Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[Valv.Piti]

About the whole Froome v Quintana debate:

At the moment, Froome is obviously better, but not by much as the margin in TdF also indicated. I know its not that black/white, but 100% Quintana isnt far from 100% Froome. Quintana is one of the least fragile pure climbers I have ever seen (fx. compared to Landa, but also other great climbers), he can get through and isnt the type of guy you just push around on the flat, wind and cobbles. He is actually much more than that. Couple that with a very decent TT, especially when it gets rough in the latter part of a GT, and you have much more than a diesel climber who thrives the tougher it gets due to his recovery and endurance which outclasses everybody GT-wise, even the greats as Contador, Nibali and Froome. He has proven that time and time again and to state otherwise is simply not true.

Im pretty confident that Quintana will win next year. I dont think Contador will be a real threat, neither will the Aru/Nibali and then there isnt that much left. Movistar needs better climbing domestique able to make it hard early and often when and dictate the mountain stages for it to be possible I think, but 2015 has been great for Nairo with a good showing in France and a extremely rough Vuelta for him. I think he will be stronger while I think Froome has reached his maximum which makes it intriguing. Unless the Tour pulls some insane 2012 route stuff, Quintana definetely has good chances and I mean, how much will Quintana lose anyways on say, 50 flat of ITT or thereabouts to Froome? 1-2 min if it isnt in the first week.

 

[Gigs_98]

@damian13ster
You know, my problems with froome frans isn't that they like froome. Sky fans like pricey sky are great forum members and I like them. My problem is that there are froome fans like "damian13ster" who don't even try to be objective. In their opinion froome is just the best in everything and its absolutely impossible that could ever change. Yeah you are right, if froome and Quintana have the same climbing shape, froome will win because he is the better TTer and because he might gain some time on little uphill finishes. However you have to be completely stupid to think he will always be in top shape. If there is a tour in which Nairo is in the clearly better climbing shape (which is likely because he is so young), he will win it, no matter how he will do in the TT's. He isnt such a bad TTer that he wouldnt be able to get back the time in the mountains.
Next up you only talk about Froome, because who could possibly beat Nairo next year besides Froome, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone talks about the big 2 and not about the big 4 .

Ps: And I guess the point "Tactical sense/positioning" was a joke. Froome always has a sky train which positions him and you saw his great tactical sense in last years vuelta. Or would you say that pulling the leader up the road are good tactics? I don't say that Nairo's tactics are perfect but not worse than Froome's. And did you see this years cobble stage, where Nairo positioned himself without any teammates? Not what I would call bad positioning.

Of course, having a shitty shape is an option. Thought we are talking here about both riders at top level though? In that case Froome is just purely better as a GC rider, and it is not even close.

You might not like me, or the stye I post in, but here are the facts:
When both Froome and Quintana finish a GT
- Quintana has NEVER, NEVER placed higher than Froome

When both show up at the WT stage race:
Quintana has beaten Froome ONCE, he was 5th in Catalunya vs 6th for Froome.
Another fun fact: Other than that Catalunya, Nairo NEVER came within a minute of Froome at final GC

Thats why I can say comfortably that Froome is just much better cyclist.
You can sugarcoat it all you want, or put it in a diplomatic way, but the facts are facts.

And Froome will fade at some point, for sure. Just unlikely to happen withing next 3 years.
And I havent mentioned the other two because so far they haven't seriously competed in a TdF that had Quintana in it

arrrrrg, how can someone be that naive. There is ONE gt in which nairo was beaten by froome and in which nairo started as a leader, and even in this gt he maybe would have won if he had attacked more. 2013 he was 23 years old, even now he is only 25. The reason why something like a young riders classification exists, is because normally riders still improve when they get older than 25. What did froome do when he was 25? Noticing that he probably should go to sky if he ever wants to be successful? Moreover, how the hell do you get the idea that he can't be beaten in the next 3 years? Do you remember how Alberto kicked his ass in the dauphine 2014? Froome really can be happy that he crashed out because otherwise he wouldnt have this invincibility status, which he now has. I don't want to say its impossible that he wins the tour in the next 3 years, but how can someone say its unlikely that he wont win one of the next 3 tours? Thats insulting.
ps: oh and your statistic with the other WT races is ridiculous. I just watched Nairo's results and if I didnt miss anything, there is ONE 1 week stage race since 2013 in which froome was placed better than Nairo, which was this year's Romandie (a race in which he got 8th, so it probably means as much as the result of the vuelta catalunya 2014).

edit: and of course I was also talking about possible shitty shape. That happens, and if it happens to froome in the tour he simply wont win it. Do you think Nibali was at his best this year?

 

[Moviestar]

Re: Re:

I've never seen such a palmares at age 25, so it's quite a achievement. Even young Contador didn't have such a palmares although he already did have a TdF under his belt.

Contador at age 25 had won the GT triple crown plus victories in several one-week stage races.

Ah, time to study the palmares of Contador then

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I've never seen such a palmares at age 25, so it's quite a achievement. Even young Contador didn't have such a palmares although he already did have a TdF under his belt.

Contador at age 25 had won the GT triple crown plus victories in several one-week stage races.

Ah, time to study the palmares of Contador then

No worries Nairo also has a really good palmares for his age and will surely add to it in the coming years

 

[Miburo]

He should have won this year's tour, bending to piti's will is a sign of weak character or maybe he just doesn't have to balls to attack from futher out.

Either way terrible sign, I hope he isn't the one who is gonna dominate GT's in the next year but i'm pretty sure he won't. Too fragile.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

He should have won this year's tour, bending to piti's will is a sign of weak character or maybe he just doesn't have to balls to attack from futher out.

Either way terrible sign, I hope he isn't the one who is gonna dominate GT's in the next year but i'm pretty sure he won't. Too fragile.

Valv has pretty much been the captain from 2005 and is a huge persona, no way you are just coming into that team and claiming all the team's support and telling him to do this and that. Its Valverde, not Andreas Klöden. If it shows anything, it shows respect.

Valverde has got his podium now so about the Tour, you could hope he would stagehunt/domestique alá Vino in 2010, but I seriously still doubt it. He will probably still find his own way in some way or another in 2016, but I hope its all in for Nairo this time.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

He should have won this year's tour, bending to piti's will is a sign of weak character or maybe he just doesn't have to balls to attack from futher out.

Either way terrible sign, I hope he isn't the one who is gonna dominate GT's in the next year but i'm pretty sure he won't. Too fragile.

Valv has pretty much been the captain from 2005 and is a huge persona, no way you are just coming into that team and claiming all the team's support and telling him to do this and that. Its Valverde, not Andreas Klöden. If it shows anything, it shows respect.

Valverde has got his podium now so about the Tour, you could hope he would stagehunt/domestique alá Vino in 2010, but I seriously still doubt it. He will probably still find his own way in some way or another in 2016, but I hope its all in for Nairo this time.

Respect of this type doesn't come before winning a gt. If he had been able to win the gt but wasn't as aggressive to show "respect" for Valverde, then he is very stupid and wasn't showing any respect for his sponsors or team. He is paid to win...not help an aging rider place 3rd. That being said, I'm not entirely sure he was holding back purely out of "respect" for Valverde...I think it also had to do with him being naive and his managers.

 

[damian13ster]

@damian13ster
You know, my problems with froome frans isn't that they like froome. Sky fans like pricey sky are great forum members and I like them. My problem is that there are froome fans like "damian13ster" who don't even try to be objective. In their opinion froome is just the best in everything and its absolutely impossible that could ever change. Yeah you are right, if froome and Quintana have the same climbing shape, froome will win because he is the better TTer and because he might gain some time on little uphill finishes. However you have to be completely stupid to think he will always be in top shape. If there is a tour in which Nairo is in the clearly better climbing shape (which is likely because he is so young), he will win it, no matter how he will do in the TT's. He isnt such a bad TTer that he wouldnt be able to get back the time in the mountains.
Next up you only talk about Froome, because who could possibly beat Nairo next year besides Froome, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone talks about the big 2 and not about the big 4 .

Ps: And I guess the point "Tactical sense/positioning" was a joke. Froome always has a sky train which positions him and you saw his great tactical sense in last years vuelta. Or would you say that pulling the leader up the road are good tactics? I don't say that Nairo's tactics are perfect but not worse than Froome's. And did you see this years cobble stage, where Nairo positioned himself without any teammates? Not what I would call bad positioning.

Of course, having a shitty shape is an option. Thought we are talking here about both riders at top level though? In that case Froome is just purely better as a GC rider, and it is not even close.

You might not like me, or the stye I post in, but here are the facts:
When both Froome and Quintana finish a GT
- Quintana has NEVER, NEVER placed higher than Froome

When both show up at the WT stage race:
Quintana has beaten Froome ONCE, he was 5th in Catalunya vs 6th for Froome.
Another fun fact: Other than that Catalunya, Nairo NEVER came within a minute of Froome at final GC

Thats why I can say comfortably that Froome is just much better cyclist.
You can sugarcoat it all you want, or put it in a diplomatic way, but the facts are facts.

And Froome will fade at some point, for sure. Just unlikely to happen withing next 3 years.
And I havent mentioned the other two because so far they haven't seriously competed in a TdF that had Quintana in it

arrrrrg, how can someone be that naive. There is ONE gt in which nairo was beaten by froome and in which nairo started as a leader, and even in this gt he maybe would have won if he had attacked more. 2013 he was 23 years old, even now he is only 25. The reason why something like a young riders classification exists, is because normally riders still improve when they get older than 25. What did froome do when he was 25? Noticing that he probably should go to sky if he ever wants to be successful? Moreover, how the hell do you get the idea that he can't be beaten in the next 3 years? Do you remember how Alberto kicked his ass in the dauphine 2014? Froome really can be happy that he crashed out because otherwise he wouldnt have this invincibility status, which he now has. I don't want to say its impossible that he wins the tour in the next 3 years, but how can someone say its unlikely that he wont win one of the next 3 tours? Thats insulting.
ps: oh and your statistic with the other WT races is ridiculous. I just watched Nairo's results and if I didnt miss anything, there is ONE 1 week stage race since 2013 in which froome was placed better than Nairo, which was this year's Romandie (a race in which he got 8th, so it probably means as much as the result of the vuelta catalunya 2014).

edit: and of course I was also talking about possible shitty shape. That happens, and if it happens to froome in the tour he simply wont win it. Do you think Nibali was at his best this year?

Damn it man, I thought that comprehensive reading was in grade 3. It is clear in my post that I said assuming both arrive in great shape. It is possible that Quintana can improve, but there wasnt a significant jump from 2013 to now so further improvement will be most likely minimal if any, and he is not that close yet, as shown by the race that was made for him. There never will be a Tour without flat stages with possible crosswinds, or with just one short TT. Not going to happen, so if he is not able to win now, he won't be able to win on the course that suits others from the big 4 a lot more.

And Froome didn't get his ass kicked in Dauphine, didnt get lucky by having a crash (you have to be a special person to say that someone is lucky they crashed). He won two stages prior to that crash, and by leading all the way up the climb. It just shows your dissonance from what is actually happening in the real world is just too high for this discussion to have any sense

 

[ice&fire]

Re:

Froome ended up 2nd and 4th at Tour and Vuelta in 2012 and we all know what happened in 2013. Be ready for Nairo year!

Evans finished 2nd at the Tour and 4th at the Vuelta in 2007 and we all know what happened in 2008

 

[Escarabajo]

People trying to talk sense to damian13ster ? Remember that he cannot forgive Quintana for what happened in the Giro last year. He does not like the guy, so objectivity goes out the window.

Quintana Fragile? From the small climbers is probably the most consistent and durable. Even when he is sick or has a bad day he limit his losses very well.

 

[Escarabajo]

Surprise, surprise!!

Quintana's big objective for 2016:

http://www.revistamundociclistico.com/ruta/19627-el-gran-objetivo-de-nairo-quintana-para-el-2016-en-la-mira-otra-vez-el-tour-de-francia.html

 

[jsem94]

Well, I would NEVER have seen that coming.

 

[AlexNYC]

If the 2016 route has a hilly ITT and a MTT as rumored, it will be very good for Nairo's chances.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Surprise, surprise!!

Quintana's big objective for 2016:

http://www.revistamundociclistico.com/ruta/19627-el-gran-objetivo-de-nairo-quintana-para-el-2016-en-la-mira-otra-vez-el-tour-de-francia.html

Im not that good in spanish, but it seems he is up for the Tour-Vuelta double again this year. Which is good. I want to see Nibali, Froome, Contador and Quintana in 2 GT's every year.

Curious to see what his schedule is. I hope he skips San Luis and goes straight to T-A, maybe Catalunya, Pais Vasco and L-B-L and if he feels like it, why not Romandie again. But I think the main objective is to stay relatively fresh and strike in those races he attends, alá Contador 2014. Easier said than done!

A main point going towards the 2016-season also is what domestiques Unzue sorrounds Nairo with. Anacona was promising, Jose and Gorka are decent, but you need more firepower. Hoping to see Valls and Intxausti in the Tour so Movistar can play with Sky. And who knows, Valv has got his podium.

 

[Metabolol]

Had Movistar gone all in for Quintana he could have won the Tour this year. They always hold back a bit for Valverde, you could see that on for example stage 20 of this Vuelta. They have to start going all in for Nairo. Movistar has the strength as a team but Valverde should not be in the same races as Nairo.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re:

Had Movistar gone all in for Quintana he could have won the Tour this year. They always hold back a bit for Valverde, you could see that on for example stage 20 of this Vuelta. They have to start going all in for Nairo. Movistar has the strength as a team but Valverde should not be in the same races as Nairo.

It's fun having them both in...but I think you're right. Nairo, clearly has the potential to win GT's in the coming years and it's tough to have it both ways with Valv in the same races.

 

[Mr.White]

Unzue is a smart man, he will separate them. I can see Valverde doing il Giro

 

[ILovecycling]

Re:

Unzue is a smart man, he will separate them. I can see Valverde doing il Giro

That would be so awesome,but really?

 

[AlexNYC]

^ I read somewhere that Valverde already said he was doing the Tour next year too.

 

[Metabolol]

That's bad news for Quintana. Not that Valverde (or Unzue) would stab him in the back but it doesn't improve his chances of winning the Tour. They need to send Valverde to the Giro and have 100% focus on Quintana at the Tour. Then maybe split the Vuelta.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Do you remember how Alberto kicked his ass in the dauphine 2014?

Before he crashed when he gained time in the TT and won the stage after Contador wheelsucked him for 3km or after he crashed, when he was clearly not in shape to contest?

We will never know what would have happened in the 2014 Tour, so using that as a valid argument to prove that AC is currently a better GC rider than Froome is completely nonsensical.

 

[Valv.Piti]

U

That's bad news for Quintana. Not that Valverde (or Unzue) would stab him in the back but it doesn't improve his chances of winning the Tour. They need to send Valverde to the Giro and have 100% focus on Quintana at the Tour. Then maybe split the Vuelta.

That was what they proclaimed this year. But the situation in 2016 is different, we obviously havent raced in the new season yet, but several factors should and would indicate its 100% for Nairo now. 1) He is a year older, more experienced and hopefully a better cyclist 2) Bala is a year older, 36, and SHOULD begin to decline by now 3) He got his podium now.

I think Valv respects Quintana a lot. Quintana hasnt demanded 100% support yet and has embraced the fact that he wanted to podium in Tour, he is very polite and calm, but he knows his time is now. And I hope and think he has Valverde and Unzue (certainly) are aware of it. I certainly think Valverde will pay back in the sense of sacrificing himself to a certain extent (like, still room for stagehunting and riding secondary GC), because afterall, its Valverde we are talking about and the guy has never, ever been a dom.

 

[Moviestar]

Re:

Unzue is a smart man, he will separate them. I can see Valverde doing il Giro

Unzue and smart doesn't really fit with each other. The man deserves the credits for renewing the contracts of the important riders ( almost each season), but his race tactics/strategies are horrible. As much as i would love to see your suggestion, it has a very small chance since Unzue is keen on selecting two (equal) leaders at the start of the TOUR. ( Quintana/Valverde, Valverde/Pereiro/Karpets, Valverde/Mancebo, Mancebo/Menchov)

Besides this Unzue has stated at the beginning of this year's GIRO that the GIRO will be a opportunity for the youngsters and inexperienced riders. If that trent continues this year (very likely) it's gonna be the likes of Amador,Ion Izagirre, Fernandez, Jesus Herrada and maybe Soler. Valverde will probably join Quintana in the TOUR/VUELTA.

 

[damian13ster]

Valverde worked for Quintana in the Tour. Pulled multiple times, offered platforms for attack. He was arguably the best domestique in the entire race.
Movistar with Valverde provides much stronger support than Movistar without Valverde

 

[Metabolol]

Valverde worked for Quintana in the Tour. Pulled multiple times, offered platforms for attack. He was arguably the best domestique in the entire race.
Movistar with Valverde provides much stronger support than Movistar without Valverde

I strongly disagree, that was the idea and something Unzue seems to believe but when watching the race it's obvious to me that it didn't and doesn't benefit Quintana. It just doesn't workout that way when both are in a race and you see that Movistar always hold back some firepower for Valverde and Quintana doesn't get the full support when he needs it.

The work Valverde did for Quintana in the Tour didn't amount to much in terms of actually winning the race which should have been the clear goal for Quintana and the team. Movistar is a strong team but their race tactics are sometimes strange.