- Mar 13, 2009
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I do not believe preposterous claims that he could win 3 minutes more in 1 stage if he was at his best. Total ridicule.
In ultimate best Nairo form, maybe 1 minute more in that stage...
I believe he can be better, yes.carton said:
I do not believe preposterous claims that he could win 3 minutes more in 1 stage if he was at his best. Total ridicule.
In ultimate best Nairo form, maybe 1 minute more in that stage...
- Nov 7, 2010
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I've already witten about this on the Dumoulin thread. He's a worthy winner and rode a superb race and showed immense courage the times when he did crack to limit his losses. He obviously benefitted from weaker than expected rivals - but you can only beat what is infront of you and he did that. I've got no idea where you've got those w/kg numbers from; obviously you can't know, because we don't even know Dumoulin's true weight. Also, I think comparing Dumoulin to Nibali at this stage is way premature - he could just be the next Hesjedal yet.
No need for a personal attack here, this is just about cycling. Either debate the issues or don't - no need to be childish about it.Dekker_Tifosi said:
I've already witten about this on the Dumoulin thread. He's a worthy winner and rode a superb race and showed immense courage the times when he did crack to limit his losses. He obviously benefitted from weaker than expected rivals - but you can only beat what is infront of you and he did that. I've got no idea where you've got those w/kg numbers from; obviously you can't know, because we don't even know Dumoulin's true weight. Also, I think comparing Dumoulin to Nibali at this stage is way premature - he could just be the next Hesjedal yet.
- Mar 13, 2009
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It was good to see Quintana fight as well despite having bad legs. So many big GC names kind of give up mentally in that situation, but he tried to create opportunities every stage and even put in a great TT at the end. You have to respect that kind of fight. And, despite all the over-the-top criticism, he still came away from the race with 2nd place and a stage win - beating a guy like Nibali on home soil.
Indeed, I think it's clear Quintana would have won by several minutes if he had 2015 Tour or 2016 Vuelta form. Nibali too if the had 2014 Tour or end of Giro 2016 form. But we all knew that from the start, so it's nice for the race that it turned out to be much more of a close and intruiging battle.carton said:
It was good to see Quintana fight as well despite having bad legs. So many big GC names kind of give up mentally in that situation, but he tried to create opportunities every stage and even put in a great TT at the end. You have to respect that kind of fight. And, despite all the over-the-top criticism, he still came away from the race with 2nd place and a stage win - beating a guy like Nibali on home soil.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Well I'm not. I'm just saying it's way too early to compare him with a rider like Nibali. At the moment we just don't know whether Dumoulin will go on to be a GT monster, or be just a one hit wonder. What is for sure is that other GT riders will try to put him out of contention from day 1 in future races; no going under the radar until the third week any more. Which, hopefully, will result in some nice,early aggressive racing.Dekker_Tifosi said:
- May 5, 2010
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This! Okay, so he didn't attack as much as some people might have liked. Well... guess what! He's a human being. He can't just attack whenever people want him to.
lenric said:Such a **** storm about a guy who didn't do more because he had no legs to do more. Had no idea this would be harder and more debatable than quantum physics.
This! Okay, so he didn't attack as much as some people might have liked. Well... guess what! He's a human being. He can't just attack whenever people want him to.
- Mar 13, 2015
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Applaud for what?! For a 2nd place? For him who was an outright favorite? Give me a break! His shape was so bad, and you know that how? He said himself couple of times his numbers are good. Should we applaud for his 3rd place at the Tour too? His shape there was even worse, so why not. And for Vuelta 2015 too... Heck for every race he under performed we should applaud, no?
Seriously, he was outright favorite before the race, and it was his own fault certainly if he under performed. If he was in shape not good enough for the win, who's fault is this? He maybe thought that his 90-95% of top form would be enough, or he maybe didn't reach his peak form for unknown reasons, or his best just wasn't good enough for Dumoulin, who knows. But I know one thing, his 2nd place is certainly not some extraordinary achievement, and he certainly won't go down as a fighter after this Giro. If you ask me it was a mediocre performance all the way after Blockhaus, which was the only time in this race when he looked like peak shape Quintana.
DFA123 said:He did crack on the penultimate mountain stage. Where I was wrong was with the assumption that Quintana and Nibali would then dance up the road and take three or more minutes. Instead they were only be able to draft behind their already tired domestiques. Quintana just didn't have the legs; that much is obvious - although illness and the crash could also have played a role. Dumoulin gave him the opportunities on nearly every mountain stage in the last week to take back decisive time, but he just couldn't do it. Perhaps if he hadn't been so gentlemanly and had attacked immediately when Dumoulin had his problem of his own making from eating too many gels on Stelvio, instead of waiting for a few minutes, he'd have won the overall race. I guess that will always be a small asterisk against the win.Dekker_Tifosi said:Hehe, that's what DFA said after literally every stage.Netserk said:
He was so convinced dumoulin would crack and lose 5 minutes. Where is he now
It's absolute nonsense to suggest that some mythical tactics would have saved him. Movistar and Quintana tried everything; they got men in the break most stages, they split the race apart on a downhill, they drove a pace which dropped Dumoulin more than once inthe mountains. But Quintana didn't have the legs; it was a physiological not a tactical failure. And really,he should be applauded on coming out of the Giro with a 2nd place, given that his shape was so bad. A real fighter - I know of other riders who would throw in the towel with a showy attack rather than battling hard all three weeks.
Applaud for what?! For a 2nd place? For him who was an outright favorite? Give me a break! His shape was so bad, and you know that how? He said himself couple of times his numbers are good. Should we applaud for his 3rd place at the Tour too? His shape there was even worse, so why not. And for Vuelta 2015 too... Heck for every race he under performed we should applaud, no?
Seriously, he was outright favorite before the race, and it was his own fault certainly if he under performed. If he was in shape not good enough for the win, who's fault is this? He maybe thought that his 90-95% of top form would be enough, or he maybe didn't reach his peak form for unknown reasons, or his best just wasn't good enough for Dumoulin, who knows. But I know one thing, his 2nd place is certainly not some extraordinary achievement, and he certainly won't go down as a fighter after this Giro. If you ask me it was a mediocre performance all the way after Blockhaus, which was the only time in this race when he looked like peak shape Quintana.
- Aug 4, 2014
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You don't have to applaud. It's a free forum. If you like aggressive, attacking racing on nearly every stage, using up all your teammates 70km away to try to keep a gap, going from 50km out, not working for a podium, then yes, give it up for Quintana. If winning is your only criterion then surely Dumoulin deserves all the praise. He was the strongest over the parcours. Held on like the champion he is.Mr.White said:
- Nov 7, 2010
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I think it was kind of clear in the original post. A lot of riders give up mentally when they know they don't have their best form. They give themselves an excuse and then their performances suffer. Even more so if they crash or get ill. Quintana though was only 2nd or 1st throughout the race because he didn't give up - just like he kept fighting in the Tour last year even though he was way below his best. It takes a certain mental courage for a top rider and a regular winner to be humble enough to still fight when his attacks aren't sticking and when he's getting countered by 'lesser' riders. Yet Quintana did fight from start to finish, even though he was let down by his legs, attacking on loads of stages and came away with 2nd and a stage win. Chapeau Nairo.Mr.White said:
- Mar 13, 2015
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Well Chapeau then for Nibali, for fighting even though he haven't got legs like last year. Chapeau for Pinot for fighting and attacking throughout the race, although he had some bad moments, but he never surrendered. Chapeau for Zakarin for attacking and working on the front even after he and Pozzo get caught. Chapeau for Pozzo for the same thing as Zakarin. Chapeau for Mollema for working on the front for race leader Dumoulin. Chapeau for Jungels for the same thing, although bigger Chapeau cause he worked more. Chapeau for Yates for working for Dumoulin and catching Quintana/Nibali/Pinot/Zakarin group on stage 19. Chapeau for Landa for his breakaways after hard crash. Chapeau for Gaviria for stage wins. Chapeau for Thomas for being courageous and give up on his chances in GC and making a space for Landa success. And finally chapeau for Tom Dumoulin, although not big, cause he was not very courageous, he had the best legs after all...
You see, we could applaud many riders, but the question is do they really deserve it!
You see, we could applaud many riders, but the question is do they really deserve it!
- Nov 7, 2010
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Exactly this. I'm not really sure how anybody could have watched that race and not have the utmost respect from all of the top 5 as a result. Respecting and applauding riders doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It's clear the top 5 all gave it everything for the win and laid everything on the line during a really tough last week. Fighting until the last even though they were all physically onthe limit and giving us a great GC spectacle in the final week.carton said:
- Aug 4, 2014
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But then again he really won the race not with his attacks up Galibier or Peyresourde, but by being savvy enough, at 24, to calmly sit on Rasmussen's wheel up Plateau-de-Beille and pip him at the line. He took 2'12" out of his 23" lead in Paris on that day. Also, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember him going before the final mountain of the day.
That was Contador's most aggressive Tour. As I've mentioned, the only time he won a Tour by taking time on his rivals on à la pédale. I don't know if he attacked more than Nairo at this Giro, it was probably a fair bit less, but the way he went after a superior climber was more impressive, sure. It almost cost him the Tour when they DQd the Chicken. Also, that stage to Briançon is probably my all-time favourite Tour stage.perico said:
But then again he really won the race not with his attacks up Galibier or Peyresourde, but by being savvy enough, at 24, to calmly sit on Rasmussen's wheel up Plateau-de-Beille and pip him at the line. He took 2'12" out of his 23" lead in Paris on that day. Also, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember him going before the final mountain of the day.
- May 15, 2011
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There seem to be a lot of critics of Quintana as well...
But it's not that hard to understand why. Here we have a cyclist who is probably 1 Tour de France victory away from establishing himself as an all-time great - so the setbacks become magnified and increasingly frustrating to watch.
If (when?) Quintana fails to win this year's Tour I guarantee that the criticism will be non-stop and people will claim that Quintana will never, ever win the Tour nor has any hope of ever winning one.
But it's not that hard to understand why. Here we have a cyclist who is probably 1 Tour de France victory away from establishing himself as an all-time great - so the setbacks become magnified and increasingly frustrating to watch.
If (when?) Quintana fails to win this year's Tour I guarantee that the criticism will be non-stop and people will claim that Quintana will never, ever win the Tour nor has any hope of ever winning one.
As for long-range attacks, it's rare for a GT to be won that way. But the rare times it works, I notice a few elements.
(1) You need a tired peloton. That's a scenario that does not come around too often.
(2) It helps to have a breakway up the road that can give you support later.
(3) You need a strong chase group. This is the part people forget about. Ideally, you want other GC contenders, 1-2 teammates, a few all-arounders/breakaway specialists while dropping the odds-on favorite for the GC. The stars have to align for something like this to happen. Ideally you either have a teammate in the breakaway or someone in the chase group has a teammate in the breakaway.
There are exceptions but these elements definitely improve your chances. As for Quintana, it is extremely unlikely that he will try one in this year's Tour because the Sky Train will close the gap to any chase group.
The other option is to pull a Floyd Landis but I'm afraid that was a once-in-a-century ride.
(1) You need a tired peloton. That's a scenario that does not come around too often.
(2) It helps to have a breakway up the road that can give you support later.
(3) You need a strong chase group. This is the part people forget about. Ideally, you want other GC contenders, 1-2 teammates, a few all-arounders/breakaway specialists while dropping the odds-on favorite for the GC. The stars have to align for something like this to happen. Ideally you either have a teammate in the breakaway or someone in the chase group has a teammate in the breakaway.
There are exceptions but these elements definitely improve your chances. As for Quintana, it is extremely unlikely that he will try one in this year's Tour because the Sky Train will close the gap to any chase group.
The other option is to pull a Floyd Landis but I'm afraid that was a once-in-a-century ride.
FYI, in this year's Giro stages 19 and 20 provided Quintana's best chances. In both stages the peloton was too strong and was able to limit losses. Zakarin almost pulled it off in stage 20 but was forced to pull back because the peloton refused to crack.
- Aug 4, 2014
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But, the whole thing about him being a conservative rider, when he's in fact the most aggressive one we've seen in decades just drives me up the wall. It's just the type of ahistorical fantasy that gnaws at me more than it should.
And he has grown on me, a bit, with his campaigns for women's rights and against corruption in sport. I particularly like the way he pushes back against the factless narrative that he was a poor peasant that couldn't afford a bus ride to school and so had to ride up them thar hills. A resolute contrarian after my own heart, in that regard. The more I know of him the more he seems like a legit good person, if a little too cutthroat on the bike.
On Contador: I was always an Andy fan. That was the first time I started favouring the lithe attacker over the dominating time-triallist. So that shades my opinions, to be sure. His latter-day retconning as some sort of derring-do maverick has gone too far and then some and then some. He has plenty of heart and tactical nous and as his legs have faded he has come up with some gems when pinned against the wall. But he won his Grand Tours with the steadfast patience of a metronome.
If you're pointing at me, then to be honest, he wasn't my favourite rider. I was an Indurain and Ullrich fan growing up, and Quintana in particular reminds me of that guy in the chain-gang who lets me drag him on the plains only to rip my legs off once we get to any sort of incline. I was avidly rooting for Rigo when Quintana made his Stelvio escapade.LaFlorecita said:
But, the whole thing about him being a conservative rider, when he's in fact the most aggressive one we've seen in decades just drives me up the wall. It's just the type of ahistorical fantasy that gnaws at me more than it should.
And he has grown on me, a bit, with his campaigns for women's rights and against corruption in sport. I particularly like the way he pushes back against the factless narrative that he was a poor peasant that couldn't afford a bus ride to school and so had to ride up them thar hills. A resolute contrarian after my own heart, in that regard. The more I know of him the more he seems like a legit good person, if a little too cutthroat on the bike.
On Contador: I was always an Andy fan. That was the first time I started favouring the lithe attacker over the dominating time-triallist. So that shades my opinions, to be sure. His latter-day retconning as some sort of derring-do maverick has gone too far and then some and then some. He has plenty of heart and tactical nous and as his legs have faded he has come up with some gems when pinned against the wall. But he won his Grand Tours with the steadfast patience of a metronome.
- Apr 16, 2009
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In the Giro he had the perfect opportunity on the Stelvio stage. I am sure he would have dropped Dumoulin if he had the strength. The only thing that I am doubtful about is who would have gone with him. This would have changed the development of the stage because those who stayed behind would have most likely helped Dumoulin.
- Apr 16, 2009
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I guess Froome does not consider Quintana a threat for the Tour de France. Or maybe a third threat after Porte, Contador and Bardet. Not even Valverde. Is he playing mind games with them?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-my-biggest-tour-de-france-threats-are-porte-contador-bardet/
I am understand accepting the potential of being depleted after the Giro. But would he rather chase Bardet than Quintana if he finds himself in a critical situation ?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-my-biggest-tour-de-france-threats-are-porte-contador-bardet/
I am understand accepting the potential of being depleted after the Giro. But would he rather chase Bardet than Quintana if he finds himself in a critical situation ?
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