Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[Netserk]

Re:

Even if not at 100%, Quintana was still the strongest climber with the strongest team. Of course he could have tried more than what he did.

But Dumoulin will crack eventually!!!!! No worries, Quintana has everything under control...

 

[IndianCyclist]

On Blockhaus he was imperious
On Oropa he got schooled
Unzue decided that TD would crack sometime in the last week by 5 min. So all he had to do was to follow Nibali considering that the TDF was also coming to conserve energy. As usual by the time TD cracked it was too late like TDF 2015. There is a pattern here. All he had to do what he did in blockhaus, changes in pace to crack TD or Purito style attack on the last k of the final climb but the thought of competing in the TDF probably damped his enthusiasm for attacking.

 

[carton]

Re:

Even if not at 100%, Quintana was still the strongest climber with the strongest team. Of course he could have tried more than what he did.

So we're back to comparing him against some theoretical ideal instead of his peers? Sure. Anyone can try more. To any effect? Doubtful. I don't think he could have gotten away from Dumoulin on the Stelvio. Just didn't seem to have it that day. He could've not waited for him at all, maybe, but that's not something I would've advocated. Less attacks, saving his teammates legs, trying to get Pinot to go with him instead of dragging him: all more likely avenues to success, IMHO.

But again, he did as he does. Compared to his peers? He attacked more times in more stages (and from further out) than any GT contender since, I don't know, at least Schleck in 2011. Probably longer. He took more time on the road against a GT winner than anyone since maybe Chiapucci.

Feel free to correct me on the latter, where data is a thing and objectivity a somewhat attainable goal. On the former I well know that Contador's two counter-attacks a GT are far more courageous and impressive because of all of that beautiful gurning.

 

[offbyone]

I assume to standard excuse for Quintana is that he was not on his top form so he could do the double. Alternatively, maybe he was just racing too conservative.

But if you don't look at the big picture, while his team helped him tremendously, at the same time it appears that he failed to take advantage of his team during this race. Multiple times they set him up to have riders up the road who he could not take advantage of. I imagine that he would have lost a lot of time if he was riding for a weaker team.

 

[hrotha]

How am I not comparing him to his peers? I'm comparing him to Pinot, Zakarin, Nibali (except at the 2017 Giro), Chaves, Contador, Aru and many others. Again, I don't think Quintana's short accelerations count as proper attacks, but hey, feel free to believe he's not a conservative rider.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Even with the Giro in line, he was still flicking elbows, not doing proper pulls and asking for others to basically tow him, not to mention his pathetic riding on the other mountain stages in the 3rd week, especially the stage to Bormio.

Lol, this is so much over the top. I cannot take this serious anymore

Which part of my post do you disagree with?

How am I not comparing him to his peers? I'm comparing him to Pinot, Zakarin, Nibali (except at the 2017 Giro), Chaves, Contador, Aru and many others. Again, I don't think Quintana's short accelerations count as proper attacks, but hey, feel free to believe he's not a conservative rider.

And even then, Nibali in his most conservative race for many years was still as aggressive as Quintana and he was actually taking some proper pulls on the road to Asiago.

 

[yaco]

Re:

How am I not comparing him to his peers? I'm comparing him to Pinot, Zakarin, Nibali (except at the 2017 Giro), Chaves, Contador, Aru and many others. Again, I don't think Quintana's short accelerations count as proper attacks, but hey, feel free to believe he's not a conservative rider.

It's an attack when you get up the road by 10 or 20 or 30 seconds - Whether you can hold that attack is another issue - I suppose you can twist things to suit an agenda.

 

[HelloDolly]

Same as the Contador thread...if the rider doesn't go well its because he is not in top form....how in all that is holy do you know this...Before the Giro he was going to be flying in the final week !!! What happened to those predictions

Maybe just maybe Quintana just doesn't have it against Froome and now Dumoulin ...that is as good an explanation as any on here ..maybe this is top Quintana ....and its funny how there are so many excuses when things dont go as planned

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Even with the Giro in line, he was still flicking elbows, not doing proper pulls and asking for others to basically tow him, not to mention his pathetic riding on the other mountain stages in the 3rd week, especially the stage to Bormio.

Lol, this is so much over the top. I cannot take this serious anymore

Which part of my post do you disagree with?
You are calling him pathetic because he doesn't have it, the ability to sustain an attack. It has become so ridiclous at this point.
Have you ridden bikes? Competively? Ffs, you can't go faster than your body allows you do. Now deal with that. God it has become annoying at this point.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Even with the Giro in line, he was still flicking elbows, not doing proper pulls and asking for others to basically tow him, not to mention his pathetic riding on the other mountain stages in the 3rd week, especially the stage to Bormio.

Lol, this is so much over the top. I cannot take this serious anymore

Which part of my post do you disagree with?
You are calling him pathetic because he doesn't have it, the ability to sustain an attack. It has become so ridiclous at this point.
Have you ridden bikes? Competively? Ffs, you can't go faster than your body allows you do. Now deal with that. God it has become annoying at this point.

Become a bit calm firstly. Also, do you think he was at his very limit on Umbrail? I think he could have dropped Nibali there. Plus he had 3 teammates ahead on the Stelvio and he only waited! And even if he had tried a bit harder on somewhere else he could have won. (let's say, attacking earlier in Foza e.g.)

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re: Re:

Even if not at 100%, Quintana was still the strongest climber with the strongest team. Of course he could have tried more than what he did.

But Dumoulin will crack eventually!!!!! No worries, Quintana has everything under control...

Hehe, that's what DFA said after literally every stage.

He was so convinced dumoulin would crack and lose 5 minutes. Where is he now

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

How am I not comparing him to his peers? I'm comparing him to Pinot, Zakarin, Nibali (except at the 2017 Giro), Chaves, Contador, Aru and many others. Again, I don't think Quintana's short accelerations count as proper attacks, but hey, feel free to believe he's not a conservative rider.

It's an attack when you get up the road by 10 or 20 or 30 seconds - Whether you can hold that attack is another issue - I suppose you can twist things to suit an agenda.

Ok, what's the issue if it's not that you can't hold the attack, but simply that you don't wanna?

I think this is super obvious, but hey. To each their own.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

I think this is super obvious, but hey. To each their own.

Ah, yes, Nairo in his heart of hearts really doesn't want to drop anyone. It just ends up happening regardless. They just drop on their own, oblivious of Quintana and his non-attack accelerations. That's how he's taken time on the road off every single one of his peers the last two Grand Tours. By being passive. Just like he puts out more power than the other guys on his group, without taking proper turns. There's just something about him that defies physics, the blessed lad.

Must be fun. Nairo Reilly.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Even if not at 100%, Quintana was still the strongest climber with the strongest team. Of course he could have tried more than what he did.

But Dumoulin will crack eventually!!!!! No worries, Quintana has everything under control...

Hehe, that's what DFA said after literally every stage.

He was so convinced dumoulin would crack and lose 5 minutes. Where is he now

He did crack on the penultimate mountain stage. Where I was wrong was with the assumption that Quintana and Nibali would then dance up the road and take three or more minutes. Instead they were only be able to draft behind their already tired domestiques. Quintana just didn't have the legs; that much is obvious - although illness and the crash could also have played a role. Dumoulin gave him the opportunities on nearly every mountain stage in the last week to take back decisive time, but he just couldn't do it. Perhaps if he hadn't been so gentlemanly and had attacked immediately when Dumoulin had his problem of his own making from eating too many gels on Stelvio, instead of waiting for a few minutes, he'd have won the overall race. I guess that will always be a small asterisk against the win.

It's absolute nonsense to suggest that some mythical tactics would have saved him. Movistar and Quintana tried everything; they got men in the break most stages, they split the race apart on a downhill, they drove a pace which dropped Dumoulin more than once inthe mountains. But Quintana didn't have the legs; it was a physiological not a tactical failure. And really,he should be applauded on coming out of the Giro with a 2nd place, given that his shape was so bad. A real fighter - I know of other riders who would throw in the towel with a showy attack rather than battling hard all three weeks.

 

[DanielSong39]

I don't think Quintana was caught surprise by the level of the winner.

Someone was going to be strong and perform well above expectations. It happened to be Dumoulin this time; it could've been Pinot, Zakarin, Nibali, Thomas, Landa, or 5-10 other riders who hit peak form and mostly avoided bad luck. Actually all things considered the level of the winner was not very high. Grand Tours are often won by minutes with big gaps by the time you get to 5th place.

So it really comes down to Quintana being below par. If he was feeling like a million dollars he would've flown away solo in the last few km of the final climb and gain ~30-60 seconds on his competition every time. He's done that a number of times in his career (including 3 times in last year's Vuelta) but just couldn't get it done in the Giro.

We saw something similar to this in last year's Tour so it's not too surprising, just disappointing.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

I think this is super obvious, but hey. To each their own.

Ah, yes, Nairo in his heart of hearts really doesn't want to drop anyone. It just ends up happening regardless. They just drop on their own, oblivious of Quintana and his non-attack accelerations. That's how he's taken time on the road off every single one of his peers the last two Grand Tours. By being passive. Just like he puts out more power than the other guys on his group, without taking proper turns. There's just something about him that defies physics, the blessed lad.

Must be fun. Nairo Reilly.

Of course he wants to drop everybody, he just doesn't really want to take any risks. In particular, he seems terrified of someone else following his wheel and then attacking and dropping him.

Quintana is not averse to attacking per se. He has no trouble attacking when he knows he is superior to his rivals. But he's averse to taking risks. He's like Majka in that regard (but obviously with a much greater athletic potential).

 

[DanielSong39]

As for time trials, they can be overcome - but you just need good breaks. Nibali was mediocre in the first time trial and dreadful in the second time trial in last year's Giro and still pulled on the pink jersey. The other option is to ride the time trial of your life. Dumoulin left the door ajar with a good-but-not-great performance in the final time trial in this year's Giro but Quintana could not break through.

 

[lenric]

Such a *** storm about a guy who didn't do more because he had no legs to do more. Had no idea this would be harder and more debatable than quantum physics.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I think this is super obvious, but hey. To each their own.

Ah, yes, Nairo in his heart of hearts really doesn't want to drop anyone. It just ends up happening regardless. They just drop on their own, oblivious of Quintana and his non-attack accelerations. That's how he's taken time on the road off every single one of his peers the last two Grand Tours. By being passive. Just like he puts out more power than the other guys on his group, without taking proper turns. There's just something about him that defies physics, the blessed lad.

Must be fun. Nairo Reilly.

Of course he wants to drop everybody, he just doesn't really want to take any risks. In particular, he seems terrified of someone else following his wheel and then attacking and dropping him.

Quintana is not averse to attacking per se. He has no trouble attacking when he knows he is superior to his rivals. But he's averse to taking risks. He's like Majka in that regard (but obviously with a much greater athletic potential).

It's pretty obvious why isn't it? Quintana needs to win GTs by taking time in the mountains; if a main rival follows him, then he's basically helping them to neutralize his main advantage. He didn't have any probelm with Brambilla and Contador following him in the Vuelta last year for example; Contador was sat on his wheel for about 5km, and Brambilla for about 15km on the climb to Formigal, and Nairo didn't ask them to take a a turn, and didn't seem terrified when Brambilla dropped him at the end. Because they were not serous GC threats. It would be ridiculous to sit on and give Nibali a free ride when he's 30 seconds behind and is usually a stronger TTist.

 

[DanielSong39]

If you've seen Quintana in good form you've seen him drop guys like Nibali, Froome, and Contador like a stone.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

DFA's definition of cracking is also wrong.

Having a bad day and only losing 1 minute is not cracking in my book.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

DFA's definition of cracking is also wrong.

Having a bad day and only losing 1 minute is not cracking in my book.

That's not surprising, because you don't deal in nuance. Dumoulin cracked, but the others couldn't punish him for it, which is why he only lost a minute. Quintana in Vuelta form or Nibali in end of Giro 2016 form would have taken 3+ minutes out of him on that stage.

Obviously he's a deserved winner. But also lucky that his main rivals were below par and couldn't punish his big weaknesses, and that a couple of other riders saved him because he happened to be born in a similar area to them.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

In particular, he seems terrified of someone else following his wheel and then attacking and dropping him.

Sure. Just like every single one of his peers. Pinot. Nibali. Dumoulin, not only flicking his elbow but later complaining about the assistance he didn't get. Contador, so many times, flicking his elbow like a champ, trying to get Movi to chase after Chaves or De La Cruz to put time on Henao. Or Froome, on the road to Formigal. He was right to do so. He wasn't particularly strong that day, and took too much wind. A great champion undone by simple physics and biology. On this planet, we are but animals bound by natural laws, not souls whose performance reflect only the strength of their convictions.

Quintana is not adverse to attacking per se. He has no trouble attacking when he knows he is superior to his rivals. But he's adverse to taking risks. He's like Majka in that regard (but obviously with a much greater athletic potential).

He didn't seem particularly adverse on Oropa, or Ventoux, or LPSM, or so many other times where he "accelerated" from far out even though he wasn't far superior and ended up fading. Might have cost him a Tour and a Giro.

In the end you never know how good you are relative to the competition until you go. Most riders are terrified of being countered. And yet he goes. And goes. And goes. And takes time, some times. But not every time. And yet he still keeps going and going. Again, IMHO, that's why he's not just the most aggressive rider of the moment, but of the past decade, at least.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If they would take 3 minutes then they would have to be at 6.4 w/kg level. That's *** in stage 19 of Giro. I'm calling you full of sh*te DFA.

The numbers simply don't add up.

You're too proud to admit you were wrong about Dumoulin. Be a man. I long since admitted I was wrong about Nibali years ago, when I never believed in him. Similar situation.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

He didn't seem particularly troubled on Oropa, or Formigal, or Ventoux, or LPSM, or so many other times where he "accelerated" from far out even though he wasn't far superior and ended up fading.

In the end you never know how good you are relative to the competition until you go. Most riders are terrified of being countered. And yet he goes. And goes. And goes. And takes time, some times. But not every time. And yet he still keeps going and going. Again, he's not just the most aggressive rider of the moment, but of the past decade, at least.

Very much this. He's easily the most attacking and courageous GT rider of his generation. Even in this Giro, with horrible legs and possibly suffering from crash/illness, he took at least a minute out of everyone on the climbs alone. He attacked uphill, downhill, from 50km out and even used up his whole team, leaving himself isolated on one stage 100km from the finish to try to propel a break with only a slim chance of making it.