Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

To do proper pulls like Pinot and Nibali did.

He took longer pulls and put out much more power in W/Kg according to Velon on that last part. You wanted shorter, weaker pulls from him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hzDFemofew

 

[hrotha]

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

 

[carton]

Thanks for that, Netserk. Was meaning to do a blow-by-blow. starting on 36:19". Quintana attacks.
36'40". Nibali counters.
36'42". Camera on Zakarin.
36'45". Nibali still accelarting. Quick cuts here.
36'50". Camera back on Dumo group.
36'58". Camera back on Quintana doing a turn. Flicks elbow.
37'15". Nibali now does a turn.
37"26". Camera pans out.
37'34". Camera back on. Nairo at the front.
37'50". Nibali refuses a turn.
38'03". Nibali finally gets in front.
38'05". Camera back on the Dumo group.
38'11". Nibali in front.
38'18". Camera back to Zaka/Pozzo.
39"06". Nibali in front. Nairo does a turn/attack.
39"23". Camera back on Dumo group.
39"36". Replay on Dumoulin, trying to get his group to rotate. Reichenback on the front.
39"40". Nairo on the front.
39'46". Camera pans back as Nibali seems to start a turn.
39'53". Nibali on the front.
40'11". Nibali swing out. Camera pans back.
40"13". Pinot goes. Drags group back.
40'36". Camera back on the attackers. Nairo on the front.
40'48". Camera pans forward back as Nibali seems to start a turn.
41'32". Nibali in front
41'49". Quintana in front as Pinot bridges. Quintana keeps it up to try to maintain a gap.
42'26". Quintana flicks his elbow. Pinot attacks.
43'16". Pinot looks around around. Kicks again to try to keep the gap.
43'38". Pinots flicks his elbow. Camera pans back as Quintana seems to to start a turn.
43'46". Pinot takes the front from Quintana.
43"49". Camera pans back.
44'00". Quintana attacks.
44'28". Camera pans back.
44'42". Quintana still in front. Flicks elbow.
44'58". Camera pans to the front.
45'08". Quintana still in front.
45'17". Camera pans back. Then forward.
45'32". Quintana still in front. Group catches up.
45'47". Jungels does a turn. Flicks
46'12". Camera pans out as Quintana does a turn.
46'32". Pinot attacks.
47'08". Nairo counters.
47"18. Quintana slows, stays in front.
47'25". Pinot does a turn.
47'38". Pinot flicks. Quintana does a turn.
47'55". Pinot attacks. Nibali catches up.
48'18". Pinot flicks. they're all next to each other.
48'22". Camera goes elsewhere. They replay Nibali starting a turn. Quintana ask them to rotate, goes to the front.
49'06". We catch back to live with the MR group.
49'13". Pinot flicks as he finishes a turn. Nibali goes to the front.
49'21". Camera pans on Dumo's Gorup.
49'35". Camera pans forward. Quintana back on font.
49'41". Pinot does a turn.
49'48". Pinot looks back. Nibali does a turn.
49'58". They go back to the front.
50'36". We catch back to the MR group. Nibali doing a turn. .
50'46". Nibali flicks his elbow. Quintana goes to the front.
50'49". Camera goes back to the Dumo group. Jungels burying himself.
51'06. Camera pans out. We can catch a glimpse of Pinot doing a turn.
51'14". Nibali does a turn.
51'18". Quintan back to the front.
51"23". Pinot does a turn/attack.
51"36". He slows, sits down.
51'41". Nibali does a turn
51'48". Camera goes to the front.
52"11". Camera pans back. Pinot in the front.
52'19". Camera keeps panning back. We see the Dumo group now.
52'50". Camera back as Pinot takes over from Nibali.
53'01". Camera goes to the front.
53'23". We catch back. Quintana in front.
53'37". Quintana flicks. Nibali takes over as the camera goes front again.
53'38". I've had enough of this.

You can continue that. Or go back. Or edit it wherever you feel needs editing. I'd add it up but I think it's pretty evident as is. Pinot, Nibali and Quintana all chipped in (though Pinot once again had Reichenback pull back the attackers instead of trying a bridge, as he was going understandably going for the podium first). But it's Quintana is doing the bigger share.

Here's the Velon data, BTW:
Climb.

Flat.

 

[DanielSong39]

It's pretty safe to say that a peak Quintana would've had a 3+ minute going into the final stage time trial and made this all academic. The dude simply didn't have the legs; what else is there to say?

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Little Q aint catching a break aint he.

I really believe that many here have this video game mentality totallay detached from the reality of the sport and these same folk are predisposed to rag on Quintana no matter what he does. He attacks but he doesn't attack enough or they just didn't see it. Or he didn't attack enough. Is it possible he was tired and just didn't have the legs?

 

[MovistarRider]

The double failed, at least for now.

Nairo simply didn't have the legs. If this was due to not being 100% (riding with saving energy for the Tour), not being good enough, TD just being better or because of the crash or the little illnes we'll never know. Fact is, he tried his all but couldn't KO Tom Dumoulin and the other important fact is he didn't win the Giro.

Alot of people are disappointed by Nairo's showing in the past 3 weeks, which to some extent is perfectly understandable, but some of the criticism has been over the top. Can't it just be that Nairo tried but just wasn't good enough and Tom Dumoulin was better than he and Movistar thought would be? Could it be that he was just being beaten by a rider who was better prepared and who happens to be a much, much, much better TT'er who had the advantage of 70 km TT? Seriously one should realise that Nairo can't win every GT he attends. The cycling-world doesn't revolve around Nairo Quintana. He didn't win the Giro, so is it fair to say that he was not good enough and even being slightly disappointing? Yes. But most of the people are forgetting (In their criticism of Nairo) that TD drove a brilliant Giro.

That being said, I feel alot of hate being thrown around at Nairo. And I'm not just talking about CN forum in particular. No, Nairo is getting abused by the whole Cycling world in general. From the media, most non-Movistar/Quintana cycling fans, the i-net and even from colleagues in the peloton. There is a very weird strong anti-Quintana movement going on right now. It feels like around 8 out the 10 people (being it riders or cycling followers) hopes Nairo's Grand Tour campaign ends in failure. Something being not right..

Tom Dumoulin's comment ''They like me more than Quintana [And Nibali]'' was already strange..why would you say something like that?

Yates, Mollema and Jungels riding as a team for TD like a couple of a med men trying to ensure the GT victory for their teamleader was also strange. Hold on, it's ugly and getting uglier.

Monday Jos van Emden was a guest at the most popular tv talk show in the Netherlands called 'RTL Late Night'. He was calling Nairo an assh0le, troublesome/nasty guy (vervelende jongen) and told that Nairo ''is one of the guys he disliked the most in the peloton 'cause he is such a nasty guy''. It kept me thinking, why on earth would a rider in the pro peloton say something like that about a other rider on national tv? It doesn't make sense.

But the saddest and most ignorant part of it all is the online comments about Quintana being written. It's one thing to dislike a driver just because his style on the bike or being a rival to your favourite team/driver..it's another thing when racial slurs come in to play..that left me just plain sad.

It all began with comments on a dutch news site where there was an article with Nairo saying ''Dumoulin has been helped alot by his allies''. Some of the comments on that article almost left me throwing up. So i decided to check out some of the English, French and Germans people's opinons and came to the following conclusion that the vast majority of people where not just being happy TD won the Giro but actually being more happy for the fact that Quintana was being beaten. Comments like ''Lost the Giro and will get schooled by Froome in the Tour'' / ''Not a true Champion like Contador, Nibali, Froome..doesn't have a place in the fantastic four'' / ''Just a another Colombian who peaked early and will not win a GT anymore'' / ''Typical Colombian 80's climber who doesn't posses any other skills on the bike'' are circling around. Comments made by people who mostly live in Europe.

Even staying in the so called 'Fantastic Four' (Contador, Nibali, Froome, Quintana) fanbases i always get the impression the Contador, Nibali and Froome fans dislike Quintana more than the 2 other rivals.

It got me thinking, why is there such a dislike for a short guy that weights just 58 kg and who happens to be the first rider since Eddy Merckx and Bernard Hinault to podiumed three consecutive Grand Tours? Is it that the majority thinks he's not brave enough on his bicycle for their taste or does it have more to do with his lookism/physical appearance and/or the fact he is Colombian?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Little Q aint catching a break aint he.

I really believe that many here have this video game mentality totallay detached from the reality of the sport and these same folk are predisposed to rag on Quintana no matter what he does. He attacks but he doesn't attack enough or they just didn't see it. Or he didn't attack enough. Is it possible he was tired and just didn't have the legs?

Quintana very rarely goes through with an attack. He accelerates and stops when he sees someone on his wheel. It's not a video game mentality at all - I don't compare him to my virtual exploits, but to his peers.

 

[LaFlorecita]

That to me is one of the most frustrating things about him. It's almost as though he's physically incapable of pushing on with someone on his wheel. Sometimes you can't drop someone with 1 sharp attack, but it takes some perseverance. See for example Contador's attack on the last stage of Paris-Nice. If he had stopped when Henao was still on his wheel after 20m, he wouldn't have gotten as close to the win as he did. Instead, he kept going for several 100m, and in the end Henao cracked.

 

[Volderke]

Re:

That to me is one of the most frustrating things about him. It's almost as though he's physically incapable of pushing on with someone on his wheel. Sometimes you can't drop someone with 1 sharp attack, but it takes some perseverance. See for example Contador's attack on the last stage of Paris-Nice. If he had stopped when Henao was still on his wheel after 20m, he wouldn't have gotten as close to the win as he did. Instead, he kept going for several 100m, and in the end Henao cracked.

Quintana attacks a lot on climbs e.g. he attacks 5 times and the 5th time he is loose. So I don't understand the comment he isn't using perseverance. His strength is pushing his competitors over their limits for short times so he can wear them out. This obviously doesn't work when you are not in the greatest shape (this giro).

His attacks may be calculated but I am pretty sure he tries his best and sometimes just doesn't have it. You cannot blame any rider who tries hard and doesn't get away.

Regarding the critique (and nasty comments) Quintana received: I feel sadly the same way as Movistar rider commented. I feel that English / Dutch / ... really have no feeling at all to correctly interprete the nuance of Quintana's arguably funny / respectful / inspirational / ... comments and interviews. They pick out some quotes without context and are scrutinizing him for every single subjectively picked word or move in the race.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

That to me is one of the most frustrating things about him. It's almost as though he's physically incapable of pushing on with someone on his wheel. Sometimes you can't drop someone with 1 sharp attack, but it takes some perseverance. See for example Contador's attack on the last stage of Paris-Nice. If he had stopped when Henao was still on his wheel after 20m, he wouldn't have gotten as close to the win as he did. Instead, he kept going for several 100m, and in the end Henao cracked.

Yeah, or see Pantani riding the entirety of Alpe d'huez at the front even when his attacks failed to immediately drop Ullrich and Virenque. He just kept it on, attacked out of every hairpin and eventually they were all gone.

It's a great strategy when you are completely superior.

When you have a smaller edge than that, remaining at the front following a failed attack can dull that edge to nothing which is why Quintana is so averse to it.

To be fair, when the objective is to put time into someone already dropped and Quintana is the one who has most to gain, he really should just keep riding at the front and accept that this will weaken him relative to those sitting in his wheel. I do think he was too reluctant to do this at the Giro.

 

[carton]

Re:

That to me is one of the most frustrating things about him. It's almost as though he's physically incapable of pushing on with someone on his wheel. Sometimes you can't drop someone with 1 sharp attack, but it takes some perseverance. See for example Contador's attack on the last stage of Paris-Nice. If he had stopped when Henao was still on his wheel after 20m, he wouldn't have gotten as close to the win as he did. Instead, he kept going for several 100m, and in the end Henao cracked.

A) It was Paris Nice.
B) As soon as Contador got to the next group, he was asking them to work, because, physics.
C) When Henao was able to cover attacks and keep his group together, he gained back the time in the downhill and won the race, because, physics. So it's somewhat overstating things to say he "cracked".

It's not a video game mentality at all - I don't compare him to my virtual exploits, but to his peers.

Compared to his peers in this Giro, Quintana attacked, more, from longer, worked more when he had to work and took timed on all of them à la pédale.

Sam, I agree with most of that but Pantani at Alpe d'Huez attacked much like Quintana, going several times and dropping his competitors. After four accelerations in about four minutes. The better example, IMHO, was Indurain at La Plagne. That was a freaking awesome performance that was imperiously dominant, the likes of which I never saw before or since. Pretty sure we're not getting that ever again. But the closest thing I've seen since is Quintana at Formigal, when just put his nose to the wind and rode eight of his nine remaining breakaway companions clean off his wheel, including Alberto Contador and two other guys who finished in the top10 in the GC. Fittingly he got second that day, as did Indurain.

Yes, Quintana needs to be a little more like Contador. But just a little, because he can't rely on his time-trialing. He can't do what Contador did in the 2014 Vuelta, which is to sit on wheels the whole Tour and only counter twice once they're well within the kite. But he can do it on certain stages that don't suit him, like this years' to Oropa. Again, had he been that savvy he might have well won the Giro.

 

[DanielSong39]

Quintana needs a strong ride in the mountains and have the time trial of his life to win the Tour de France. Hey, it worked for Carlos Sastre and Cadel Evans, so why not Quintana?

Or, maybe he will "win" a Tour de France with a good time trial that secures a runner-up finish. That worked for Oscar Pereiro and Andy Schleck.

If he can win (and he needs to win, not "win") a Tour de France he will be the 7th cyclist to win all 3 Grand Tours and will be moved to the class of historical greats. Let's see if he can do it!

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Look at the flicka da elbow

 

[lenric]

Re:

Quintana needs a strong ride in the mountains and have the time trial of his life to win the Tour de France. Hey, it worked for Carlos Sastre and Cadel Evans, so why not Quintana?

I don't know what to say about this.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

It's pretty safe to say that a peak Quintana would've had a 3+ minute going into the final stage time trial and made this all academic. The dude simply didn't have the legs; what else is there to say?

This. Simple.

The numbers from the third week in Tour 2013 and 2015 were not there in this Giro. They were lower. There are other factors, I know, but bottom line the numbers were not there.

The only loss opportunity that I really saw is when he didn't go in the attack at the same time with Nibali and Pinot on stage 20. He waited too long. Even with that there was no warranty that he would pull the time that he needed. Other days you could visibly see he was subpar. Even on that stage 20 he was not at his best.

With this loss opportunity is kind of hard to make a key moment count when you are simply weak. fatigue makes cowards of us all.

 

[Escarabajo]

....

It all began with comments on a dutch news site where there was an article with Nairo saying ''Dumoulin has been helped alot by his allies''. Some of the comments on that article almost left me throwing up. So i decided to check out some of the English, French and Germans people's opinons and came to the following conclusion that the vast majority of people where not just being happy TD won the Giro but actually being more happy for the fact that Quintana was being beaten. Comments like ''Lost the Giro and will get schooled by Froome in the Tour'' / ''Not a true Champion like Contador, Nibali, Froome..doesn't have a place in the fantastic four'' / ''Just a another Colombian who peaked early and will not win a GT anymore'' / ''Typical Colombian 80's climber who doesn't posses any other skills on the bike'' are circling around. Comments made by people who mostly live in Europe.

...

It got me thinking, why is there such a dislike for a short guy that weights just 58 kg and who happens to be the first rider since Eddy Merckx and Bernard Hinault to podiumed three consecutive Grand Tours? Is it that the majority thinks he's not brave enough on his bicycle for their taste or does it have more to do with his lookism/physical appearance and/or the fact he is Colombian?

Thanks for the information.

I know the way he rides is not very likeable among fans. But, some of that is on him but the rest is just plain crab.

To the bolded. Some of the comments you hear are border line racist. They are using facts that are technically true about Quintana and converting the narrative into unreal stuff about Colombians and particularly him.

 

[DanielSong39]

At the end of the day there is only one way Quintana can answer his critics - win a Tour de France. That will give him entry into the category of Contador/Froome/Nibali, unquestioned all-time greats.

 

[carton]

Re:

At the end of the day there is only one way Quintana can answer his critics - win a Tour de France. That will give him entry into the category of Contador/Froome/Nibali, unquestioned all-time greats.

Nah, that, if it ever happens, won't do the trick. Believe you me. He attacked until he cracked up LPSM, Ventoux, Oropa, etc. That only got "weak", "moronic" and "unprepared" mixed in with the other insults. He actually wins a Tour and the discussion will move elsewhere.

On the other stuff, I try not ascribe to ill-will what is best explained by ignorance or even simple misinterpretation. (And I, maybe naively, don't think it's mostly racism. Have a peek at the Tejay thread.) That does feel like firing bullets at a hill at times. Not the most productive of undertakings. At best, it only serves to let out your own frustration.

 

[Climbing]

Re: Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Look at the flicka da elbow

If Quintana worked a bit harder/earlier in the last couple of stage where he and Nibali distanced Tom BG, we would be probably talking about the double (or Nibali back to back Giros).

I guess he was worried about a Nibali counter, but conservative racing didn't work out well in the end.
Of course the Giro mountain stages design and 70 km didn't really help.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

And without the incident he wouldn't even be close to winning. It was just clearly not a 100% Quintana. He thought he could win at 90%, and he could've without Dumoulin. It's just unexpected, not even Dumoulin himself expected this.

So that brings us back, can you do the double? I think you can, but you have to be very lucky with the field (in both races)

 

[hrotha]

Even if not at 100%, Quintana was still the strongest climber with the strongest team. Of course he could have tried more than what he did.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Even with the Giro in line, he was still flicking elbows, not doing proper pulls and asking for others to basically tow him, not to mention his pathetic riding on the other mountain stages in the 3rd week, especially the stage to Bormio.

 

[yaco]

Quintana attacked more times than you'll ever see him in the TDF - Simple not good enough.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Needless to say, I'm with Netserk.
Lol

Even with the Giro in line, he was still flicking elbows, not doing proper pulls and asking for others to basically tow him, not to mention his pathetic riding on the other mountain stages in the 3rd week, especially the stage to Bormio.

Lol, this is so much over the top. I cannot take this serious anymore