Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Both of which he won in very conservative fashion. Didn't even win a stage at the Giro and just wheelsucked Froome on the big stages at the Vuelta. Which is fair enough - that's how GTs can be won. I have no problem with that, but Contador's showy attacks are generally out of desperation - a last throw of the dice. And usually fail. Quintana's obviously not in a situation yet where he needs to do anything like that yet.

Except for the fact that he would have likely had a TDF win under his belt now if he'd tried one of those "showy, desperate" attacks. But you knew that already. Just --> belittle Contador, find any possible excuse for Quintana and Movistar, rinse and repeat. Classic DFA post.

I doubt that very much. Of course his tactics could be better at times, but I think he is generally very calculated and gets pretty close to the best out of his abilities. Plus, rightly imo, he values podium places and so isn't prepared to throw that away for a move which has a very slim chance of working. I struggle to see why it's hard to accept that the most entertaining strategy for fans often isn't the best one for the rider.

No need for the personal attack, by the way. Surely we can just discuss this like adults.

He waited all day at La Touissure which costed him the Tour. He also wasn't aggressive on PdB and tried very little attacks on Pra-Loup.
Also Arcalis last year, LGB in Tour 2013.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Both of which he won in very conservative fashion. Didn't even win a stage at the Giro and just wheelsucked Froome on the big stages at the Vuelta. Which is fair enough - that's how GTs can be won. I have no problem with that, but Contador's showy attacks are generally out of desperation - a last throw of the dice. And usually fail. Quintana's obviously not in a situation yet where he needs to do anything like that yet.

Except for the fact that he would have likely had a TDF win under his belt now if he'd tried one of those "showy, desperate" attacks. But you knew that already. Just --> belittle Contador, find any possible excuse for Quintana and Movistar, rinse and repeat. Classic DFA post.

I doubt that very much. Of course his tactics could be better at times, but I think he is generally very calculated and gets pretty close to the best out of his abilities. Plus, rightly imo, he values podium places and so isn't prepared to throw that away for a move which has a very slim chance of working. I struggle to see why it's hard to accept that the most entertaining strategy for fans often isn't the best one for the rider.

No need for the personal attack, by the way. Surely we can just discuss this like adults.

He waited all day at La Touissure which costed him the Tour. He also wasn't aggressive on PdB and tried very little attacks on Pra-Loup.
Also Arcalis last year, LGB in Tour 2013.

You've listed a load of stages there where he didn't win. But how do you know what form he had, or whether other rivals were riding within themselves? There is zero chance he could have won 2013 Tour, whatever he did. Likewise, last year on Arcalis he had terrible form - what more could he have done?

We have seen time and again, when Quintana has great form he goes and goes early. When he doesn't have such great form, or when he has a decisive lead, he rides more conservatively. Of course he may have made some tactical errors in his career - everyone has - but it's hardly a pattern which defines his riding style.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

Ridiculous analysis. You recognise that Nibali is the main threat, but criticize Quintana for his tactics which were... to mark Nibali's attacks. Instead insisting he should have gone on a very risky long range attack, where he could have been countered, could have found out he had bad legs, could have been hung out to dry inthe valley, or loads of other things.

As Quintana said, he knew Dumoulin would bleed time one way or another. He's not a proven three week racer. Nibali is, and was the guy Quintana was watching today.

Quintana is talking ***! Dumoulin wouldn't bleed any time today, or very little, without that unfortunate situation he had. He should've been his main target cause he needed 4-5 min on him before today's stage, but attack never came, although his team set that up properly. It was clear that the plan is to attack on Stelvio, Anacona droped a little to wait for his attack, but he changed his mind, and later pulled Gorka from the break to help him in the main group. The risk of attacking wasn't that big, in fact it was minimal, cause he had 3 teammates to pull him if something goes wrong. Nobody had a guy in front, if they drop him, his 3 mates would catch him in the valley. But he simply didn't had guts! Yet luck played in his favor, so he had good result, but I would say undeservedly.

 

[lenric]

Why would Quintana attack? To bleed time on the descent?

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

What exactly was his luck in his two previous GT wins? Being much better than the opposition, being alert when a break forms...?

When, where?

 

[HelloDolly]

One of the most boring riders

 

[Matteo.]

Sometimes I think people consider cycling as pro cycling manager. But what did you pretend? It's clear he did not attack because he did not have legs, he also confirmed it with the interview after the race. The plan was attacking on the stelvio (for this reason he had teammates in front) but lacked the strength.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

Strange that only Quintana is being criticised for not attacking on the Stelvio - It's like there are no other Gc riders in the race.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

Strange that only Quintana is being criticised for not attacking on the Stelvio - It's like there are no other Gc riders in the race.

Quintana is the one with most to gain

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

very very average stage from Nairo. quite weak by the standarts of the climber who should supposedly thrash this mediocre climbing field on week 3. still he has the most optimal chance to be in maglia rosa on sunday.

That tells you every bit how good he is.

yes, very very impressive for the giro contender, but really average for the messiah-climber that should comfortably win the giro in a canter to save himself for the tour is what i was implying. that being said, i'm not critical to quintana. even super trouper climbers sometimes have very average days, it's absolutely normal!

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Also Arcalis last year, LGB in Tour 2013.

He was on no form last year. Wouldn't have made it onto the podium where it not for the misadventures of Richie Porte and Adam Yates. You wanted him to attack more?

At least that's better advice than 2013, where Quintana went from 34km out into Ax 3 Domaines and ended up losing 1' 45" to the tip of the Sky train, because, again, basic physics and biology. He needed to be more aggressive in 2013? In what universe?

I'm sorry but this has is just such a ludicrous conceit. Again, Quintana went from over 100km out with the leaders jersey on his shoulders, on his last Grand Tour. I really don't remember the last time anyone did that, going back to the nineties. You're comparing him to myths and fantasies.

 

[AlexNYC]

The criticism of Quintana by some in the last few pages betrays so much ignorance about cycling.

About him not attacking today: if he doesn't have the legs, how is he supposed to attack? Are you kidding me?

And about not waiting for Dumoulin, give me a break. The peloton waited plenty, and in any case, he only responded to accelerations by Zakarin and Nibali. What was he supposed to do, wait for Dumoulin on by himself?

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Also Arcalis last year, LGB in Tour 2013.

He was on no form last year. Wouldn't have made it onto the podium where it not for the misadventures of Richie Porte and Adam Yates. You wanted him to attack more?

At least that's better advice than 2013, where Quintana went from 34km out into Ax 3 Domaines and ended up losing 1' 45" to the tip of the Sky train, because, again, basic physics and biology. He needed to be more aggressive in 2013? In what universe?

I'm sorry but this has is just such a ludicrous conceit. Again, Quintana went from over 100km out with the leaders jersey on his shoulders, on his last Grand Tour. I really don't remember the last time anyone did that, going back to the nineties. You're comparing him to myths and fantasies.

He had already dropped Froome the day before LGB. Also he attacked on Paliheres becuase he was a domestique for Valverde and he was ordered by the team.
Also he just followed Contador on Formigal stage.

 

[Dukerojo]

Many people are thinking that cycling is like video-game. I think that Nairo was lucky today as he didn't had the legs, but to be the champ you also need luck

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

I don't question that he can finish on the podium, obviously he can do that and as I've said before, Im absolutely positive that he will do better than Contador did in 2015. But its a bit more complicated being this far down, realistically he needs 5 minutes. He should just completely forget the Tour, if thats in his head it aint possible to go deep to the extent that he will crack Dumo.. well, I assume thats how it works anyways.

But lets not forget Valverde either. In top-shape on this route, I think he will be as good as Porte and Quintana (who I consider to be the two worst opponents, possibly Contador, but he will have to show that first).

No offence, but he'll have to win the Giro first to even consider that.

Why would I be offended? You simply misunderstood my post - doing better than Contador, as in doing better than Contador in the Tour de France.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

In my video game he attacked on the Stelvio and took more time. No option in the game for what Dumo did.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

He had already dropped Froome the day before LGB. Also he attacked on Paliheres becuase he was a domestique for Valverde and he was ordered by the team.

Sure. That's why it was a suicide attack. Second Grand Tour, 5' 32" down, with 4 riders within 46" fighting for the podium. Who cares about white jerseys, and podiums, and mountain classsifications, and stage wins. Certainly no 23-year old (who wants to make his country proud, his team proud, and feed his family) ever? He needed to go solo from 34km out again, because, that was definitely going to work.

Also he just followed Contador on Formigal stage.

Sure. Contador attacked alone, pressed on alone on just guts and a champions mentality. That's why he killed later killed himself on Aitana, like a champion, always going to for the win. And whined about the help he didn't get from Movistar afterwards, like a champion. Because that's what champions do. They win, with that champions attitude. They don't care about podiums.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re:

The criticism of Quintana by some in the last few pages betrays so much ignorance about cycling.

About him not attacking today: if he doesn't have the legs, how is he supposed to attack? Are you kidding me?

And about not waiting for Dumoulin, give me a break. The peloton waited plenty, and in any case, he only responded to accelerations by Zakarin and Nibali. What was he supposed to do, wait for Dumoulin on by himself?

This x 1000. NQ attacks when he feels good and conserves energy when he doesn't . That's obvious at this point and to be honest, smart.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

The criticism of Quintana by some in the last few pages betrays so much ignorance about cycling.

About him not attacking today: if he doesn't have the legs, how is he supposed to attack? Are you kidding me?

And about not waiting for Dumoulin, give me a break. The peloton waited plenty, and in any case, he only responded to accelerations by Zakarin and Nibali. What was he supposed to do, wait for Dumoulin on by himself?

This x 1000. NQ attacks when he feels good and conserves energy when he doesn't . That's obvious at this point and to be honest, smart.

Very much this. I think there is a massive under-appreciation here of just how hard these last four stages are. Tomorrow - the so called easiest remaining stage - has 3800m of climbing and is 220km long. The other three stages are harder still. Unless you are feeling absolutely amazing, you don't go all in on an 80km+ solo attack today and leave yourself open to all kinds of counters later in the week.

 

[Red Rick]

If quintana didn't have the legs, fair enough, we'll know. But I don't expect a rider who goes for the giro-tour double to get worse during the former

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

He had already dropped Froome the day before LGB. Also he attacked on Paliheres becuase he was a domestique for Valverde and he was ordered by the team.

Sure. That's why it was a suicide attack. Second Grand Tour, 5' 32" down, with 4 riders within 46" fighting for the podium. Who cares about white jerseys, and podiums, and mountain classsifications, and stage wins. Certainly no 23-year old (who wants to make his country proud, his team proud, and feed his family) ever? He needed to go solo from 34km out again, because, that was definitely going to work.

Also he just followed Contador on Formigal stage.

Sure. Contador attacked alone, pressed on alone on just guts and a champions mentality. That's why he killed later killed himself on Aitana, like a champion, always going to for the win. And whined about the help he didn't get from Movistar afterwards, like a champion. Because that's what champions do. They win, with that champions attitude. They don't care about podiums.

Haha, yeah... people love to critisise Quintana for being calculative and conservative.

It likely was the plan to go on Stelvio, but people forget than throwing people into the break doesn't necessarily mean that that's the plan. Rather, its an option, it can be used offensively or if he has a bad day, mechanicals, is going to take a dumb etc. defensively. It all depends on the situation but under pretty much all circumstances, its better to have riders up the road. Thats what commentators fail to realise as well which frankly is annoying at times. Throwing people up the road doesnt = long range attacks, we have seen that many times.

Lay off him a bit. I think it was obvious he wasn't on a good day.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

He had already dropped Froome the day before LGB. Also he attacked on Paliheres becuase he was a domestique for Valverde and he was ordered by the team.

Sure. That's why it was a suicide attack. Second Grand Tour, 5' 32" down, with 4 riders within 46" fighting for the podium. Who cares about white jerseys, and podiums, and mountain classsifications, and stage wins. Certainly no 23-year old (who wants to make his country proud, his team proud, and feed his family) ever? He needed to go solo from 34km out again, because, that was definitely going to work.

Also he just followed Contador on Formigal stage.

Sure. Contador attacked alone, pressed on alone on just guts and a champions mentality. That's why he killed later killed himself on Aitana, like a champion, always going to for the win. And whined about the help he didn't get from Movistar afterwards, like a champion. Because that's what champions do. They win, with that champions attitude. They don't care about podiums.

Haha, yeah... people love to critisise Quintana for being calculative and conservative.

It likely was the plan to go on Stelvio, but people forget than throwing people into the break doesn't necessarily mean that that's the plan. Rather, its an option, it can be used offensively or if he has a bad day, mechanicals, is going to take a dumb etc. defensively. It all depends on the situation but under pretty much all circumstances, its better to have riders up the road. Thats what commentators fail to realise as well which frankly is annoying at times. Throwing people up the road doesnt = long range attacks, we have seen that many times.

Lay off him a bit. I think it was obvious he wasn't on a good day.

I'm not so sure he wasn't on a good day; though perhaps not spectacular. He marked Nibali relatively easily on the climb. Like you said, sending riders up the road was just an option - maybe if Nibali or Dumoulin would have shown more weaknesses earlier in the day he would have used them. Or maybe having Amador there was to make Sunweb chase hard from quite early on.

This is just act 1 of a 5 part play. Patience and recovery is going to win the race, not a showy long range attack which puts you in a hole recovery wise.

 

[Dukerojo]

Re:

If quintana didn't have the legs, fair enough, we'll know. But I don't expect a rider who goes for the giro-tour double to get worse during the former

Last year he did better during La Vuelta than the TDF

 

[Escarabajo]

We'll see how is his strength in the remaining stages. It looks like he wasn't as strong today. Bad luck for Dumo. But can still win if Quintana does not get better.

Also, Quintana gets blame for a lot of things in this forum. Next will be global warming and ISIS. But so other riders get a lot of crab in this forum as well. This forum looks like a fan club at times. People are not being objective and not discussing pure cycling unfortunately. Just posting crab because you don't like a rider. Seriously pure crab. The most stupid ideas that you have heard. It happens in every thread.

The good thing is that there are a several forum members who know something about cycling and understand cycling whose inside about the races are interesting.

 

[meat puppet]

Re: Re:

The criticism of Quintana by some in the last few pages betrays so much ignorance about cycling.

About him not attacking today: if he doesn't have the legs, how is he supposed to attack? Are you kidding me?

And about not waiting for Dumoulin, give me a break. The peloton waited plenty, and in any case, he only responded to accelerations by Zakarin and Nibali. What was he supposed to do, wait for Dumoulin on by himself?

This x 1000. NQ attacks when he feels good and conserves energy when he doesn't . That's obvious at this point and to be honest, smart.

Very much this. I think there is a massive under-appreciation here of just how hard these last four stages are. Tomorrow - the so called easiest remaining stage - has 3800m of climbing and is 220km long. The other three stages are harder still. Unless you are feeling absolutely amazing, you don't go all in on an 80km+ solo attack today and leave yourself open to all kinds of counters later in the week.

Precisely, all of the above.

In addition, quintanas strategy is often attrition. This year it makes double sense to him, not necessarily to spectators, since there is the tour down the road too. If his analysis is that dumoulin will bleed time and nibali can be held at bay by mostly following, then doing this is quite reasonable.

If the analysis is incorrect, he probably loses. Tough luck, but that is part of the game.