Motor doping thread

[therhodeo]

Re:

Lieuwe Westra won Driedaagse De Panne-Koksijde (4 stages)
His bike allegedly wasn't checked.

A race he'd nearly won how many times?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2085403-hidden-motors-cyclings-mechanical-doping-problem-hits-new-low/

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

He also said there's a rumour in the peloton that a victory at the Tour was achieved with motor help (did he mean Froome 2013?).

No, it was clearly implied the rumour was about Carlos Sastre in 2008.

Vannieuwkerke said something about "a rumour that a Tour de France was won with a motor", Tom Boonen said he also heard those rumours and a few minutes later Vannieuwkerke asked: "Who won the Tour in 2008?". Boonen replied "Sastre". So it was very clear they were suggesting that the rumours were about Sastre.

It's strange no media picked this up, because it was the first time I heard something about Sastre.

A part of the conversation
Vannieuwkerke: "They speak about the Tour 2008 where it is already used (...) Who won that Tour de France?"
Boonen: "Sastre"
Vannieuwkerke: "That name already circulated in the peloton, no?"

My memory is crap, but I remember CS looking very human when he won that TdF. Maybe wise use of mechanical cheating?

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

He also said there's a rumour in the peloton that a victory at the Tour was achieved with motor help (did he mean Froome 2013?).

No, it was clearly implied the rumour was about Carlos Sastre in 2008.

Vannieuwkerke said something about "a rumour that a Tour de France was won with a motor", Tom Boonen said he also heard those rumours and a few minutes later Vannieuwkerke asked: "Who won the Tour in 2008?". Boonen replied "Sastre". So it was very clear they were suggesting that the rumours were about Sastre.

It's strange no media picked this up, because it was the first time I heard something about Sastre.

A part of the conversation
Vannieuwkerke: "They speak about the Tour 2008 where it is already used (...) Who won that Tour de France?"
Boonen: "Sastre"
Vannieuwkerke: "That name already circulated in the peloton, no?"

My memory is crap, but I remember CS looking very human when he won that TdF. Maybe wise use of mechanical cheating?

Its where you use it. You can save your legs big time. Imagine being wind shielded and then having a motor on as well . You hit that last climb with the freshest of legs

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

He also said there's a rumour in the peloton that a victory at the Tour was achieved with motor help (did he mean Froome 2013?).

No, it was clearly implied the rumour was about Carlos Sastre in 2008.

Vannieuwkerke said something about "a rumour that a Tour de France was won with a motor", Tom Boonen said he also heard those rumours and a few minutes later Vannieuwkerke asked: "Who won the Tour in 2008?". Boonen replied "Sastre". So it was very clear they were suggesting that the rumours were about Sastre.

It's strange no media picked this up, because it was the first time I heard something about Sastre.

A part of the conversation
Vannieuwkerke: "They speak about the Tour 2008 where it is already used (...) Who won that Tour de France?"
Boonen: "Sastre"
Vannieuwkerke: "That name already circulated in the peloton, no?"

My memory is crap, but I remember CS looking very human when he won that TdF. Maybe wise use of mechanical cheating?

Its where you use it. You can save your legs big time. Imagine being wind shielded and then having a motor on as well . You hit that last climb with the freshest of legs

or you follow wheels, then you just choose one crucial stage to hit the peloton uphill, then you put the motor back in your toolbag not to use for the other 20 days, you only use it on the one stage to make a decisive difference and winning move

even Levi could not wheelsuck the motor, even a gestalt of Levi, Linda Lovelace, and April Macy would struggle

 

[jahn]

I was also thinking of turning it on for a long climb but ride at normal threshold speed and staying with the group, then turning it off to attack with fresh legs. Can be pretty devious if you're smart about.

People will focus on your attack, which will have a believable speed for the perceived effort.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, the thing that drove most people to pick up on Cancellara was the bike changes for very minor reasons. Did Carlos have any of those? If anything, I would have thought that in that race it was more likely to have been in use in the flat stages which were very benign than in the mountains; i.e. preservation of energy to be fresher. Sastre being able to quietly save his energy because of Fränk being up the road and/or in yellow is one factor in why he was fresher come stage 17, but also he won that race in a large part because Kohl had to flush his last blood bag, and Evans didn't realise until too late that Bernhard, the last one helping him chase, had nothing left in the tank, and also burned himself out chasing change of tempo accelerations from Fränk, who he couldn't let go because he had the maillot jaune, and Andy, who he couldn't let ride across to Sastre, plus Valverde was helping the Schlecks police the group. Sastre's personal performance is one of the most believable Tour winning performances there's ever been, but still comes with a huge number of colossal caveats in the form of the team around him even before we get to these rumours.

I think that 2008 was the closest we've come to a 'new clean generation'. I say that with a straight face. Pierre Bordry was in charge at AFLD, testing was independent and targeted, new dope tests were kept under wraps until they could catch people red-handed, and they were keen to pick out the most egregious dopers and get rid of them. But because of that, it might have been the ideal time for the motors, and therefore if we have our conspiratorial hats on, the 2010 bike changes by Cancellara were just Bjarne attempting to adapt the technique for one-day races but not being subtle enough.

I don't know, I guess, is what I'm saying. I'm not convinced by the arguments presented thus far, but that's not to say they don't have any merit because I can see how it would have succeeded.

 

[Maxiton]

Italian, French Media Combine to Catch Pro Motodoping

BullsFan22 posted a link to this story up thread, but since then video has appeared on YouTube (linked below).

From VeloNews:

Italy’s Corriere della Sera newspaper and France’s Télévisions Stade 2 say video evidence shows riders cheating with motors at Italian races Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali this March.

The Italian and French media outlets collaborated to capture images from the races using a hidden thermal video camera. Published footage shows seven riders’ bicycles lit up brightly yellow and orange, five with heat coming from their seat-tubes and two with heat in their hubs.

Here is the footage (in French, but subtitles are available in settings): Un moteur dans le vélo

The footage has been shared with UCI's Brian Cookson, a related VeloNews story said, but ". . . it appears the (UCI) is not going to investigate the cyclists even if it knows their identities. Instead, it is steadfast in its plans to continue using magnetic bike scanners (instead of supplementing with the thermal imaging equipment used for this report)."

 

[Nick C.]

Re: Italian, French Media Combine to Catch Pro Motodoping

Disappointing, but is it really a surprise. If anyone asks I'm sure "legal proof" our waving a piece of plexiglass works, "rules" blah blah blah. It is all just a big show, very "ignore the man behind the curtain"ish.

 

[blackcat]

the most strong indictment imo is by Insiders Lefevre and Boonen.

They are not outright allegations, but they are not not* outright allegations.
They are not outright spitting in the soup, but they are not not outright spitting in the soup.

It is the ambiguous intersection, and a break in the INSIDER-outsider dichotomy.

we have insiders, who dont uphold the omerta in this sphere.


this is like anti-doping where the Omerta is immaculate, like the conception...
... and where the American steroid and doping academics (Yesalis, Hoberman) have gone, the social sciences. They do not look for proof in the mass spectromer gas chromatography test. You will always come up against the Armstrong and Landis model where the defenders look to muddy waters

The seek to understand the doping (the motors too), look to the social psychology, the sociology, the personality types and individual psychology withing a professional sportsteam change room and club room.

To me, this has always been understood when I finally saw the emperor's clothes fable in cycling. It took me a decade to flip-the-switch to sentience, and then start to think. It aint that hard brah.

*in this instance, the double negative does not equal a positive. Not exactly Kurt Goedel Incompleteness theorem, but not not Kurt Godel umlaut theorem

edit typos outright immaculate mass Incompleteness*
+ Yesalis Hoberman

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI

Remember what was the "famous expert's" comment after the long hyped Vroom's "independent physio testing"?

THE ENGINE WAS ALWAYS THERE.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI

Remember what was the "famous expert's" comment after the long hyped Vroom's "independent physio testing"?

THE ENGINE WAS ALWAYS THERE.

Except the overhead shot the earlier poster was referring to lasted about 5 seconds, and what he or she thinks is `very obvious' doesn't appear that obvious at all.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI

Remember what was the "famous expert's" comment after the long hyped Vroom's "independent physio testing"?

THE ENGINE WAS ALWAYS THERE.

It was, two data points 8 years apart, the engine was always there. He just lost the fat

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI

Remember what was the "famous expert's" comment after the long hyped Vroom's "independent physio testing"?

THE ENGINE WAS ALWAYS THERE.

Except the overhead shot the earlier poster was referring to lasted about 5 seconds, and what he or she thinks is `very obvious' doesn't appear that obvious at all.

Yep. As an example of a hidden motor in a rider's bicycle it shows SFA.

Is that the best "evidence" people here have? How about something with credibility?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI

Remember what was the "famous expert's" comment after the long hyped Vroom's "independent physio testing"?

THE ENGINE WAS ALWAYS THERE.

Except the overhead shot the earlier poster was referring to lasted about 5 seconds, and what he or she thinks is `very obvious' doesn't appear that obvious at all.

Yep. As an example of a hidden motor in a rider's bicycle it shows SA.

Is thathe best "evidenc" people here have? How about something with credibility?

What people? "We" are not one group, just individuals posting on a forum like yourself.

With that in mind, can one explain those "attacks" at 160 BPMs, seated after 236km?

Yes, potentially unexplainable but certainly not credible cycling.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

We should perhaps note that while the scale of Froome's acceleration while not increasing heart rate or getting out of the saddle is more extreme and remarkable in comparison, Contador had done the exact same type of thing, a seated attack without really attacking, to drop Fränk Schleck and António Colóm in 2009 at Paris-Nice.

Here's the video from Montagne de la Lure. At around 20:30 Contador is riding on the front of the trio, and a few seconds later, with barely even a change in cadence (which is admittedly a significant difference from Froome's Ventoux move with the kick into egg-whisk cadence), he just rides away from the other two opening a noticeable gap quickly. However, the TV cameras move away from focusing an Alberto to look at Fränk and Toni for a few seconds then when they go back to him he's moving so there's no way of really seeing how it transpired.

Again, nothing that can be considered even remotely proof of anything, and because we can't actually see Contador on-screen at the moment of the attack, difficult to draw any conclusions from - but it is evidence that Froome's seated beast mode attack, bizarre as it was, and regardless of how much suspicion and/or ridicule it has attracted, is not as totally unique and unprecedented as it can be characterized as.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

We should perhaps note that while the scale of Froome's acceleration while not increasing heart rate or getting out of the saddle is more extreme and remarkable in comparison, Contador had done the exact same type of thing, a seated attack without really attacking, to drop Fränk Schleck and António Colóm in 2009 at Paris-Nice.

Here's the video from Montagne de la Lure. At around 20:30 Contador is riding on the front of the trio, and a few seconds later, with barely even a change in cadence (which is admittedly a significant difference from Froome's Ventoux move with the kick into egg-whisk cadence), he just rides away from the other two opening a noticeable gap quickly. However, the TV cameras move away from focusing an Alberto to look at Fränk and Toni for a few seconds then when they go back to him he's moving so there's no way of really seeing how it transpired.

Again, nothing that can be considered even remotely proof of anything, and because we can't actually see Contador on-screen at the moment of the attack, difficult to draw any conclusions from - but it is evidence that Froome's seated beast mode attack, bizarre as it was, and regardless of how much suspicion and/or ridicule it has attracted, is not as totally unique and unprecedented as it can be characterized as.

how about when he was rounding the corner on the Ventoux attack with his knee like a 500cc rider Rossi?

I have not seen attacks maintain 100% momentum thru the corner and laying down a knee like Sagan or Cancellara do when they go DOWNHILL.

F-dawg laying down the knee uphill.

#NOTnormal

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

We should perhaps note that while the scale of Froome's acceleration while not increasing heart rate or getting out of the saddle is more extreme and remarkable in comparison, Contador had done the exact same type of thing, a seated attack without really attacking, to drop Fränk Schleck and António Colóm in 2009 at Paris-Nice.

Here's the video from Montagne de la Lure. At around 20:30 Contador is riding on the front of the trio, and a few seconds later, with barely even a change in cadence (which is admittedly a significant difference from Froome's Ventoux move with the kick into egg-whisk cadence), he just rides away from the other two opening a noticeable gap quickly. However, the TV cameras move away from focusing an Alberto to look at Fränk and Toni for a few seconds then when they go back to him he's moving so there's no way of really seeing how it transpired.

Again, nothing that can be considered even remotely proof of anything, and because we can't actually see Contador on-screen at the moment of the attack, difficult to draw any conclusions from - but it is evidence that Froome's seated beast mode attack, bizarre as it was, and regardless of how much suspicion and/or ridicule it has attracted, is not as totally unique and unprecedented as it can be characterized as.

how about when he was rounding the corner on the Ventoux attack with his knee like a 500cc rider Rossi?

I have not seen attacks maintain 100% momentum thru the corner and laying down a knee like Sagan or Cancellara do when they go DOWNHILL.

F-dawg laying down the knee uphill.

#NOTnormal

Do you mean the slight flick of his knee that maybe lasted 0.25 of a second?

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

We should perhaps note that while the scale of Froome's acceleration while not increasing heart rate or getting out of the saddle is more extreme and remarkable in comparison, Contador had done the exact same type of thing, a seated attack without really attacking, to drop Fränk Schleck and António Colóm in 2009 at Paris-Nice.

Here's the video from Montagne de la Lure. At around 20:30 Contador is riding on the front of the trio, and a few seconds later, with barely even a change in cadence (which is admittedly a significant difference from Froome's Ventoux move with the kick into egg-whisk cadence), he just rides away from the other two opening a noticeable gap quickly. However, the TV cameras move away from focusing an Alberto to look at Fränk and Toni for a few seconds then when they go back to him he's moving so there's no way of really seeing how it transpired.

Again, nothing that can be considered even remotely proof of anything, and because we can't actually see Contador on-screen at the moment of the attack, difficult to draw any conclusions from - but it is evidence that Froome's seated beast mode attack, bizarre as it was, and regardless of how much suspicion and/or ridicule it has attracted, is not as totally unique and unprecedented as it can be characterized as.

how about when he was rounding the corner on the Ventoux attack with his knee like a 500cc rider Rossi?

I have not seen attacks maintain 100% momentum thru the corner and laying down a knee like Sagan or Cancellara do when they go DOWNHILL.

F-dawg laying down the knee uphill.

#NOTnormal

Not to nit pick your analogy, but Rossi hasn't ridden a 500 for 15 years.

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Italian, French Media Combine to Catch Pro Motodoping

BullsFan22 posted a link to this story up thread, but since then video has appeared on YouTube (linked below).

From VeloNews:

Italy’s Corriere della Sera newspaper and France’s Télévisions Stade 2 say video evidence shows riders cheating with motors at Italian races Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali this March.

The Italian and French media outlets collaborated to capture images from the races using a hidden thermal video camera. Published footage shows seven riders’ bicycles lit up brightly yellow and orange, five with heat coming from their seat-tubes and two with heat in their hubs.

Here is the footage (in French, but subtitles are available in settings): Un moteur dans le vélo

The footage has been shared with UCI's Brian Cookson, a related VeloNews story said, but ". . . it appears the (UCI) is not going to investigate the cyclists even if it knows their identities. Instead, it is steadfast in its plans to continue using magnetic bike scanners (instead of supplementing with the thermal imaging equipment used for this report)."

I expect there to be a few French Journos with thermal type cameras along the route of this year's tour exuding their 'sour grapes'.

Any glowing you'll see in the seat tube area is the Di2 batteries right?

Brian Cookson's facial expressions when being confronted with this on the video are Funny.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Does constantly looking at one's stem fit in this scenario?
If so how?

May be he is reading some thing about function of the motor
so to try to ride natural as possible

Watching the Froome Ventoux 2013 SRM HD video make me think
that his ungainly gait while riding is something to do with having his legs pushed
by the pedals.
The cadence goes right up while the camera is on JRod
https://youtu.be/usNpx2BOabE?t=1685
but the heart rate doesn't respond for about 10s then it raises from 154 up to 161 for a short while.
Isn't that some kind of polygraph signature?

It certainly looks a little odd.

FYI: your HR does't react immediately, it reacts to your body needing to get dirty air out and clean air in. But only going up 7 bpm for that effort is another odd thing in that clip.

I'll reply to myself because I was thinking about this: maybe the graphic is not correct, maybe his HR went up to 180. That graphic is a simulated based on the signal from a transponder. NASCAR transponder tech is *better than cycling, and even their simulated data has a large margin of error.
*stronger transponder, direct signal to receiver instead of two or three relays/repeaters...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Does constantly looking at one's stem fit in this scenario?
If so how?

May be he is reading some thing about function of the motor
so to try to ride natural as possible

Watching the Froome Ventoux 2013 SRM HD video make me think
that his ungainly gait while riding is something to do with having his legs pushed
by the pedals.
The cadence goes right up while the camera is on JRod
https://youtu.be/usNpx2BOabE?t=1685
but the heart rate doesn't respond for about 10s then it raises from 154 up to 161 for a short while.
Isn't that some kind of polygraph signature?

It certainly looks a little odd.

FYI: your HR does't react immediately, it reacts to your body needing to get dirty air out and clean air in. But only going up 7 bpm for that effort is another odd thing in that clip.

I'll reply to myself because I was thinking about this: maybe the graphic is not correct, maybe his HR went up to 180. That graphic is a simulated based on the signal from a transponder. NASCAR transponder tech is *better than cycling, and even their simulated data has a large margin of error.
*stronger transponder, direct signal to receiver instead of two or three relays/repeaters...

Maybe this is Dawg's problem with the heart rate?

Tips for Erratic Heart Rate Data

If the heart rate data is erratic or does not appear, you can try these tips.

Reapply moisture to the electrodes and contact patches.
Tighten the strap on your chest.
Warm up for 5–10 minutes.
Wash the strap after every seven uses (Caring for the Heart Rate Monitor).
Wear a cotton shirt or wet your shirt if suitable for your activity.
Synthetic fabrics that rub or flap against the heart rate monitor can create static electricity that interferes with heart rate signals.

Move away from sources that can interfere with your heart rate monitor.
Sources of interference may include strong electromagnetic fields, some 2.4 GHz wireless sensors, high-voltage power lines, electric motors, ovens, microwave ovens, 2.4 GHz cordless phones, and wireless LAN access points.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Do you mean the slight flick of his knee that maybe lasted 0.25 of a second?

twas rhetoric, hyperpole for affect

taking the inside line, and accelerating thru the corner.

now, he may not have used a motor, i am pretty confident he is traditional doping ontop of weightloss doping with AICAR, GW101516, lipotropin and clen.

but he could have. That just did not look normal, it looked #NOTnormal

we need an emoji for #NOTnormal. do you think Fumi Beppu could get his parents to make us one?

oh, and Glenn Close and rabbits

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

Do you mean the slight flick of his knee that maybe lasted 0.25 of a second?

twas rhetoric, hyperpole for affect

taking the inside line, and accelerating thru the corner.

now, he may not have used a motor, i am pretty confident he is traditional doping ontop of weightloss doping with AICAR, GW101516, lipotropin and clen.

but he could have. That just did not look normal, it looked #NOTnormal

we need an emoji for #NOTnormal. do you think Fumi Beppu could get his parents to make us one?

oh, and Glenn Close and rabbits

Frank Vandenbroucke when he was really geared up would have had to brake into that corner

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Italian, French Media Combine to Catch Pro Motodoping

BullsFan22 posted a link to this story up thread, but since then video has appeared on YouTube (linked below).

From VeloNews:

Italy’s Corriere della Sera newspaper and France’s Télévisions Stade 2 say video evidence shows riders cheating with motors at Italian races Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali this March.

The Italian and French media outlets collaborated to capture images from the races using a hidden thermal video camera. Published footage shows seven riders’ bicycles lit up brightly yellow and orange, five with heat coming from their seat-tubes and two with heat in their hubs.

Here is the footage (in French, but subtitles are available in settings): Un moteur dans le vélo

The footage has been shared with UCI's Brian Cookson, a related VeloNews story said, but ". . . it appears the (UCI) is not going to investigate the cyclists even if it knows their identities. Instead, it is steadfast in its plans to continue using magnetic bike scanners (instead of supplementing with the thermal imaging equipment used for this report)."

I expect there to be a few French Journos with thermal type cameras along the route of this year's tour exuding their 'sour grapes'.

Any glowing you'll see in the seat tube area is the Di2 batteries right?

Brian Cookson's facial expressions when being confronted with this on the video are Funny.

Why do people keep posting an image from a bike that was not actually ridden during a race as if it's a smoking gun? No images from the race footage show this sort of down tube "heat".

Again, no one is dismissing the potential or the possibility of hidden motors, but the "evidence" being cited here is extremely flimsy.

It would help if people (yes including you hog ) stopped wanting things to be true and viewing the world through a haze of confirmation bias and instead provided credible evidence of things being true.

So far in this thread we have "overhead videos" that show sweet f-all, we have serious misinterpretations of HR response to exercise, claims of "super human" accelerations which do no more than demonstrate a poor understanding of physics (accelerations on a bike are very small, and very short lived, especially uphill).