Motor doping thread

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Nomad

Apr 20, 2016
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Re:

sniper said:
Agreed.
I am/was skeptic too.
I've stated on this board many times that i don't think Lance used a motor. I've never seen an alien Cancellara 2010 or Froome 2013 seated jump from him.
But motors can be used for different purposes. And currently the signs are pretty strong that he used one after all.

I'd be massively disappointed if the documentary is only about Lance.

I'm pretty confident about the following riders using / having used a motor:
Sagan, Cance, Froome, Primos Roglic, Hesjedal.
Teams I suspect of systematic motor use: movistar, sky.
And those are merely the guys/teams I've seen evidence form
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I'm sure most everyone would be "massively disappointed" if the story is only about LA. In fact, I would venture to say most of us over here in the States could care less (maybe it's a bigger deal in the UK). Lance has already been beaten down and spit on enough. He's treated as a common criminal as if PED use in cycling started and ended with him. He's lost his Tour titles while the "other" dopers keep their's. And now a documentary that he may/could have used a motor?...please (more than likely it will probably be someone's word against his...imagine that).

What there should be, IMO, is a documentary on how Britain's "holier-than-thou" hero, Mr. Froome, managed pull off that miracle transformation in 2011; going from 85th in the ToP to 2nd in the Vuelta in a very short time. Was it industrial-strength doping? Was his passport software inactivated? Lol. And despite this ridiculous transformation so obvious to anyone that's paying attention, he's revered by all these self-proclaimed "knowledgeable" British cycling fans as some kind of superb physical specimen because of the testing he did and his "amazing" VO2max of 84. How funny...didn't Lance at one time record a VO2max of 84? So, I guess they're tied on that physical attribute Lol. Gotta wonder about these British cycling fans...they're awful quick to mock LA's transformation, forgetting how their iconic hero got to where he's at. Is logic and reasoning, and the capacity to think no longer a desired quality with these fans?

I don’t have opinion on whether or not motors are being used, either in isolated cases or on a widespread basis. It seems difficult to prove and more along the lines of speculation without tangible physical evidence such as a mechanically altered bike confiscated that's linked to a certain rider or team, along with video evidence, whistleblower statements, recorded conversations, etc (evidence that is difficult for a rider or team to dispute and defend themselves against). Even the observational suspicion presented by some here of Spartacus riding away from Boonen has been disputed by someone who was actually there and didn't think it looked indictitive of a motor. Motors aside, IMO, Froome & Sky are doing a whole lot more than low-octane TUE drugs to achieve the dominance they've shown the last several years. Where's the documentary on this? Are the British investigatiive journalists drinking the Kool-aid and just content to enjoy the Froome & Sky show???
 
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Night Rider

Jan 20, 2010
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Glenn_Wilson said:
Dear lord of the flies if it is!

I have a theory about Lance but doubt anyone at this point would be willing to listen.

Sometimes when life gives you a bump in the road - you view things a tad bit different. I have gone through the gambit this Christmas and don't expect my personal feeling to get any more stable but have an entirely new perspective on LA.

Shame on him if he was using motors and it is a proven fact. Could be the hammer. But I would have expected my man Tyler and his Twin or Floyd for that matter to have come up with this before. That is why I'm a bit of a skeptic.
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Likewise.

It defies logic for LA to have used motors and it be kept secret until now.

Why did Tyler and others not spill in their books, why did Floyd not spill?

If it happened there is no way that only Bruyneel would have known, team mates would have known for sure.

Then there is the Grand Jury, those that knew all coincidentally left that part out?

Would much prefer a motor story on a current team, Varjas needs to p1ss, or get off the pot.
 
poupou

poupou

Jul 19, 2009
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If Lance used a motor, it was for his come-back. That would explain that he set a personnal anti-doping testing, he could have thought that the motor would give him enough power to race clean, until he realizes that was not the case!
I remember him pushing an impressive acceleration in a stage as he did in the past with EPO, but here that could be with the help of a motor.
 
D

Digger

May 10, 2009
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Re:

poupou said:
If Lance used a motor, it was for his come-back. That would explain that he set a personnal anti-doping testing, he could have thought that the motor would give him enough power to race clean, until he realizes that was not the case!
I remember him pushing an impressive acceleration in a stage as he did in the past with EPO, but here that could be with the help of a motor.
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he dropped tht program about two months after announcing it.
 
spalco

spalco

Feb 1, 2011
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Re: Re:

Nomad said:
I'm sure most everyone would be "massively disappointed" if the story is only about LA.
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If it is about more than Armstrong, and particularly if it's revealed Sky (and Movistar, and Sagan?, and Slipstream?) are systematically involved in that sort of cheating, I'm concerned it could literally end the sport on a professional level.

If that's what happened, I want it to be made public of course, but I don't know if that's survivable for pro cycling.

I don't even know if I would keep watching.
 
N

Nomad

Apr 20, 2016
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Re: Re:

spalco said:
Nomad said:
I'm sure most everyone would be "massively disappointed" if the story is only about LA.
Click to expand...

If it is about more than Armstrong, and particularly if it's revealed Sky (and Movistar, and Sagan?, and Slipstream?) are systematically involved in that sort of cheating, I'm concerned it could literally end the sport on a professional level.

If that's what happened, I want it to be made public of course, but I don't know if that's survivable for pro cycling.

I don't even know if I would keep watching.
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If it is more than Armstrong, and involving high-profile riders/teams, it would definitely turn the cycling world upside down and probably turn off many fans permanently. However, don't you think cycling would eventually survive? Cycling has shown incredible resiliency with major scandals involving high profile riders/teams in the past (e.g., Festina Affair, Oil For Drugs, Puerto, etc.).
 
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sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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Varjas needs to p1ss, or get off the pot.
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In fairness he's already pissed quite a bit.
From 2010 onwards (he was involved in the Cassani vid broadcasted on RAI) hes shown us what is happening. And on top of that he's also the *only* one talking.
It's not exactly his fault that UCI have not acted on it.

That said I agree the upcoming docu really needs to deliver.
 
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sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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spalco

spalco

Feb 1, 2011
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Re: Re:

Nomad said:
If it is more than Armstrong, and involving high-profile riders/teams, it would definitely turn the cycling world upside down and probably turn off many fans permanently. However, don't you think cycling would eventually survive? Cycling has shown incredible resiliency with major scandals involving high profile riders/teams in the past (e.g., Festina Affair, Oil For Drugs, Puerto, etc.).
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It would be a complete mockery of the sport on a fundamental level. It would make cycling look more like WWE than MMA. It would almost literally be a tv sketch without even being scripted. Who would watch that ridiculous theatre of e-cycling when they could just watch MotoGP? At least they actually ride fast.

I didn't believe at the beginning when this story came out, that it could be true, because it would be so much worse than almost any kind of "normal" doping, and I still believe the second part. If this is or was used regularly in the peloton it would be absolutely devastating.
 
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sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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sniper said:
sniper said:
https://www.google.pl/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2012/aug/05/london-2012-wheels-gb-cycling?client=ms-android-samsung

And:

viewtopic.php?p=1865019#p1865019

As Varjas said, some riders might not even know/notice they are riding with motorized equipment. They'll just think they're having a great day at the office.
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More interesting footage contained in the following tweet:
https://twitter.com/IlCobra21/status/813693220639084544
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Joe ‏@Joe684 57 Min.Vor 57 Minuten

@IlCobra21 @stevechapman65 @Digger_forum As a former sprinter, it looks wrong. Gearing, RPMs, acceleration and pedal stroke don't match.
Click to expand...
 
hrotha

hrotha

Jun 10, 2010
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
In fairness he's already pissed quite a bit.
From 2010 onwards (he was involved in the Cassani vid broadcasted on RAI) hes shown us what is happening. And on top of that he's also the *only* one talking.
It's not exactly his fault that UCI have not acted on it.

That said I agree the upcoming docu really needs to deliver.
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Sniper, come on. He's been talking for six years, as you say, and still said nothing of substance. Not pointed fingers at anyone, not shown any concrete evidence. Nothing. If the upcoming docu doesn't deliver, so what - he never delivered before, but people still listen to him and he still reaps the benefits.

If you applied the same sceptical standards to him as you do to others, you would have zero faith in him by now. You only believe him because he tells you what you want to hear. Even if moto-fraud is or has been rampant in the pro peloton, Varjas is not the person who will uncover it.
 
S

sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
sniper said:
In fairness he's already pissed quite a bit.
From 2010 onwards (he was involved in the Cassani vid broadcasted on RAI) hes shown us what is happening. And on top of that he's also the *only* one talking.
It's not exactly his fault that UCI have not acted on it.

That said I agree the upcoming docu really needs to deliver.
Click to expand...
Sniper, come on. He's been talking for six years, as you say, and still said nothing of substance. Not pointed fingers at anyone, not shown any concrete evidence. Nothing. If the upcoming docu doesn't deliver, so what - he never delivered before, but people still listen to him and he still reaps the benefits.

If you applied the same sceptical standards to him as you do to others, you would have zero faith in him by now. You only believe him because he tells you what you want to hear. Even if moto-fraud is or has been rampant in the pro peloton, Varjas is not the person who will uncover it.
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Is six years long? Not really.
Lemond has spoken of motors for six years, too.
So have Cassani and a couple of others.

Nothing of substance?
Define "substance".
People doubted it was technologically possible but he's demonstrated how it works.
On top of that he's said it's being used in the propeloton.
Several journalists subsequently came to him and asked him to tell the same story again. That's hardly his fault.

I don't see much reason to doubt him yet. The case for motorization being a real thing is not built solely on Varjas.
If the documentary doesn't deliver bullet proof evidence and some names of current pros (and/or a former pro like Cancellara), then I'll happily admit to you that I was wrong.

Right now I'm more concerned about UCI visibly not acting against the threat of motors than about Varjas being a quack yes or no.
 
S

sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
LeMond at least (dunno about Cassani) doesn't claim to be providing this service and to know who's doing it.
Substance: something that will stick. Names. Hard data.

We'll see how the documentary goes.
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Fair enough.

But mind, Stade 2 seemed to have provided a name and hard data: visual evidence of Primoz Roglic using a motor. Yet again UCI did absolutely nothing.

Just saying, substance doesn't necessarily stick.
 
Scott SoCal

Scott SoCal

Nov 8, 2012
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Re:

hrotha said:
You guys will be disappointed if it's only Armstrong? I'll be amazed if it's anyone at all.
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Yep.

This is a "look over there" distraction. It reminds me of the NFL. Why discuss dudes beating their wives when we can spent three years talking about Tom Brady and deflate-gate?
 
S

sniper

Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Scott SoCal said:
hrotha said:
You guys will be disappointed if it's only Armstrong? I'll be amazed if it's anyone at all.
Click to expand...

Yep.

This is a "look over there" distraction. It reminds me of the NFL. Why discuss dudes beating their wives when we can spent three years talking about Tom Brady and deflate-gate?
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It's probably a conspiracy.
A bunch of no-names plotting together to make motorization in procycling look like a real thing.
When we all know that really it's just science fiction.
The technology just isn't there yet.
And who would risk it anyway.
 
Semper Fidelis

Semper Fidelis

Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
Scott SoCal said:
hrotha said:
You guys will be disappointed if it's only Armstrong? I'll be amazed if it's anyone at all.
Click to expand...

Yep.

This is a "look over there" distraction. It reminds me of the NFL. Why discuss dudes beating their wives when we can spent three years talking about Tom Brady and deflate-gate?
Click to expand...
It's probably a conspiracy.
A bunch of no-names plotting together to make motorization in procycling look like a real thing.
When we all know that really it's just science fiction.
The technology just isn't there yet.
And who would risk it anyway.
Click to expand...
Must be just a conspiracy. No one would ever think to use something like a motor. :rolleyes:
 
T

ThePopeOfDope

Dec 25, 2016
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Re:

hrotha said:
LeMond at least (dunno about Cassani) doesn't claim to be providing this service and to know who's doing it.
Substance: something that will stick. Names. Hard data.

We'll see how the documentary goes.
Click to expand...


Cassani has in fact if I recall he was the first guy on tv to report it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaVcb0iTRFo) soon followed by Jacky Durand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpiCpPW7kuk) in a more PC way... Ferrari has talked about motors for years, unfortunately his opinion is not taken very seriously.
LeMond has been asking for thermal cameras for years and the first year they use them they conveniently forget to use in the critical moments.
 
hrotha

hrotha

Jun 10, 2010
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A bunch of no-names, or a dealer in motorized bikes? Varjas benefits from the publicity immensely.

The issue of motors is separate from the issue of the credibility of Varjas.

edit: ThePopeOfDope, I know that. I meant I'm not sure whether Cassani has ever claimed to know who exactly used the motors, not that I don't know Cassani talked about them in general.
 
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