hfer07 said:
I acknowledge you have valid points to favor Andy over Nairo - but some are pure fiction:
1-) 2009 Tour CSC was as strong as Astana- It was Alberto "alone" who was above everyone- including his very own team conspiring against him- remember that? BTW- the only time Schleck truly attacked was during the Ventoux stage to drag his brother up to the podium place - and guess what- he was countered by "Armstrong"
That was stage 19 right? Ventoux. After the massacre the Schleck's and Contador did to the remaining GC riders on stage 17, winning by close to 3 minutes from memory, Ventoux was neutralised. How can one tell?
Well it had been the first Ventoux ascent in some time. Every other time, massive time gaps opened up and have since then. Astana rode that stage to protect Armstrong who was matching Franck Schleck. It was up to Franck to gap Lance, which never happened. Contador and Andy watched what was happening. Make no mistake, that is a poor choice for you to bring up as both riders did not hit their top form. Had they, based on previous stages, time gaps would have opened.
Proof? Andorra Arcalis. Contador got just over 20 seconds (23 from memory) to move into first behind Rinaldo Nocentini. Brice Feillu won the stage. Remember the echelons Lance had Kloden and Popovich push with his old buddy George Hincapie and the HTC Columbia riders? Seems you forgot...AC attacked, after Evans made a move with Jurgen van den Broecke on Arcalis. Nobody tried to catch him EXCEPT Andy Schleck. Contador had to make a move because Lance was virtual yellow and a team mate cannot attack yellow. Lance and his clowns knew what they were doing, but Contador was having none of it. So his move stopped Lance being given default leadership - a bit like 2012 Sky, but unlike Froome, Contador didn't hold another riders hand. He attacked. Which won him fans galore!!
The next time they raced in the mountains, was it stage 15? CSC did lots of work with Kris Anker Sorenson, Cancellara, O'Grady, Voigt etc...Contador again attacked. Wiped everyone out except Andy Schleck.
The point with 2009 is very clear. Contador attacked and beat everyone. Andy Schleck also attacked and tried to catch Contador. His attacks dislodged EVERY other rider. Andy Schleck was still criticised.
Quintana this year did how many? One. Andy never asked someone to chase Contador. He did it himself. Sometimes he was beaten, but still prospered and did BETTER than everyone else. Sometimes he caught Contador.
That all changed in 2010. Andy actually had Contadors number. AC had Vino, Andy had nobody to help him but Cancellara on the cobbles. The point is, when the mountains struck, Andy early on was the strongest with Sammy Sanchez, and also later on was stronger and then equal to Contador. He won on the Tourmalet in their reverse ascent...still, he dropped EVERY other GC rider.
Quintana was quite content to sit in the bunch and have everyone else do a pull. The entire race. Everyone saw it. Everyone will remember for next time. He's scaring nobody.
So, my take was not fictitious. It was relevant and applied correctly. Relative to other GC rivals, Andy SChleck always had their number and often beat the man who won. Quintana in 2013 and 2015 did beat Froome at times. This year, that never happened. That is a digression. In other words, his form relative to his rivals has decreased, it's dissipated. That's not just physically. But also mental and emotional.
2-) Schleck was called out by none other than his own DS Riis as not being "consistent" and lacking commitment to achieve the TDF title- he never got serious to improve in his TT skills, despite having Cancellara in his own team- and as you mentioned- in 2010 when Contador was the weakest in his peak and Andy reached his very best, and with the best team at his disposal- guess what- he couldn't beat him either!! same as you claim- Quintana not being able to defeat a weak Froome? but you forget Froome's weakness can be covered by an extraterrestrial Poels, and super strong helpers like G, Henao, Nieve & Landa.
Andy Schleck left Bjarne Riis and formed his own team with Kim Anderson.
Both ventures have failed. Leopard Trek joined with Radioshack, which had been Astana in 2009, a team pillaged and ransacked by Lance Armstrong, and is not Trek Segafredo. And in the full circle of life, Alberto Contador will now ride with Franck Schleck and half his rivals from 2009!! The circle is complete!! I actually had a Facebook timeline memory from years back (or it might have been me finding a random quote on here) - that it would be hilarious if Contador joined with the Schleck's to combat Froome...well it's kind of happening minus Andy.
Maybe Quintana should ride with Contador...he surely is not listening to Valverde properly. Oh but Andy had Cancellara. Yeah, the man followed him to Leopard Trek. Andy's 2011 Chrono was on par with what Quintana has developed. But you forget Andy was abused non stop for not being Contador, or someone else. Quintana once again gets a free run. No criticism...yet when it's warranted, the fans cry. That won't help him. Proof Andy Schleck's time trial was GOOD. Cadel Evans was 7 seconds shy of Tony Martin that day. Cadel had not done a final week chrono in a grand tour of that calibre since 2007...heck, it was even better than that years one. Andy was top 20 that year.
For a poor time trialler, on a flat course that is good. Quintana was just outside the top 20 on the flat one. Even with Porte, who is roughly his size. His mountain ITT was slow for a climber. He beat Aru by a minute in the mountain ITT in the 2014 Giro. Dropped 30 seconds to him this Tour in the similar event...that's a performance drop relative to his competition.
My point was Andy tried. When he couldn't rely on his ITT, he attacked. He needed minutes. So attacking had to occur. Attack he did. Plus it worked against most of his rivals, so well that he finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd in consecutive Tours.
That's been something Movistar and Quintana actually tried last year. I will say it again clearly for you, the one fact that is clear this Tour is that Movistar attempted no such moves as last year or 2013, because they knew Quintana was under cooked. Still raw. They also didn't risk doing a move with Valverde, because had it failed, that team prize might have gone...which is sad. All that panache and zeal to use and they did zip.
But you don't seem to get that. Which is why Bardet was awesome. He won. Simple. He grew. Quintana did not grow this Tour. Or did he? If so, where?
So Andy Schleck went partying with Stuart O'Grady in Spain. Bjarne is a moron. Make them ride and help Franck. The idiot sent them home. Bjarne Riis own cycling antics are a joke as well. Mr 60% was his nickname...he couldn't finish a Tour before epo became available in better than the mid 80s position wise. Or did you not know that?
Times were different back then. comparisons are hideous if both sides cannot be measure equally by its merits. bottom line is - We're talking about a "retired rider" whose success is defined by what he won in his time- versus an active rider whose palmares is greater, keeps growing & will grow - despite all your observations.
the truth is- history is written by achievements, not by good deeds & intentions....(sadly)
It was 5-7 years ago. Franck Schleck is still riding and so is Contador. Froome was about to become a GC marvel...no, they haven't changed. The contracts changed. That's it.
Of course the palmares 'looks' better. But on the road, he rides like a ***** sucking the life out of cycling.
Boring. And his team captain has a palmares greater than anyone of this generation. But Valverde doesn't ride like a ***** now does he? The truth...you won't find it on a palmares champ. Real memories and results worth remembering are made by how you win.
Example: stage 10 and 11 of this years Tour. The first stage had a breakaway containing 7 riders in it.
Orica bike exchange had Daryl Impey and Luke Durbridge working for Michael Matthews. I'm an Aussie, so this was going to be spoken of highly should they win. They'd dropped a breakaway full of riders unwilling to take a pull - Cancellara said as much, he was in it. Joining them was the strongest breakaway I can remember in a long time. Every other rider had won GREAT wins in the Tour. Some this very race! Greg van Avermaet, Peter Sagan, Sammy Dumoulin and Edvald Boasson Hagan.
OBE let Sagan do most of the work and marked him. In the end they got their win.
Good for them. They used numbers and strategy to beat the most flamboyant and dominant rider in the peloton at this point in time. But they all used Sagan. They didn't go out and attack him...they just rode his wheels. Which is fine, they came to the Tour and have to use what they have...right?
Next day, stage 11, Sagan, Bodnar, Froome and Thomas all breakaway from the peloton with 12km to go in high winds. Sagan wins the stage ahead of Froome.
Which do you remember? Which will last in your memory?
And that's my point. Nairo Quintana was a shadow this year. A rider, devoid of actual life and light. His usual form and poise was gone and no attacks happened. The stage after 11, stage 12, saw his only attack and sign of life. Nullified and void of merit was the result of his move.
That's the point. Andy Schleck may have fallen short and his palmares may not be grand...but he's remembered.
Quintana's 2016 Tour won't be by many. Same as Bling's Tour stage win. The manner at how Sagan picked himself up and won the next day out shines Orica's previous days efforts.
I suspect you don't get that though. So call what you see truth...it's not. It's an opinion. Nothing more.
The 2016 Tour de France Chris Froome and Sky truly exposed Nairo Quintana and team Movistar - and I like the team!!
One person on the last page suggested Quintana needs more 'luck.' Nairo never fell, had a mechanical or suffered more in the wind than ANY other rider among the GC riders. He had the best and easiest ride of all of them, except Bardet. What that person was actually implying when one analyses the race properly, was that unless Froome falls, has a mechanical or gets sick, Quintana won't beat him. That's not luck. That's misfortune befalling a rival and you go ahead by default...
And Froome did fall. Twice. He still beat Quintana. Stage 19 when BArdet and Cherel attacked. Valverde had been up with Bardet before Cherel went to assist. Had he not had to carry Nairo over the line, whilst whinging about wanting to quit, what could have happened?
Yeah, imagine Bardet with Valverde...what could have happened. Valverde on the podium is way better than Quintana.
That's what racing missed this year.
Maybe you should all stop excusing childish tantrums. Next time Nairo throws his hands up when Chris Froome attacks on a descent, I hope Valverde isn't there. Maybe then the fanboys will wake up. Nobody chased. Everyone expected Nairo to lead...funny, in 2008 on Alpe d'Huez, Valverde led a cohort of 10 riders who ALL leeched onto Cadel Evans and refused to help him chase Sastre. Just desert? Who was asked to pull? Valverde. Reaping what they sowed hey!!
My point? Cadel Evans whined a lot. He was exceptionally ungrateful as a rider. He eventually grew up, his attitude changed and so did his racing style; he raced hard and made zero mistakes and used his abilities properly to win the Tour. In 2010, he wore the yellow jersey...so he set a precedent that he could win and grow as a rider, mind you he had a broken elbow. He chased Andy Schleck down on an entire mountain by himself and won the Tour de France. I called it...I said he'd win after Andy's stage breakaway in 2011. He did. BTW, most people still thought Andy would win. Granted Nairo has some time to GROW up and actually earn a Tour win, but his attitude suggests that won't happen.
Whilst Valverde is the best cyclist in the world, he cannot pull Quintana to a Tour victory if the man won't get his face in the wind once. And I gave an answer on how to do it. Make zero mistakes week one and PUT your rider in yellow. Froome panics when crap happens. Ventoux proves that. Who runs up a mountain? Froome. Who got a tow up the side on a motorbike? His number one rival...
Movistar have their plan around the wrong way. Take yellow, then force Sky to attack. How many Sky domestiques can attack strong enough to drop Valverde and Quintana? None consistently. Henao had one day he was strongerr than Valverde and so did Poels. They were on the front foot though and allowed breakaways galore to win stages. I've seen Tours where one breakaway maybe two won stages. Sky lost huge time early on most days and then set a hard pace in the second half. Had Movistar had a 2015 Quintana on form, racing hard from the start would have seen that Sky train break. Heck, Astana tried!! They just lacked the final bullet with their GC man...
But at least they tried. Movistar didn't even bother. And worse, I've defended them in previous years and said they would! They did!! But not this year.
And it's all because Nairo Quintana is a shadow of his former self.
both. 
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