have some history of this, I was once told that the British cannonballs used at Trafalgar were tested for roundness by passing them through a round hoop three or four ways, whilst the French and Spanish only tested theirs one way.

like the cycling firms have zero quality control, and they just release their dodgy equipment to the pro teams...

yeah, sounds legit.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
So stating that rim motors are highly impractical from a physics point of view and highly unlikely because of the vost involved doesn't fit the narrative of some people here. Never mind that you wouldn't even have to go all out on something as elaborate as inventing and producing an undetectable rim motor because crank motors will go unnoticed anyway (either by choice or lack of testing). It's Occam's razor all over again really.

funny, some pages back you were adamant that detectability was one reason why rim drive systems aren't in use.

to be sure, i get your point and it's a very valid point for the lower ranks, amateurs, continentals.
But not necessarily for the high-end pro's.
Cancellara raised a shitload of eyebrows. Both within and outside of the peloton people were talking. Riders had literally heard his motor and talked about it to the press.
Cassani spelled the whole system out for you in 2010, Varjas went on the record. UCI started some testing, etc. While they were never out to catch anyone, it does add to reasons why high-end cycling tech teams may have started looking for alternative technology. So ask yourself: is it really farfetched to assume that at least from 2010 onwards, high end cycling tech teams have started looking for alternative options to Cancellara's blatantly obvious "silent pro" model? Of course not.

So sure, we don't know if rim drives are in use, they might not be. Froome Ventoux 2013, for instance, looked like a normal motor. Contador, if he was using anything, it would have been a normal motor.
But the fact that you and jyl and hawkwood can't get your heads around the rim drive technology, doesn't mean such technology isn't being experimented with at the high end. Thats the only narrative, sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

their wheels aint rounder. they reinvented the wheels. the wheels needed to be designed much better, and have some muscular christianity and gordonstoun pluck inserted in them.

Actually I think the `rounder wheels' was partly a joke and gamesmanship, but also probably true, that is the British track team worked with Mavic to select the best wheels from the batches. This wouldn't unusual, back in the mid-80s Hinault's chief mechanic checked all new equipment from Campagnolo and the other suppliers for straightness, bearing smoothness etc and rejected the items that didn't meet his standards. The British have some history of this, I was once told that the British cannonballs used at Trafalgar were tested for roundness by passing them through a round hoop three or four ways, whilst the French and Spanish only tested theirs one way.

like the cycling firms have zero quality control, and they just release their dodgy equipment to the pro teams...

yeah, sounds legit.

That's not what my post says is it? Mavic might have a quality control spec of x which is extremely good, the British track team might have one of z which is just slightly tighter.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
Sniper, LOGIC will solve this one for you, not technology. All you need to do is understand the internal team competition, understand Froome and Wiggins transformation was down to new doping technology and weightloss from these new products.

i totally agree wrt wiggins and froome.
their transformation had nothing to do with motors.

 

[sniper]

gjb123: You have shown that you haven grasp whatsoever of the physics.

Good on you for repeating that for n-th time.
But I'm proud to have a better grasp of physics than A. Rasmussen.
It's telling neither you, nor jyl nor hawkwood have ever criticized that video.

The fact that YOU don't understand the calculations jyl provided doesn't mean he can't get his head around the technique.

agreed. As I've said several times already, it's very well possible that jyl and you have it right and that there is no rim drive system in use in the propeloton. It is also possible that you don't and that there is.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

gjb123: You have shown that you haven grasp whatsoever of the physics.

Good on you for repeating that for n-th time.
But I'm proud to have a better grasp of physics than A. Rasmussen.
It's telling neither you, nor jyl nor hawkwood have ever criticized that video.

The fact that YOU don't understand the calculations jyl provided doesn't mean he can't get his head around the technique.

agreed. As I've said several times already, it's very well possible that jyl and you have it right and that there is no rim drive system in use in the propeloton. It is also possible that you don't and that there is.

I'm losing the plot! Which video haven't I criticised?

 

[GJB123]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This one:

https://youtu.be/9dVh_x3YIhc

 

[blackcat]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
Sniper, LOGIC will solve this one for you, not technology. All you need to do is understand the internal team competition, understand Froome and Wiggins transformation was down to new doping technology and weightloss from these new products.

i totally agree wrt wiggins and froome.
their transformation had nothing to do with motors.

but the internal politics, how one rider usurps another for loyalty and team leadership.

when you throw a potential motor into the mix, then you involve the mechanics in the court politics of the team. and when I speak of court politics, I mean shakespearean stuff. This aint Cound Cath type LAdy MAcbeth. this is dagger type apparatchiks with wrenches in the middle of the night stuff.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

You have a problem accepting that this technology is being used, but do you accept that heavy use of doping is commonplace? We know that massive quantities of drugs are often in force, sometimes compounds which aren't even licensed for human applications. What does that tell you? It tells me that riders/teams will do anything, literally anything, to gain an advantage. And they have the mechanisms to do that - often with impunity, depending on who you are. Meanwhile the governing bodies need to pay lipservice to each development as it arises, and that means finding somebody to pop - preferably someone who cannot launch a robust defence.[/quote]


This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

Femke et al didn't have the resources or intelligence to pull that off so they got caught.

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

very good post...I think you describe the mechanisms of omerta very very well.

only the boldfaced...that is completely off.
As discussed in the Cance thread yesterday, it takes only the rider and perhaps one mechanic to install the Gruber Assist. A rider could also easily install it himself. Takes 5 to 10 mins tops. Nobody needs to know.
Just check google/youtube for "Gruber assist" and you find the relevant manuals and footage. Or check the Cance thread posts from yesterday. The easiness of installing the Gruber Assist and "silent pro" systems has also been highlighted previously in the "the doped bike exists!" thread.
Sure, depending on the race you'd probably need one mechanic to be in on the plot. But it definitely doesn't require "immense coordination to keep it secret".

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

very good post...I think you describe the mechanisms of omerta very very well.

only the boldfaced...that is completely off.
As discussed in the Cance thread yesterday, it takes only the rider and perhaps one mechanic to install the Gruber Assist. A rider could also easily install it himself. Takes 5 to 10 mins tops. Nobody needs to know.
Just check google/youtube for "Gruber assist" and you find the relevant manuals and footage. Or check the Cance thread posts from yesterday. The easiness of installing the Gruber Assist and "silent pro" systems has also been highlighted previously in the "the doped bike exists!" thread.
Sure, depending on the race you'd probably need one mechanic to be in on the plot. But it definitely doesn't require "immense coordination to keep it secret".

You and I both agree that the Vivax system (they seem to have dropped the Gruber bit completely) can be fitted to racing bikes, however the videos do not suggest you can fit one in `5 to 10 mins tops'. In one video I've seen a long reamer/drill is used to drill a hole in the bottom bracket shell, this was used in conjunction with a metal guide that was slotted into the bottom-bracket. Another guide was used to cut an accurate hole into the seat-tube. The videos I have seen suggest that the Shimano Hollowtech II crank axle has also got to be specially prepared, including cutting a thread into it. This thread is used to fix the bevel gear by way of a nut, it is possible that a special socket tool is needed to this.

In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. Also in some other information I've found it states `It is compatible with Hollowtech 2 cranks only and threaded rather than press fit is preferable.' So it won't work on a 27.2 seat tube frame, and I guess it won't work with anything other than a 24 mm thickness axle as there might not be room in the bb shell for the bevel gear (you'd have to drill one out from 24 to 30mm anyway). If you're going to fit one to a normal carbon road frame you might want to look at beefing up its seat-tube first, this could not be internally it would have to be to the outer surface of the seat-tube.

I've got a Merida road bike, plus a Specialized road frame waiting to be built up, the Vivax assist won't work on either, both are 27.2, the Merida is carbon, and the cranks I'm using are Rotor with a 30mm axle.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Did Valverde motor away today?

 

[kingjr]

I'm fairly uneducated on the topic of motors in bikes, and i have only read a few posts in this thread but is there any way a technical device that would help him go faster could remain undetected, if his bike was grabbed and checked pretty much immediately after he crossed the line?

If this question has been answered before in this thread, just say y/n and i'll go look for it

 

[sniper]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
You and I both agree that the Vivax system (they seem to have dropped the Gruber bit completely) can be fitted to racing bikes, however the videos do not suggest you can fit one in `5 to 10 mins tops'. In one video I've seen a long reamer/drill is used to drill a hole in the bottom bracket shell, this was used in conjunction with a metal guide that was slotted into the bottom-bracket. Another guide was used to cut an accurate hole into the seat-tube. The videos I have seen suggest that the Shimano Hollowtech II crank axle has also got to be specially prepared, including cutting a thread into it. This thread is used to fix the bevel gear by way of a nut, it is possible that a special socket tool is needed to this.

In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. Also in some other information I've found it states `It is compatible with Hollowtech 2 cranks only and threaded rather than press fit is preferable.' So it won't work on a 27.2 seat tube frame, and I guess it won't work with anything other than a 24 mm thickness axle as there might not be room in the bb shell for the bevel gear (you'd have to drill one out from 24 to 30mm anyway). If you're going to fit one to a normal carbon road frame you might want to look at beefing up its seat-tube first, this could not be internally it would have to be to the outer surface of the seat-tube.

I've got a Merida road bike, plus a Specialized road frame waiting to be built up, the Vivax assist won't work on either, both are 27.2, the Merida is carbon, and the cranks I'm using are Rotor with a 30mm axle.

That sounds like fair comments. Others with more know-how may be able to comment on your comments in more detail.
But check for instance this vid from 5:05 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
That looks real easy and quick.
You could very well be right about the limitations in terms of materials used and types of frames, etc.
But at the high end of the sport money is not an issue (which means for instance that batteries can be smaller, high-end materials are easier to get hold of, etc.)
And at the low end of the sport nobody is inspecting bikes anyway.
So both for pro's and for amateurs I can only assume motordoping has, at least until recently, been fairly easy to organize and get away with.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
You and I both agree that the Vivax system (they seem to have dropped the Gruber bit completely) can be fitted to racing bikes, however the videos do not suggest you can fit one in `5 to 10 mins tops'. In one video I've seen a long reamer/drill is used to drill a hole in the bottom bracket shell, this was used in conjunction with a metal guide that was slotted into the bottom-bracket. Another guide was used to cut an accurate hole into the seat-tube. The videos I have seen suggest that the Shimano Hollowtech II crank axle has also got to be specially prepared, including cutting a thread into it. This thread is used to fix the bevel gear by way of a nut, it is possible that a special socket tool is needed to this.

In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. Also in some other information I've found it states `It is compatible with Hollowtech 2 cranks only and threaded rather than press fit is preferable.' So it won't work on a 27.2 seat tube frame, and I guess it won't work with anything other than a 24 mm thickness axle as there might not be room in the bb shell for the bevel gear (you'd have to drill one out from 24 to 30mm anyway). If you're going to fit one to a normal carbon road frame you might want to look at beefing up its seat-tube first, this could not be internally it would have to be to the outer surface of the seat-tube.

I've got a Merida road bike, plus a Specialized road frame waiting to be built up, the Vivax assist won't work on either, both are 27.2, the Merida is carbon, and the cranks I'm using are Rotor with a 30mm axle.

That sounds like fair comments. Others with more know-how may be able to comment on your comments in more detail.
But check for instance this vid from 5:05 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
That looks real easy and quick.
You could very well be right about the limitations in terms of materials used and types of frames, etc.
But at the high end of the sport money is not an issue (which means for instance that batteries can be smaller, high-end materials are easier to get hold of, etc.)
And at the low end of the sport nobody is inspecting bikes anyway.
So both for pro's and for amateurs I can only assume motordoping has, at least until recently, been fairly easy to organize and get away with.

Good video and I wish I had his workshop! What he's showing is installing the motor after everything is prepped. The key stages appear to be reaming or drilling out the bottom-bracket shell so that the bevel gear goes through it, some might already have a big enough cut-out to allow this; and accurately drilling the hole to secure the motor. However the bit that no one appears to show is cutting a thread on to the Shimano axle and securing the bevel gear with a nut. I'll have to have a more through look to see if this stage is shown anywhere in detail. Obviously cutting the tread isn't that big a deal, but I wonder if there is also a secondary fixing for the bevel gear on the axle? All of this has to be done accurately. I guess intalling the battery and the wiring to the on/off switch is easy, but you'd want to do it carefully to ensure that it's well hidden.

Now I think that Cancellara was said to have been using a 27.2 seat-post on the bike he rode to victory at the Ronde, so if this is true the question becomes is there a slimmer motor out there? I also think he was using a Specialized crankset with a 30mm axle, and this was possibly used with pressed in BB30 cups, so not an ideal set-up for a Vivax motor. Also I wonder whether Vivax designed with motor to work with Shimano Hollowtech chainset at the axle is steel and so a stronger material to anchor the bevel gear to?

 

[WillemS]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

But check for instance this vid from 5:05 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
That looks real easy and quick.

That's because the frame is already specifically prepared for the motor; the mechanic is only showing how to insert the motor into the frame once all the fitting work is already done.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

...
You and I both agree that the Vivax system (they seem to have dropped the Gruber bit completely) can be fitted to racing bikes, however the videos do not suggest you can fit one in `5 to 10 mins tops'. In one video I've seen a long reamer/drill is used to drill a hole in the bottom bracket shell, this was used in conjunction with a metal guide that was slotted into the bottom-bracket. Another guide was used to cut an accurate hole into the seat-tube. The videos I have seen suggest that the Shimano Hollowtech II crank axle has also got to be specially prepared, including cutting a thread into it. This thread is used to fix the bevel gear by way of a nut, it is possible that a special socket tool is needed to this.

In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. Also in some other information I've found it states `It is compatible with Hollowtech 2 cranks only and threaded rather than press fit is preferable.' So it won't work on a 27.2 seat tube frame, and I guess it won't work with anything other than a 24 mm thickness axle as there might not be room in the bb shell for the bevel gear (you'd have to drill one out from 24 to 30mm anyway). If you're going to fit one to a normal carbon road frame you might want to look at beefing up its seat-tube first, this could not be internally it would have to be to the outer surface of the seat-tube.

I've got a Merida road bike, plus a Specialized road frame waiting to be built up, the Vivax assist won't work on either, both are 27.2, the Merida is carbon, and the cranks I'm using are Rotor with a 30mm axle.

That sounds like fair comments. Others with more know-how may be able to comment on your comments in more detail.
But check for instance this vid from 5:05 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo
That looks real easy and quick.
You could very well be right about the limitations in terms of materials used and types of frames, etc.
But at the high end of the sport money is not an issue (which means for instance that batteries can be smaller, high-end materials are easier to get hold of, etc.)
And at the low end of the sport nobody is inspecting bikes anyway.
So both for pro's and for amateurs I can only assume motordoping has, at least until recently, been fairly easy to organize and get away with.

Okay Vivax says the installation takes two hours, and on another site someone says it's tricky getting it right. I've found further information that shows the seat-tube is actually reamed out with the tool I saw on the video. I'm wondering whether the bevel gear might be installed using a sort of wedge principle, with the nut tightening this up on to the Hollowtech axle (think of a compression fitting in plumbing), so no threading the axle.

 

[sniper]

cheers guys. So forget my 5-10 minutes claim.

As for Cance's bike, there was a lot of confusion about which bike he rode when, due to the mysterious bike switches and the fact that the finish bike was kept secret and/or - according to some sources - swapped for another.

So best we can do is look at pictures of what he rode up the Muur.
Such as this one:

 

[sniper]

btw, unfortunately in Dutch, but here is a neat summary of why Cance's 2010 RvV was so suspicious.
http://www.wielertoerist.be/J.O.Nash/verhalen/Bestaat-ie+of+bestaat-ie+niet%3F+De+Motor-fiets+van+Fabian+Cancellara/?did=9628&modus=view
Basically sums up the points I mentioned in my earlier post.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

very good post...I think you describe the mechanisms of omerta very very well.

only the boldfaced...that is completely off.
As discussed in the Cance thread yesterday, it takes only the rider and perhaps one mechanic to install the Gruber Assist. A rider could also easily install it himself. Takes 5 to 10 mins tops. Nobody needs to know.
Just check google/youtube for "Gruber assist" and you find the relevant manuals and footage. Or check the Cance thread posts from yesterday. The easiness of installing the Gruber Assist and "silent pro" systems has also been highlighted previously in the "the doped bike exists!" thread.
Sure, depending on the race you'd probably need one mechanic to be in on the plot. But it definitely doesn't require "immense coordination to keep it secret".

Er, no. For such a conspiracy to succeed, it would need the full backing of everyone in a team, especially given that this technology is indisputably in its infancy. The idea to install a motor did not occur to Cancellara or Hesjadel on a whim, after all; the earliest adopters of EPO were part of a team (e.g. Carrera Jeans), and independent usage didn't really take off for 15 years or so. The collaboration of absolutely everybody on the team would have been utterly essential: what happens when the mechanics - every single one of which but one is out of the loop, in your hypothesis - need to repair his bike, which even people on an internet forum who can only see the bike from a TV screen see is suspicious?

 

[sniper]

Cannibal, in the post you replied to, I was talking generally. This is from 2009(!):
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html
"no one will know but your mechanic".


Look, you might have a point that when it comes to proteams, more people will probably need to be in on it.
But for amateurs, semi-pros, cyclocrossers, etc.? We're not talking about a network of people who need to be in on the plot. We're talking about the rider and maybe one mechanic.

As for Cance, I don't know, I mean I don't know how many were in on it. I guess at least Riis and one mechanic, maybe more. I don't think that matters much in the end. Remember what the Secret Pro said the other day: as long as the people in the know are happy, they will not spill.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Cannibal, in the post you replied to, I was talking generally. This is from 2009(!):
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/gruber-assist-is-a-stealth-electric-bike-no-one-will-know-but-your-mechanic.html
"no one will know but your mechanic".


Look, you might have a point that when it comes to proteams, more people will probably need to be in on it.
But for amateurs, semi-pros, cyclocrossers, etc.? We're not talking about a network of people who need to be in on the plot. We're talking about the rider and maybe one mechanic.

As for Cance, I don't know, I mean I don't know how many were in on it. I guess at least Riis and one mechanic, maybe more. I don't think that matters much in the end. Remember what the Secret Pro said the other day: as long as the people in the know are happy, they will not spill.

Fair enough then. I'm sorry for misinterpreting you (although Cance definitely had more than one mechanic involved).

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

This is a fine summation, and agrees in principle with what I have expressed before. A professional bicycle team is no different than any other decent sized organization: performance goals are set, expectations for employee behavior are made, and everyone involved is expected to obey the norms as the team or company strives to succeed. Sometimes these goals are laudable, sometimes they are not. If the organization is overtly corrupt (a la US Postal/Discovery) everyone involved knows that doping is widespread in the team, organized and methodical. Persons trying to move up the food chain (riders, soignueurs, doctors, mechs, etc) from feeder or junior teams are evaluated along the way and winnowed if they don't meet with the teams overall philosophy. If at the highest levels it is deemed necessary to engage in widespread cheating so be it. Riders or mechs perceived to be disloyal or incapable of secrecy would not be promoted and be let go. A "mechanical doping" strategy would require immense coordination to keep it secret. I believe it would be very possible for a well funded high profile team to pull it off. Anybody on these teams who wished to stay in the close knit field of cycling would know that disloyalty or snitching would effectively end their chances of employment down the road.

very good post...I think you describe the mechanisms of omerta very very well.

only the boldfaced...that is completely off.
As discussed in the Cance thread yesterday, it takes only the rider and perhaps one mechanic to install the Gruber Assist. A rider could also easily install it himself. Takes 5 to 10 mins tops. Nobody needs to know.
Just check google/youtube for "Gruber assist" and you find the relevant manuals and footage. Or check the Cance thread posts from yesterday. The easiness of installing the Gruber Assist and "silent pro" systems has also been highlighted previously in the "the doped bike exists!" thread.
Sure, depending on the race you'd probably need one mechanic to be in on the plot. But it definitely doesn't require "immense coordination to keep it secret".

Er, no. For such a conspiracy to succeed, it would need the full backing of everyone in a team, especially given that this technology is indisputably in its infancy. The idea to install a motor did not occur to Cancellara or Hesjadel on a whim, after all; the earliest adopters of EPO were part of a team (e.g. Carrera Jeans), and independent usage didn't really take off for 15 years or so. The collaboration of absolutely everybody on the team would have been utterly essential: what happens when the mechanics - every single one of which but one is out of the loop, in your hypothesis - need to repair his bike, which even people on an internet forum who can only see the bike from a TV screen see is suspicious?

There have been very few cases of teams not backing fully the cheating in the sport. So it is quite possible for everyone on the team to go with the flow. Happens in sport all the time. It is accepted culture of the sport to cheat to win.