Motor doping thread

[Chris James]

Re: Re:

Junior gearing checks only exist in Australia, it's not done in Europe.

Junior gearing is definitely checked in the UK

 

[markene2]

Is it just me or does it look like Wellens is motoring away everytime he attack?

 

[jmdirt]

I wonder if mechanical cheating is in response to riders not doping as much (tests, passport, health, $$...)? I've always hated the cliche' rhetoric "making a donkey into a race horse" because even a the best program can only make a good racehorse great. But mechanical cheating might be able to bring a few donkeys into the heard. Even so, if the racehorses are also using motors, the donkeys will still be donkeys.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

Is it just me or does it look like Wellens is motoring away everytime he attack?

Because attacking while everyone else is saving themselves for later is a blatant sign of using a motor

 

[therhodeo]

Re: Re:

Is it just me or does it look like Wellens is motoring away everytime he attack?

Because attacking while everyone else is saving themselves for later is a blatant sign of using a motor

Not only attacking but getting caught every time like a normal human should. Its posts like that that make the clinic such a cluster****.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

I wonder if mechanical cheating is in response to riders not doping as much (tests, passport, health, $$...)? I've always hated the cliche' rhetoric "making a donkey into a race horse" because even a the best program can only make a good racehorse great. But mechanical cheating might be able to bring a few donkeys into the heard. Even so, if the racehorses are also using motors, the donkeys will still be donkeys.

if you hate the cliche, just call it the Levi model

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If we arrive at the point that every attack is suspect then might as well close the forum lol

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

I wonder if mechanical cheating is in response to riders not doping as much (tests, passport, health, $$...)? I've always hated the cliche' rhetoric "making a donkey into a race horse" because even a the best program can only make a good racehorse great. But mechanical cheating might be able to bring a few donkeys into the heard. Even so, if the racehorses are also using motors, the donkeys will still be donkeys.

if you hate the cliche, just call it the Levi model

"Peddling backwards by Levi". Your go to book on how to suck wheels and get sent out the back like a flushed toilet on climbs. Suddenly the older and shorter you get your body is transformed into a team leader. All this and more in Levi's new book "Peddling backwards"

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Junior gearing checks only exist in Australia, it's not done in Europe.

That's not the point. The point is a process for checking for motors need only follow something similar to the long standing and simple process used for gear restriction checks in junior races as used in locations where that is done.

I'd have thought the very best evidence of motors being used would be to find actual motors in the bikes, and not all this nonsense speculation about cadence and HR.

Unlike doping, no one cares if someone uses a motor out of competition, hence that simplifies the solution greatly.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

As I posted up thread, HR doesn't react immediately to increased or decreased effort. I'm not sure by your statement if we agree or disagree on that, but the science is clear.

I think we are in agreement about the futility of using HR in the manner often referred to in these discussions, i.e. thinking it has some immediate response to what one does on a bicycle and that it can tell you about a rider's doping status.

HR response is multifactoral and its time course in response to changes in power output is significantly dampened.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Au contraire. There is more to power output than O2 doping, but all things being equal a higher than normal cadence is indicative that the rider is leveraging his aerobic system, which he can do because of O2 doping.

I'll say it again. Cadence is a red herring.

What cadence you are using is not indicative of the level of dependence on your aerobic system. What determines that is your power output relative to your fitness level, specifically your (functional) threshold power. Ride at or below threshold and your energy will be wholly supplied via aerobic metabolism, no matter what your cadence is (within reason). Ride above threshold power and energy demand will be supplemented by anaerobic energy metabolism, of which there is a limited store (that can be replenished via aerobic metabolism if you return to riding sufficiently below threshold power level).

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing the potential use of motors, only that the nature of "evidence" being presented here is flimsy to say the least. Neither cadence nor HR response (in the manner portrayed here) are particularly indicative of much at all. They are the wrong things to look at.

Since an electromechanical device in a bicycle is not particularly difficult thing to discover, I can't see this being overly difficult thing to police once such anti-cheating activity is sufficient resourced for the task. TT bikes already go though pre-race quarantine, so that would be pretty simple process.

Road races are a bit more chaotic, but processes can be put in place to deal with it. Wouldn't be all that more complex than what is done at all junior races with gearing checks before and after races (e.g. all rider's bikes are checked before race and place getter's bikes are checked immediately after race).

Junior gearing checks only exist in Australia, it's not done in Europe.

The article referred was an interview with Gilbert's agent, he inferred (possibly a poor translation) that 'pedalling pace' and heart rate are clear indicators of cheating.

Asked how to pinpoint those who are cheating, he said that both performances and physical parameters must be considered. “When you find an incredible pedalling pace in a slope at high altitude with low heartbeat, in my opinion, it is clear that there is cheating.

“It is a rule of three [factors]…the heart beat, the rhythm of pedalling and the slope. But as I said, it’s not sufficient [to form conclusions in this way – ed.] it is also necessary, in this case, that all legal mechanisms are put in place that the bike is seized, that the spare bikes are seized, and that mechanics don’t have the chance to approach the bikes.

“It is also necessary that in the future we forbid changing bikes except for serious mechanical reasons

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/

Quoting a rider's agent is hardly sound basis for what is essentially a discussion on basic exercise physiology.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing the potential use of motors, only that the nature of "evidence" being presented here is flimsy to say the least. Neither cadence nor HR response (in the manner portrayed here) are particularly indicative of much at all. They are the wrong things to look at.

Since an electromechanical device in a bicycle is not particularly difficult thing to discover, I can't see this being overly difficult thing to police once such anti-cheating activity is sufficient resourced for the task. TT bikes already go though pre-race quarantine, so that would be pretty simple process.

Road races are a bit more chaotic, but processes can be put in place to deal with it. Wouldn't be all that more complex than what is done at all junior races with gearing checks before and after races (e.g. all rider's bikes are checked before race and place getter's bikes are checked immediately after race).

Junior gearing checks only exist in Australia, it's not done in Europe.

The article referred was an interview with Gilbert's agent, he inferred (possibly a poor translation) that 'pedalling pace' and heart rate are clear indicators of cheating.

Asked how to pinpoint those who are cheating, he said that both performances and physical parameters must be considered. “When you find an incredible pedalling pace in a slope at high altitude with low heartbeat, in my opinion, it is clear that there is cheating.

“It is a rule of three [factors]…the heart beat, the rhythm of pedalling and the slope. But as I said, it’s not sufficient [to form conclusions in this way – ed.] it is also necessary, in this case, that all legal mechanisms are put in place that the bike is seized, that the spare bikes are seized, and that mechanics don’t have the chance to approach the bikes.

“It is also necessary that in the future we forbid changing bikes except for serious mechanical reasons

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/

Quoting a rider's agent is hardly sound basis for what is essentially a discussion on basic exercise physiology.

Oh god, you're playing that card?

Person who works directly with professional cycling knows less than a guy in a university lab 12,000 miles away.

Seriously, observatory evidence counts for nothing?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Oh god, you're playing that card?

Person who works directly with professional cycling knows less than a guy in a university lab 12,000 miles away.

Seriously, observatory evidence counts for nothing?

Well I'm not the one bringing a university lab guy into it but when it comes to matters of exercise physiology, yes I'll take the views of an exercise physiologist any day over comments by a rider's agent*. Not sure what the location of labs has to do with anything.

In the end it matters little who says stuff, but rather that they get the science right. So many misunderstand basic exercise physiology and misinterpret stuff like HR and HR response. It's quite evident when you read threads like this. Not every piece of data can infer what you'd like it to. I suggest instead focussing on data and evidence that does.


* likewise when it comes to matters of negotiating a rider's next contract, I'll listen to the rider's agent's view more than I would a random exercise physiologist.

 

[thehog]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

True, Ashenden who we all respect, lectured a 50% hemoacrit was too aggressive, 53% might be better to not draw 'false positives'. With time and observation we all know now 50% is way above norm, way above.

Wiley Voight, the pivotal player during Festina, was a truck driver. He administered, measured and leveled 20 cyclists to great performances.

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

Another red herring.

Where someone is located in the world is not a factor in whether they understand basic exercise physiology and can properly interpret or know the limitations of what one can infer from certain types of information, such as cadence and heart rate.

 

[thehog]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

Another red herring.

Where someone is located in the world is not a factor in whether they understand basic exercise physiology and can properly interpret or know the limitations of what one can infer from certain types of information, such as cadence and heart rate.

Alas the observation thereof is; TV footage is not always the best method of judgement. You know this. Primary reporting source will always be more valid than secondary, first year science teaches you this fact. So, yes, distance does make a huge difference and the types of athletes one might observe. Whether they a professionals as in Gilbert's agent case or local club athletes for coaching purposes.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

Another red herring.

Where someone is located in the world is not a factor in whether they understand basic exercise physiology and can properly interpret or know the limitations of what one can infer from certain types of information, such as cadence and heart rate.

Alas the observation thereof is; TV footage is not always the best method of judgement. You know this. Primary reporting source will always be more valid than secondary, first year science teaches you this fact. So, yes, distance does make a huge difference and the types of athletes one might observe. Whether they a professionals as in Gilbert's agent case or local club athletes for coaching purposes.

The proximity of an individual and their ability to observe riders makes no difference to whether cadence and HR data are valid means of identifying doping or use of hidden motors.

Proximity of observation of irrelevant factors does not make them any less irrelevant.

 

[thehog]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

Another red herring.

Where someone is located in the world is not a factor in whether they understand basic exercise physiology and can properly interpret or know the limitations of what one can infer from certain types of information, such as cadence and heart rate.

Alas the observation thereof is; TV footage is not always the best method of judgement. You know this. Primary reporting source will always be more valid than secondary, first year science teaches you this fact. So, yes, distance does make a huge difference and the types of athletes one might observe. Whether they a professionals as in Gilbert's agent case or local club athletes for coaching purposes.

The proximity of an individual and their ability to observe riders makes no difference to whether cadence and HR data are valid means of identifying doping or use of hidden motors.

Proximity of observation of irrelevant factors does not make them any less irrelevant.

In your opinion, which is is not science. A primary source of observation will always be more valid, especially one that deals with actual professional athletes and not those at a club level. Period.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Sometimes science from a distance misfires, misfires a lot, execution, observation is just as if not more important than science on a blog, selling coaching plans 12,000 miles away.

Another red herring.

Where someone is located in the world is not a factor in whether they understand basic exercise physiology and can properly interpret or know the limitations of what one can infer from certain types of information, such as cadence and heart rate.

Alas the observation thereof is; TV footage is not always the best method of judgement. You know this. Primary reporting source will always be more valid than secondary, first year science teaches you this fact. So, yes, distance does make a huge difference and the types of athletes one might observe. Whether they a professionals as in Gilbert's agent case or local club athletes for coaching purposes.

The proximity of an individual and their ability to observe riders makes no difference to whether cadence and HR data are valid means of identifying doping or use of hidden motors.

Proximity of observation of irrelevant factors does not make them any less irrelevant.

In your opinion, which is is not science. A primary source of observation will always be more valid, especially one that deals with actual professional athletes and not those at a club level. Period.

Not when it comes to matters of basic exercise physiology.

hog, it matters not whether it was an exercise physiologist or a hamster that was personally observing rider's cadence and HR data, or whether these were being observed from the moons of Jupiter. They are still not relevant measures wrt the topic of this thread, and there is no actionable intelligence on these matters to be gained from them no matter how much you might desire it to be.

 

[Jagartrott]

Yesterday on a cycling talkshow on Belgian TV, they asked Boonen what he thought of motors etc. And if he thought he got cheated out of victory at the Tour of Flanders in 2010. He said that it's useless to speculate about past occurrences if you don't have proof, but then he also said that:
- he felt very good that day
- he had never seen such an acceleration
- the fact that Gilbert and Devolder (the chasers) climbed the whole Muur faster than Cancellara did not mean much as he and Cancellara took the first part (through the houses) fairly easy

Which then seems to suggest he does think something was fishy.
He also said there's a rumour in the peloton that a victory at the Tour was achieved with motor help (did he mean Froome 2013?).

Also, not so much talk here on CN about what Gilbert's manager said the other day, which was pretty remarkable I thought (suspicious wheel changes, motors being around for quite a while, that he gave UCI specific names and that they did not act, etc.).

 

[Kicker661]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

[quote="Alex Simmons/RST
hog, it matters not whether it was an exercise physiologist or a hamster that was personally observing rider's cadence and HR data, or whether these were being observed from the moons of Jupiter. They are still not relevant measures wrt the topic of this thread, and there is no actionable intelligence on these matters to be gained from them no matter how much you might desire it to be.[/quote]

You are right that perception can be hit or miss.

When i was off the bike for almost 6 months i rocked up and crushed my old group. To them it looked like everything was dandy and i must have just trained hard. However from my view i just did a climb with 15% more watts than my record despite barely training.

I told them my watts and someone commented 'that extra weight really helps add the watts'..... ummmm i'm 90kg of muscle climbing just as quick compared to 75kg.... to me it was clear as day and even when telling them i was 15% over my previous well trained max effort it still didn't register anything for them.

Cadence isn't an indicator. I can climb at 75 if i'm wanting a steady pace or 95-100 if i'm with others and speed fluctuates. If i switch to 100 it doesn't mean that suddenly i've kicked into doping mode LOL.

My HR pattern is the same as normal. If you see legs go a a million RPM the HR will ramp just as quickly as normal. If the HR isn't budging despite legs spinning like crazy something is up.

So it doesn't really leave you with much except but i think in cases where Tom Boonen hints towards someone using a motor i think people need to sit up and listen. He of all people would know what's possible. Same with Cancellara. They would be the voices to listen to.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Yesterday on a cycling talkshow on Belgian TV, they asked Boonen what he thought of motors etc. And if he thought he got cheated out of victory at the Tour of Flanders in 2010. He said that it's useless to speculate about past occurrences if you don't have proof, but then he also said that:
- he felt very good that day
- he had never seen such an acceleration
- the fact that Gilbert and Devolder (the chasers) climbed the whole Muur faster than Cancellara did not mean much as he and Cancellara took the first part (through the houses) fairly easy

Which then seems to suggest he does think something was fishy.
He also said there's a rumour in the peloton that a victory at the Tour was achieved with motor help (did he mean Froome 2013?).

Also, not so much talk here on CN about what Gilbert's manager said the other day, which was pretty remarkable I thought (suspicious wheel changes, motors being around for quite a while, that he gave UCI specific names and that they did not act, etc.).

That's a good post and more first hand information from a rider. The Gilbert agent testimony is very interesting, a few resident coaches are trying to dismiss it. If there are rumors at that level in pro cycling then it looks to be a big issue. I'd say the Tour win with a motor would be Froome, Ventoux was glaringly obvious.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

 

[thehog]

Re:

Contador backs lifetime ban for mechanical doping
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-backs-lifetime-ban-for-mechanical-doping
Alberto
thinking about Tdf 2013?

Contador might get one Tour back.

The overhead shot on Froome gives it away that he's using a motor, it's very obvious;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52xv2Hg2fkI