National Football League

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Elimination: SEA. I gues you guys waited too long for my next crazy pick. So here it is. Yes I chose them earlier than the NYG... b/c you never know when and if they hit another luck streak... The combination of the SL Cardinals & LA Kings... The perfect streak beast. And also, a more boring b/c expected pick; BUF.

Not so sure loser/survival anymore: SL (Wouldn´t it be awesome to lose twice with the Seahawks? Main reason i picked this game. I have a gut feeling Seahawks will drop this one too. )

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Okay everyone, here is where we stand on Elimination Football.®. I could definitely be wrong, so please correct me if you know.

Thanks for updating...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Freudian slip there?

Ahhhh, you caught that. Freud had nothing to do with it.

Explanation please. My english understanding of hidden grammar details is not enough... Thanks.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

How you explain a game without seing a second of this games footage? A game where no turnovers happened, you out-gained the opponent by 100 yards (!), and still managed to lose the game?
One coach plays to win, the other to save his a$$... Happy early field goal kicking on the road vs a highly favoured division rival. What a phucking coward. Hope he gets fired soon. Those butter ball Ryans are just tiresome. All of them...

 

[ToreBear]

OFC he can be. All he has to do is losing some more playoff games single-handedly... he is on a good way.

Good one! I did'nt see that one comming.

Explanation please. My english understanding of hidden grammar details is not enough... Thanks.

He called the new coach Tony Soprano instead of Tony Sparano.

Tony Soprano is a mafia boss in a US TV series. Never watched it myself but it's very popular in Norway at least.

How you explain a game without seing a second of this games footage? A game where no turnovers happened, you out-gained the opponent by 100 yards (!), and still managed to lose the game?
One coach plays to win, the other to save his a$$... Happy early field goal kicking on the road vs a highly favoured division rival. What a phucking coward. Hope he gets fired soon. Those butter ball Ryans are just tiresome. All of them...

Basically the Jets stink in the red zone and had to settle for field goals. Gino played very well, but doesn't have many good receiving options.

The Jets focused on running and control of time of possession which worked well to move the ball until they came down to the end zone when the defenders had to cover less area.

The Pats punted several times, but also got some big plays that went for TDs.

The game ended with the Jets able to win it with a 58y field goal. It was blocked.

Had Gino taken more risk they might have been able to win. But Revis was there, so it could also have been intercepted.

I think the jets played to their strength and kept the game close and exciting the whole game. The looked good and might get some wins now that their schedule becomes a little easier.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Good one! I did'nt see that one comming.

Yeah... Had the feeling it´s an instant classic. Good enough for being my signature if this wasn´t a cycling site.

He called the new coach Tony Soprano instead of Tony Sparano.

Ha... LOL... It was not hidden grammar, but a typo. Imagine, didn´t see it in first place.

Basically the Jets stink in the red zone and had to settle for field goals. Gino played very well, but doesn't have many good receiving options.

The Jets focused on running and control of time of possession which worked well to move the ball until they came down to the end zone when the defenders had to cover less area.

The Pats punted several times, but also got some big plays that went for TDs.

The game ended with the Jets able to win it with a 58y field goal. It was blocked.

Had Gino taken more risk they might have been able to win. But Revis was there, so it could also have been intercepted.

I think the jets played to their strength and kept the game close and exciting the whole game. The looked good and might get some wins now that their schedule becomes a little easier.

Yop, the NYJ have receiver issues. That comes when the defense minded butter ball Ryans coach. They are too obsessed with recruiting defense players... Buddy and his sons are defense nerds. But that doesn´t qualify them as coaches of a whole team. Fat Buddy never understood you can´t win 0-0 games (not mine, but a original quote from Burt Grossman). His also fat sons don´t either.

Besides all that, every team, more or less, "stinks" in the red zone on short field. But some coaches risk, try to convert 4th downs or at least play agressive football, actually trying to win games... But this loser Ryan with his 40 mins ball control and "run until the opponent drops"approach is what? 1-5? And what does he do, instead of trying to at least win some football games? Letting the leg swinger take the field when the going gets tough. Can´t stand those cowards (Reid comes to mind too, The Smurf in any case, and then some more)... I mean they coach NFL teams. They watch game film 24/7 to gain a 1% advantage... and then leave points on the field early, that are needed in the end. What brain farts. Just anoying. If you get paid millions, better do the best job possible like Belichick and Kelly do for example.
All they have to do is calling plays for max value, and put a system into play that fits with the players. That is all. No more, no less... "Coaching" in is truest sense isn´t needed. They inherit full trained, full skilled world class athlets (once they sign NFL coaching contracts). Thus they can´t improve the technique/skills of this players that much so that it would change outcomes of games (unless they use dirty tricks others don´t OFC).

Fire Ryan and all those other cowards, but bring the best possible personal into jobs. NFL fans pay high prices for it! They have the phucking right to see the best product possible!

 

[ToreBear]

Well I can't blame them for being careful. They follow a way of doing things that balances risk reward as they see it. Also, the media seems to be less sensitive to a 2 point loss in the last second of a game than to a 14 point loss due to gambles leading to interceptions.

Also in this case, I thought Geno deserved a break from being the scapegoat.

Besides, maybe a close loss is better for the morale of the players down the road leading to an increased likelihood of winning.

Whether a gamble is the best solution is to complex for me to judge. I've only been following this game for a little over a year.

Edit: Come to think of it, I don't think the Jets have been able to dominate the TOP. I think in fact they have only won the TOP against the Raiders. They have lost TOP in the games they lost as well.
I checked the gamebooks for the games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_New_York_Jets_season#Regular_season_results

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well I can't blame them for being careful. They follow a way of doing things that balances risk reward as they see it. Also, the media seems to be less sensitive to a 2 point loss in the last second of a game than to a 14 point loss due to gambles leading to interceptions.

Also in this case, I thought Geno deserved a break from being the scapegoat.

Besides, maybe a close loss is better for the morale of the players down the road leading to an increased likelihood of winning.

Whether a gamble is the best solution is to complex for me to judge. I've only been following this game for a little over a year.

Careful is something else. Players risk CEI each play they are in. Carefullness and NFL football just don´t match on the field.

The only one for whom it´s danger (to go for it on 4th downs) is the coward/afraid fat HC that cares for his future contracts only...

It´s about EV. And that´s going to be better if you go for it instead of kicking FGs (which BTW are not a gimme like coaches think once they reach the 30yL).

In the NFL a 14 point loss is the same as a 2 point loss. Point differential is nothing to worry about as tie breraker like in soccer...

If you are a big underdog (like the NYJ were yesterday) high variance play calls/game plans increase winning chances... For more detail go to Brian Burks site.

You think a sure (close) loss and 1-6 record is better for team morale then a HC who trusts his players to gain yards in 4th downs, and gives them a better chance to win? I guess you, some 70s pundits & those coward coaches are pretty much the only ones with that idea. At least can´t blame you, since you´re just in your 2nd season, but those fat coaches who didn´t make it as players (b/c lacking the talent/skill) are there since decades...

Most players appreciated it when coaches trusted them & let them play out 4th downs.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Actually, the Jets had two chances to put the game away they couldn't convert. First was the failed 2 point conversion. Geno had another receiver who was about to be open (Decker I think), and overthrew Amaro, who was about to be open. I, along with a lot of people, I think were surprised the Jets didn't try to sneak a run in with CJ or Ivory, who had been running very well at that point. The second was the last second missed FG that was blocked. It was very long, at 58 yards, but the Jets were too hasty.

Of note, there's some conspiracy theories now about how the back judge nudged Patriots LB Dont'a Hightower, so he wouldn't be lining up in a potentially illegal manner if he jumped over the center, thus giving the game to the Patriots. But a quick search by some pundits has found that referees do this all the time, many, many times. Just as they often point or yell at WR's to line up on the line of scrimmage if they are off it. It's very common and part of the game. Even if the ref had done nothing, there's still no guarantee that Hightower was going to commit a penalty.

Geno Smith is tough to watch. He makes some great moves, some good throws, and then some bad throws. The entire offense can make good plays, then be out of synch on the next. I think the Jets may have overpaid for Decker, and definitely need better receivers for him, and I wouldn't write him off just yet.

Ha... LOL... It was not hidden grammar, but a typo. Imagine, didn´t see it in first place.

Uh, no, It was definitely by design.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Actually I like that the refs give "hints" to players... Imagine they wouldn´t. They´d have to flag players a hundred times per game. I mean not all of them studied at Harvard like Fitzpatrick... Studying the playbook & run fast forward is enough task for some of them. That some of them are not the brightest you can imagine when multi millionares like Young and Stubblefield go bankrupt in like a second, or simply become killers like Hernandez.

The Jets have to blame their HC. No one else. One that is unable to coach his team with a 100 yard advantage while not giving up turnovers or long returns to a safe win simply don´t belong to be a NFL headcoach... I mean not to win such a game with ease is right up there in the Norv-the-Smurf anti-coaching-scale.

 

[ToreBear]

Careful is something else. Players risk CEI each play they are in. Carefullness and NFL football just don´t match on the field.

The only one for whom it´s danger (to go for it on 4th downs) is the coward/afraid fat HC that cares for his future contracts only...

It´s about EV. And that´s going to be better if you go for it instead of kicking FGs (which BTW are not a gimme like coaches think once they reach the 30yL).

In the NFL a 14 point loss is the same as a 2 point loss. Point differential is nothing to worry about as tie breraker like in soccer...

If you are a big underdog (like the NYJ were yesterday) high variance play calls/game plans increase winning chances... For more detail go to Brian Burks site.

You think a sure (close) loss and 1-6 record is better for team morale then a HC who trusts his players to gain yards in 4th downs, and gives them a better chance to win? I guess you, some 70s pundits & those coward coaches are pretty much the only ones with that idea. At least can´t blame you, since you´re just in your 2nd season, but those fat coaches who didn´t make it as players (b/c lacking the talent/skill) are there since decades...

Most players appreciated it when coaches trusted them & let them play out 4th downs.

EV is that expected wins or something?


I can't remember any 4th and 1s that should have been tried. As far as I understand the game I think the jets played smartly.

It's one thing to trust players, but if they fail to get the down, you trusting them might not mean much compared to the zero on the scoreboard.

I don't know whats best. I'm still a sophomore.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

EV is that expected wins or something?


I can't remember any 4th and 1s that should have been tried. As far as I understand the game I think the jets played smartly.

It's one thing to trust players, but if they fail to get the down, you trusting them might not mean much compared to the zero on the scoreboard.

I don't know whats best. I'm still a sophomore.

I used EV (expected value) from the "poker slang". But anything else goes that describe rewards/risks.

Again: A 0-14 score is the same "worth" as a 25-27. It changes nothing. It´s still a loss in a very short 16-game season where every W counts tremendously much.

Coaches who trust their players, who may fail in this or that 4th down, certainly get the rewards later if not instantly. Even defense players welcome 4th down tries. They feel "pumped" up given the task to defend a short(er) field when their offense didn´t convert. It´s all up in the interviews they gave now and then. I trust talented players more than fat coaches whose only concern is their personal gain/face saving. The thinking goes (as Easterbrook once described): If the players lose a close game the blame can be shifted to them (or the refs, luck, weather, whatever). But if risky 4th down conversations fail, normally the HC gets the blame... Cowards!

There is no law in football that says you can only try to convert 4th-and-1s...

As Alpe most recently and countless serious studies showed: Going for it, up to 4th-and-10+, gives you higher rewards than kicking/punting. Now I don´t ask coaches to go for it every time (especially not if you are in a comfortable lead in the 2nd half), but kicking 4 straight FGs going up against the heavily favoured Patriots won´t save your day. Norv tried that trick once in the playoffs. Ryans blunders come close to that recreancy for the "enemy". People who act like this are normally yes-men to them ranking above, and little dictators to those below them. I only feel disgust for such people. Fat Ryan made his way up to the my personal $hit-list right up to the class of a$$holes like Horner and Norv...

 

[ToreBear]

I used EV (expected value) from the "poker slang". But anything else goes that describe rewards/risks.

Again: A 0-14 score is the same "worth" as a 25-27. It changes nothing. It´s still a loss in a very short 16-game season where every W counts tremendously much.

Coaches who trust their players, who may fail in this or that 4th down, certainly get the rewards later if not instantly. Even defense players welcome 4th down tries. They feel "pumped" up given the task to defend a short(er) field when their offense didn´t convert. It´s all up in the interviews they gave now and then. I trust talented players more than fat coaches whose only concern is their personal gain/face saving. The thinking goes (as Easterbrook once described): If the players lose a close game the blame can be shifted to them (or the refs, luck, weather, whatever). But if risky 4th down conversations fail, normally the HC gets the blame... Cowards!

There is no law in football that says you can only try to convert 4th-and-1s...

As Alpe most recently and countless serious studies showed: Going for it, up to 4th-and-10+, gives you higher rewards than kicking/punting. Now I don´t ask coaches to go for it every time (especially not if you are in a comfortable lead in the 2nd half), but kicking 4 straight FGs going up against the heavily favoured Patriots won´t save your day. Norv tried that trick once in the playoffs. Ryans blunders come close to that recreancy for the "enemy". People who act like this are normally yes-men to them ranking above, and little dictators to those below them. I only feel disgust for such people. Fat Ryan made his way up to the my personal $hit-list right up to the class of a$$holes like Horner and Norv...

Interesting. Ive thought about this when you are lets say 4th and 5 at the en zone. If you go for it and loose, its not easy for the offense to take over the ball that far back.

I don't take the coaches lack of bravery as a personal insult like you do. I guess I'll need to watch it a little longer.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I guess I'll need to watch it a little longer.

Most likely.
I only became harsh about them all when they started to get über-greedy. If you earn millions, you shall be a million times better than, lets say, the HS coach around the corner... OFC they are not, since it´s impossible. But then, the least you can ask them to do is to try for perfection. Kelly and Belichick do, the cowards not...

IIRC Lombardi once said something like this "Your QB can´t win games alone, but lose them". Same goes for HCs. They all depend on the talent of their players and the right bounces to prevail... but with idiotic calls, cowardness, and systems that don´t fit with the players they can lose games and seasons... Sorry to repeat (I know it´s tiring), but Norv the Smurf is the king of them all. He inherited the most talented NFL roster, and those players were still young, yet he lost games after games for the Chargers year in year out single-handedly and, no joke here, got rewarded with millions of dollars, because the GM of that club was even dumber. All beyond me how such things can happen at the (should be) highest level...

He once fielded the best pass O and D in the same year. Yet he didn´t make the playoffs. Unseen before, and may never happen again. Grotesque.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Actually I like that the refs give "hints" to players... Imagine they wouldn´t. They´d have to flag players a hundred times per game.

Agree completely.

As Alpe most recently and countless serious studies showed: Going for it, up to 4th-and-10+, gives you higher rewards than kicking/punting. Now I don´t ask coaches to go for it every time.

I'll look for links later, but the study done by a group at either Stanford or MIT determined that if a team went for it on 4th down, every single time, including 4th and long, 4th and deep in your own territory, you'd have a greater chance of winning the game overall. A huge factor was the net yard gain in punting the ball.

The studies also showed the comparative risk of going for it at different parts of the field. It was a surprisingly high percentage of success (not just on the play but overall reciprocal success), going for it on 4th and less than 10 across most parts of the field. Even a conservative coach would find more success going for it on every 4th down with less than 5 yards to go, between the 30 yard lines (punt in your side of the 30, FG other side).

I'm really surprised that a coach like Chip Kelly hasn't adopted this, especially with his high powered offense and speed play.

I also expect at some point we'll see a variant of the A-11 (or A-9, or Elmore & Henry, super spread air raid) offense. Kelly has already had the Eagles line-up in such a formation. But I only saw it once. For those geeky enough to care (or don't want to search) the offense lines up with a center, two tackles, a QB, and everyone else is a receiver or RB. Nearly every play is a very fast slant or timing pass with the QB taking maybe 2 steps back, and throwing it. With the occasional bomb, draw or quick trap, to keep the defense honest.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Sounds good. I certainly would like it. I guess NFL coaches didn´t adopt it yet, because they have to play with two more players who can´t line up as receiver/ball carrier. May they would use fast but "under-weight" guards who can cover a good width of the line... Would be interesting to see. A whole new OL concept. A whole new meaning of spreading a offense.

So you would have the Ts taking the spot of the Gs, playing next to the center (still being big and mean). The new guards taking the spot of the Ts, spreading out wide(r), and far outside two WRs, the other five players (+ QB) mixing up the backfield in all kinds of formations... Wow, headaches for years to come for DCs.

 

[Oldman]

Elimination: SEA. I gues you guys waited too long for my next crazy pick. So here it is. Yes I chose them earlier than the NYG... b/c you never know when and if they hit another luck streak... The combination of the SL Cardinals & LA Kings... The perfect streak beast. And also, a more boring b/c expected pick; BUF.

Not so sure loser/survival anymore: SL (Wouldn´t it be awesome to lose twice with the Seahawks? Main reason i picked this game. I have a gut feeling Seahawks will drop this one too. )

Your relentless denigration of the Seahawks should hit a fever right about now...they traded Percy Harvin to the Jets.
Made some cap room and shed what was rumored to be a source of discontent among the receivers. Notice most didn't press their routes hard after contact by the Cowboys?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Your relentless denigration of the Seahawks should hit a fever right about now...they traded Percy Harvin to the Jets.
Made some cap room and shed what was rumored to be a source of discontent among the receivers. Notice most didn't press their routes hard after contact by the Cowboys?

TBH, I'm not surprised and I'm not sad. Now they can move forward. Not surprised b/c they were obviously refraining from having Harvin run certain routes that can be detrimental to the health of a WR, like middle routes, and that was odd. My gut tells me the idea of not having Harvin run those types of routes when he is healthy did not start with the coaches. That smells like discord between coach and player. Take Baldwin in contrast. He runs all the routes, runs them hard, and plays with heart and attitude. That's my kind of guy. I'll take a roster full of players with Baldwin's character over another roster full of that other type, any day.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Your relentless denigration of the Seahawks should hit a fever right about now...they traded Percy Harvin to the Jets.
Made some cap room and shed what was rumored to be a source of discontent among the receivers. Notice most didn't press their routes hard after contact by the Cowboys?

Now I rant about two teams most recently (I safe PM for the playoffs I guess ), and both made a inter-trade that hurts one team just a little bit more than already, while the other is hapless no matter what, standing at 1-6... Couldn´t have gone any better. SEAs (next to last) coffin nail... Wave good bye. Ciao
The cap belongs to Wilson, right? Shall he find joy in his new mansions, with his new Ferraris, and expensive beauties he´ll ... well... bang (sorry, but didn´t found another word to describe. Hope I don´t offend anybody here. Apologize upfront if so)... on football fields he won´t find that joy in the near and farther future.

 

[Oldman]

Now I rant about two teams most recently (I safe PM for the playoffs I guess ), and both made a inter-trade that hurts one team just a little bit more than already, while the other is hapless no matter what, standing at 1-6... Couldn´t have gone any better. SEAs (next to last) coffin nail... Wave good bye. Ciao
The cap belongs to Wilson, right? Shall he find joy in his new mansions, with his new Ferraris, and expensive beauties he´ll ... well... bang (sorry, but didn´t found another word to describe. Hope I don´t offend anybody here. Apologize upfront if so)... on football fields he won´t find that joy in the near and farther future.

Bitterness runs deep within you, my friend. It is just football.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Bitterness runs deep within you, my friend. It is just football.

I have to be bitter. Am a clinic regular... Would be great if it was just football. Too bad it became just business...
The game invented by Walter Camp is the greatest on earth. Would be awesome to forget about all the evil stuff around it (yes greed is evil, even if Douglas/Gekko told us otherwise). But I simply can´t...

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Foxxy, you know I like you, right? Even if you are a statsoholic. But you read way too much S: into one game (SEA loss to DAL) and one trade. Only two losses and lots of season remains. Also lots of injuries to cope with, which truly has me concerned. But waaaaaay too early to write them off. Just sayin'

 

[The Hitch]

Actually, the Jets had two chances to put the game away they couldn't convert. First was the failed 2 point conversion. Geno had another receiver who was about to be open (Decker I think), and overthrew Amaro, who was about to be open. I, along with a lot of people, I think were surprised the Jets didn't try to sneak a run in with CJ or Ivory, who had been running very well at that point. The second was the last second missed FG that was blocked. It was very long, at 58 yards, but the Jets were too hasty.

Well the failed 2 pointer would only have tied the game with 2 mins left for Brady to get in field goal range. And while pats had loads of 3 and outs eveytime they managed to get a first down they then waltzed down the field, including already one such successful 2 minute drive at the end of the first half. It also seemed like pats got it together everytime they needed to in the game including both times the jets threatened their lead, at the beginning of the game and at the end of the half. I don't think that was a coincidence but that pats went into harder when they needed to..

So I think a successful 2 pointer would have done little for the jets. Pats had too much time, too much firepower abd only needed a fg.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Seattle Times reported this about Harvin (LINK): "in Sunday’s 30-23 loss to Dallas when Harvin apparently balked at going back into the game in the fourth quarter. Harvin played 26 of 48 official snaps but did not play 11 of the final 17. He finished with six touches for minus-1 yard."
There is more to it than that quote, but it says enough.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

TBH, I'm not surprised and I'm not sad. Now they can move forward.

I was thinking the same thing when I heard about trade. Recall that Harvin had locker room issues in Minnesota as well. After Doug Baldin's comments, my guess is that there has been friction between Harvin and the other receivers and maybe even Wilson and Carroll. You add in his large contract, pension to get hurt, and he was trade bait.

There are two other things at play here though. First is that it's a real risk. I know Seattle wants to mix some young guys, but none of them are Harvin, they don't have his talent. So this could be an issue of Pete Carroll buying too much into his own system, thinking he's swapped players before, and Harvin's just another pawn on the chessboard. That could be a mistake.

Next, I would have thought the Seahawks could have gotten more in return than a (likely) 2nd round pick. Granted, Seattle thrives on picks in these rounds. But they gave up 3 to get Harvin, so even unloading his contract has to be considered a net loss in some ways. Though he did help them win a SB, so some may consider it a net gain already.