Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[carton]

Re: Re:

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

A) Quintana fans, and I guess I'm one of them now, aren't a collective. B) One is only responsible for raising one's own expectations. C) He's living up to any reasonable expectation.

Or is Contador an abysmal failure for not easily surpassing five Tours as some predicted nearly a decade ago?

 

[MovistarRider]

Re: Re:

If Quintana - the world's best climber - goes blank this year (which rather seems the case) I call failure. Again.

If Nairo manages to podium the Tour, it would be a very good season. I don't see how anyone could spin that as a failure, but of course, it would be difficult for Nairo to live up to the expectations of some people in this forum.

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

He isn't even close in reaching contador's climbing ability (pre ban), how is he even compared to pantani?

Nairo possess without a doubt better climbing abilities than Contador. Since he entered the peloton he is always there or thereabouts in the hunt for the stage win, rarely has a bad day or gets dropped and is the only rider in the last couple years who could take on and beat Froome (protected by a machine of a team) in the mountains. Pantani is whole different story but a peak Quintana versus a peak Contador would have only one logical winner and it ain´t the Spaniard.

Meanwhile Contador thanks half of his reputation by 2 TDF won against a weak (In climbing sense) field. He won his Tours against the likes of Evans, Leipheimer and a 37 year old Armstrong. The only guy of reasonable level he did beat in those 2 years was Andy Schleck. Would you consider Andy on Froome´s level? If Froome and his Sky boys would ride back then Contador wouldn´t have a TDF win to show, that much i´m sure of.

I always found Contador overrated and has luck and his back then competitors' dire level to thank - more than his ability. Throw a peak Froome and Quintana in the races between 2007 and 2009 and Contador would look nothing special.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

If Quintana - the world's best climber - goes blank this year (which rather seems the case) I call failure. Again.

If Nairo manages to podium the Tour, it would be a very good season. I don't see how anyone could spin that as a failure, but of course, it would be difficult for Nairo to live up to the expectations of some people in this forum.

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

He isn't even close in reaching contador's climbing ability (pre ban), how is he even compared to pantani?

Nairo possess without a doubt better climbing abilities than Contador. Since he entered the peloton he is always there or thereabouts in the hunt for the stage win, rarely has a bad day or gets dropped and is the only rider in the last couple years who could take on and beat Froome (protected by a machine of a team) in the mountains. Pantani is whole different story but a peak Quintana versus a peak Contador would have only one logical winner and it ain´t the Spaniard.

Meanwhile Contador thanks half of his reputation by 2 TDF won against a weak (In climbing sense) field. He won his Tours against the likes of Evans, Leipheimer and a 37 year old Armstrong. The only guy of reasonable level he did beat in those 2 years was Andy Schleck. Would you consider Andy on Froome´s level? If Froome and his Sky boys would ride back then Contador wouldn´t have a TDF win to show, that much i´m sure of.

I always found Contador overrated and has luck and his back then competitors' dire level to thank - more than his ability. Throw a peak Froome and Quintana in the races between 2007 and 2009 and Contador would look nothing special.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
You are talking about the rider who in 2007 at Plateau de Beille beated peak Lance's both tries there by 1:23 and 1:47 respectively.
http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/the-big-guns-at-same-level-on-plateau.html
We are talking about they rider who had a recor vAM up Verbier, the one who has done Ventoux at 58:45 in 2009, where he was freewheeling with Andy Schleck against a headwind. Guess what is Quintana's time? 59:29. Froome's one? 59:00
http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/mont-ventoux-2013-two-new-entries-in.html
The one who almost broke the recored of Col d' Eze in a road stage in 2007.

Just some examples. 2007 and 2009 had extremely ridiculous performances. Also the Zonc record by Piepoli and Simoni from '07 Giro is one of them. Tre Cime record by Di Luca was from that Giro as well.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

If Quintana - the world's best climber - goes blank this year (which rather seems the case) I call failure. Again.

If Nairo manages to podium the Tour, it would be a very good season. I don't see how anyone could spin that as a failure, but of course, it would be difficult for Nairo to live up to the expectations of some people in this forum.

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

He isn't even close in reaching contador's climbing ability (pre ban), how is he even compared to pantani?

Nairo possess without a doubt better climbing abilities than Contador. Since he entered the peloton he is always there or thereabouts in the hunt for the stage win, rarely has a bad day or gets dropped and is the only rider in the last couple years who could take on and beat Froome (protected by a machine of a team) in the mountains. Pantani is whole different story but a peak Quintana versus a peak Contador would have only one logical winner and it ain´t the Spaniard.

Meanwhile Contador thanks half of his reputation by 2 TDF won against a weak (In climbing sense) field. He won his Tours against the likes of Evans, Leipheimer and a 37 year old Armstrong. The only guy of reasonable level he did beat in those 2 years was Andy Schleck. Would you consider Andy on Froome´s level? If Froome and his Sky boys would ride back then Contador wouldn´t have a TDF win to show, that much i´m sure of.

I always found Contador overrated and has luck and his back then competitors' dire level to thank - more than his ability. Throw a peak Froome and Quintana in the races between 2007 and 2009 and Contador would look nothing special.

What a peak quintana isn't better than a peak froome. You must be a troller...
You are thw typical quintana's fan who lives in a fairytale's world...

 

[MovistarRider]

Re: Re:

I never claimed that a peak Nairo is better than a peak Froome. Can you show me where and when i exactly made that claim? You can´t because i never said such a thing.

I said that would a peak Froome and a peak Quintana have been in the peloton between 2007 and 2009 that Contador would never had the succes he achieved back then thanks to a weak peloton.

It´s you being a typical Contador fan, bringing his name up in a other riders topic, comparing him and saying he is better and clearly reading things and claims i never typed. Yup, your typical Contador fan.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

If Quintana - the world's best climber - goes blank this year (which rather seems the case) I call failure. Again.

If Nairo manages to podium the Tour, it would be a very good season. I don't see how anyone could spin that as a failure, but of course, it would be difficult for Nairo to live up to the expectations of some people in this forum.

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

He isn't even close in reaching contador's climbing ability (pre ban), how is he even compared to pantani?

Nairo possess without a doubt better climbing abilities than Contador. Since he entered the peloton he is always there or thereabouts in the hunt for the stage win, rarely has a bad day or gets dropped and is the only rider in the last couple years who could take on and beat Froome (protected by a machine of a team) in the mountains. Pantani is whole different story but a peak Quintana versus a peak Contador would have only one logical winner and it ain´t the Spaniard.

Meanwhile Contador thanks half of his reputation by 2 TDF won against a weak (In climbing sense) field. He won his Tours against the likes of Evans, Leipheimer and a 37 year old Armstrong. The only guy of reasonable level he did beat in those 2 years was Andy Schleck. Would you consider Andy on Froome´s level? If Froome and his Sky boys would ride back then Contador wouldn´t have a TDF win to show, that much i´m sure of.

I always found Contador overrated and has luck and his back then competitors' dire level to thank - more than his ability. Throw a peak Froome and Quintana in the races between 2007 and 2009 and Contador would look nothing special.

Going off memory AC has beaten Froome just as much as Quintana. At least in GT's. And Quintana has lost more to Froome than AC has. For instance Quintana had no excuses in 2015 while AC did. I'm talking about when in they're all in relatively decent form.

 

[Sciocco]

Quintana fans celebrating losing...

Never gets old.

 

[MovistarRider]

Re: Re:

All in relatively form AC only managed to beat froome once, at the Vuelta 2014..i´ll give you that. The one in 2012 isn´t a fair duel since Froome did the TDF some weeks before and Contador not. If the criteria is all being in relatively decent form you have to exclude the 2012 Vuelta. Nairo did beat Froome last year in the Vuelta. So beating Froome at a GT in ´equal circumstances´ makes it a draw between AC and Nairo.

throw in the TDF they rode together and Quintana showed alot more threat to Froome then AC has ever managed. At least Nairo dropped Froome a couple of times in the mountains where AC has mostly been being dropped by Froome and never managed to make even a bit of a serious attack. So overall Nairo has showed much better level of competition against Froome in the GT´s than AC. It´s a fact that even the most deluded Contador fans cant deny.

But go ahead, i´m sure that some of you guys will find a way to twist it and come up with some new insights that will show that AC did much much better against Sky and Froome then Nairo managed to do and make it believable for yourself.

 

[MovistarRider]

Re:

Quintana fans celebrating losing...

Never gets old.

At least we got something to celebrate about. When was the last time AC and you guys had something to celebrate? And no, i´m not talking about those sort of tests they do once in awhile and doesn´t turn out to be positive..

 

[AlexNYC]

Re:

Quintana fans celebrating losing...

Never gets old.

Losing? Do you even watch cycling nowadays or are you stuck in the Armstrong era? He might only have 2 GT wins in addition to all his podiums, but he still wins a huge percentage of all the races in enters.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

All in relatively form AC only managed to beat froome once, at the Vuelta 2014..i´ll give you that. The one in 2012 isn´t a fair duel since Froome did the TDF some weeks before and Contador not. If the criteria is all being in relatively decent form you have to exclude the 2012 Vuelta. Nairo did beat Froome last year in the Vuelta. So beating Froome at a GT in ´equal circumstances´ makes it a draw between AC and Nairo.

throw in the TDF they rode together and Quintana showed alot more threat to Froome then AC has ever managed. At least Nairo dropped Froome a couple of times in the mountains where AC has mostly been being dropped by Froome and never managed to make even a bit of a serious attack. So overall Nairo has showed much better level of competition against Froome in the GT´s than AC. It´s a fact that even the most deluded Contador fans cant deny.

But go ahead, i´m sure that some of you guys will find a way to twist it and come up with some new insights that will show that AC did much much better against Sky and Froome then Nairo managed to do and make it believable for yourself.

Nairo can thank AC for helping him win the 2016 Vuelta. If it weren't for AC, Quintana's GT record would be worse. Nairo was never a threat to Froome in 2013 or 2016. He was in 2015. It can be said that AC wasn't because of the Giro.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

If Quintana - the world's best climber - goes blank this year (which rather seems the case) I call failure. Again.

If Nairo manages to podium the Tour, it would be a very good season. I don't see how anyone could spin that as a failure, but of course, it would be difficult for Nairo to live up to the expectations of some people in this forum.

Let's not forget that it's mostly the Quintana fans that are setting the bar high. We're hearing he's an ultramythical climber, soon to be an all-time great etc. etc. Yet he's not living up to that hype. Of course people will be critical. Either he's performing below his standards or Quintana fans have raised unrealistic expectations among the other forum members.

He isn't even close in reaching contador's climbing ability (pre ban), how is he even compared to pantani?

Nairo possess without a doubt better climbing abilities than Contador. Since he entered the peloton he is always there or thereabouts in the hunt for the stage win, rarely has a bad day or gets dropped and is the only rider in the last couple years who could take on and beat Froome (protected by a machine of a team) in the mountains. Pantani is whole different story but a peak Quintana versus a peak Contador would have only one logical winner and it ain´t the Spaniard.

Meanwhile Contador thanks half of his reputation by 2 TDF won against a weak (In climbing sense) field. He won his Tours against the likes of Evans, Leipheimer and a 37 year old Armstrong. The only guy of reasonable level he did beat in those 2 years was Andy Schleck. Would you consider Andy on Froome´s level? If Froome and his Sky boys would ride back then Contador wouldn´t have a TDF win to show, that much i´m sure of.

I always found Contador overrated and has luck and his back then competitors' dire level to thank - more than his ability. Throw a peak Froome and Quintana in the races between 2007 and 2009 and Contador would look nothing special.

I certainly agree with what you've written.
Contador himself has gone on record and repeatedly said in interviews that Froome is the first rival he's ever had problems against. Froome is a rival against whom he had to up the game to even compete against. So, yeah, for sure, it was a bit lucky that Contador got a field like that.

But then, Federer had such times in 2004-2006 where he was unbeatable and eventually the field caught him(Andy, Djoko, Rafa).

The thing is, this same argument will be dangled by everybody when a very strong GC contendor emerges and starts beating Froome.
Everybody in this forum would comment on how weak the field was in 2013, 2015 and 2016 and 2017(Hopefully).

 

[dacooley]

it's always possible to come up with an excuse. being subpar, getting sick in the process of the race, underrating the field, ultimately 'show me any who could predicted the dimoulin (landa, whoever) would be climbing in the giro' etc. as soon as grand favorite loses the race, we are doomed to find excuses in earnest.
still from my perspective, the fact that quintana and contador both took a shot at winning the giro-tour double itself indicates they regard themselves as at least potentially stronger grand tour riders. the double is not a type of things a rider does just out of interest or curiousity. both of them assume they are capable of defeating full-magic july froome even after riding (most likely winning the giro). in the light of that, i wouldn't consider even doing the giro much of an excuse. once you go in for the double you find it possible to reach a 100% peak for the tour and it's your fault (problem) if you fail to do that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Quintana fans celebrating losing...

Never gets old.

At least we got something to celebrate about. When was the last time AC and you guys had something to celebrate? And no, i´m not talking about those sort of tests they do once in awhile and doesn´t turn out to be positive..

If 2nd place is something to celebrate, us Contador fans got plenty of that this year :lol:

 

[LaFlorecita]

Peak Quintana would beat peak Contador, Contador not even in his best years had the climbing abilities of Quintana... I'm screaming & in tears my day has been made

 

[hrotha]

Contador's rivals at his prime were worse climbers than Quintana's because back then the routes didn't pander to the pure climbers quite as much as they've been doing for years now. Shocker.

They were better time-trialists. They were more complete. They were better GT riders.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Contador's rivals at his prime were worse climbers than Quintana's because back then the routes didn't pander to the pure climbers quite as much as they've been doing for years now. Shocker.

They were better time-trialists. They were more complete. They were better GT riders.

Who exactly are you referring to? I think, of all his challengers, only Evans potentially fits that description. Rasmussen, A Schleck, F Schleck, Scarponi, Ricco were all poor TTists for the most part and certainly not more complete than Quintana. And if you're referring to Leipheimer, Menchov or 2009 Armstrong, it's laughable to call them better GT riders.

Quintana would probably have won 4 or 5 GTs inthe 2007-2011 if he was active then. It's easily the weakest period in GT history since probably the 1960s.

 

[Red Rick]

Ladies and gentlemen. We've made it. We're here

It's a weak era debate.

 

[hrotha]

I for one don't think this is a weak era, I just think the riders that come to the fore are those that naturally do best on the routes of the day. What would Indurain be able to do on a murito-heavy Vuelta, for example?

And yes, I think Menchov and Leipheimer would have been better "GT" riders for the vast majority of the sport's history. Not because they were more talented, but because they were more complete.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Contador's rivals at his prime were worse climbers than Quintana's because back then the routes didn't pander to the pure climbers quite as much as they've been doing for years now. Shocker.

They were better time-trialists. They were more complete. They were better GT riders.

Who exactly are you referring to? I think, of all his challengers, only Evans potentially fits that description. Rasmussen, A Schleck, F Schleck, Scarponi, Ricco were all poor TTists for the most part and certainly not more complete than Quintana. And if you're referring to Leipheimer, Menchov or 2009 Armstrong, it's laughable to call them better GT riders.

Quintana would probably have won 4 or 5 GTs inthe 2007-2011 if he was active then. It's easily the weakest period in GT history since probably the 1960s.

I would say that Rasmussen and Schleck weren't worse climbers than Froome and Nibali. I think Rasmussen 2007 was better than Froome. I think Schleck was even with Froome with Froome being better on unipurto mountain satges but Schleck being better on the 3rd week, especially on the 200+km multi mountain stages. Quintana and Schleck were even climbers and TTers and both being stronger in final week in a multi mountain stage but Schleck is much better in one-day races.
Also as hrotha said, Leipheimer, Menchov and Evans were much more complete than Quintana, Aru, Pinot etc.
Also lol at 2007-2011 being the weakest when the records of Beille, Zoncolan, Tre Cime, Galibier, the all time vAM record of Verbier, Contador and Schleck climbing the Ventoux extremely fast while freewheeling against the headwind coming from that time.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Ladies and gentlemen. We've made it. We're here

It's a weak era debate.

Not sure there's much to debate really. When guys like Perreiro, Sastre and Evans start winning the biggest race in cycling - guys who've been around the block for ages and have never looked like anything more than podium fodder at best - you know it's a weak era.

It was even weak enough to convince Armstrong out of retirement, because he was putting out higher numbers in training as a 37 year old.

There's no way that anyone from that period, other than obviously Contador (who is head and shoulders above anyone else), will be looked upon as a great GT rider in the future.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Contador's rivals at his prime were worse climbers than Quintana's because back then the routes didn't pander to the pure climbers quite as much as they've been doing for years now. Shocker.

They were better time-trialists. They were more complete. They were better GT riders.

Who exactly are you referring to? I think, of all his challengers, only Evans potentially fits that description. Rasmussen, A Schleck, F Schleck, Scarponi, Ricco were all poor TTists for the most part and certainly not more complete than Quintana. And if you're referring to Leipheimer, Menchov or 2009 Armstrong, it's laughable to call them better GT riders.

Quintana would probably have won 4 or 5 GTs inthe 2007-2011 if he was active then. It's easily the weakest period in GT history since probably the 1960s.

I would say that Rasmussen and Schleck weren't worse climbers than Froome and Nibali. I think Rasmussen 2007 was better than Froome. I think Schleck was even with Froome with Froome being better on unipurto mountain satges but Schleck being better on the 3rd week, especially on the 200+km multi mountain stages. Quintana and Schleck were even climbers and both being stronger in final week in a multi mountain stage but Schleck is much better in one-day races.
Also as hrotha said, Leipheimer, Menchov and Evans were much more complete than Quintana, Aru, Pinot etc.
Also lol at 2007-2011 being the weakest when the records of Beille, Zoncolan, Tre Cime, Galibier, the all time vAM record of Verbier, Contador and Schleck climbing the Ventoux extremely fast while freewheeling against the headwind coming from that time.

Yeah, 2007 Rasmussen is a bit of an outlier. Assuming he would have finished the Tour strongly and been able to ride for the next few years at the same level, I think Contador almost certainly would still be chasing his first Tour win. But, as it stands, he didn't finish and so he is really just a footnote to the era, like Ricco or Kohl.

So based on your assessment of Froome v Schleck, you must think that Contador's level has massively dropped off since his ban. He's the one constant from both periods - and Froome destroys him in the TdF way more than Schleck did.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Yeah, 2007 Rasmussen is a bit of an outlier. Assuming he would have finished the Tour strongly and been able to ride for the next few years at the same level, I think Contador almost certainly would still be chasing his first Tour win.

You think he wouldn't have won the 2009 TDF?

So based on your assessment of Froome v Schleck, you must think that Contador's level has massively dropped off since his ban.

I thought that is basically accepted as a fact?

 

[Red Rick]

Fields change. Circumstances change. Riders decline and others rise. Very little use in comparisons based on one rider based on the assumption that he kept the same level.

 

[Red Rick]

If we go by Contador, the current field is incredible.

If we go by Valverde, the current field is weak

If we go by Nibali, the current field definitely closer