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New York Times Julie Macur doesn't seem like a fangirl to me

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Jul 13, 2010
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mastersracer said:
Maybe the debate can do without the sophomoric Randian analysis. Why do you all feel Coggan is somehow duty-bound to have ANY beliefs about Armstrong, or even doping in professional cycling in general? The fact that you all seem so obsessed that he doesn't care about that issue seems awfully puerile.

Exactly right. +1
 
Jul 9, 2010
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Polish said:
Many casual fans of cycling are not familiar with pro cycling's rich doping history This article helps nudge the casual fan towards the realization that "everyone is doing it".

How long until we see articles showing young Lance corrupted by a nasty nasty sport?

Hey, maybe Lance can write a book about that.

Or maybe LA can blame it on Verbruggen like flandis does...
 
Jun 18, 2009
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mastersracer said:
Maybe the debate can do without the sophomoric Randian analysis. Why do you all feel Coggan is somehow duty-bound to have ANY beliefs about Armstrong, or even doping in professional cycling in general? The fact that you all seem so obsessed that he doesn't care about that issue seems awfully puerile.

I certainly think he's under no obligation to make his thoughts known since they're "thoughts" which will be construed by others as "facts".

However, given Dr. Coggan's interest in cycling, physiology, power output of elite cyclists and human performance in general, all of which he's freely expressed on the internet, it seems really unlikely to me that he's given the question absolutely no consideration. It just seems like a disingenuous comment to me.

He's certainly free to say he has absolutely no opinion, and I'm free to roll my eyes when I read those words.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
given Dr. Coggan's interest in cycling, physiology, power output of elite cyclists and human performance in general, all of which he's freely expressed on the internet, it seems really unlikely to me that he's given the question (of Armstrong's guilt/innocence: ARC) absolutely no consideration. It just seems like a disingenuous comment to me.

Obviously you don't know me very well.

(BTW, I never said that I have not given the question any consideration - only that I am agnostic on the issue.)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Realist said:
Exactly right. +1

Now, now, now - cut Parrot 23, lean, mean, and green, buckwheat, Kreb's cycle, workingclasshero, Tim_sleepless, et al. some slack. Clearly, they are on the side of righteousness here. In fact, I think it was Kreb's cycle himself who pointed out this very fact. That gives them the right to engage in sophomoric Randian analyses, call people "STUPID", etc., in much the same way that the war on terror gave the Bush administration the right to engage in torture.

(With tongue firmly planted in cheek...)
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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acoggan said:
Doping is rampant in sports, period. As a parent, though, I am far more concerned about that taking place at the high school and often even junior high school level than what takes place in professional cycling.

As a parent also, I agree with you 110%.

Doping does not belong in High School or Junior High!!
Same goes for Michelob Ultra.

I tell my kid she can choose to drink (or not) when she is 21.
And she can choose to Dope (or not) if she ever turns Pro.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Polish said:
As a parent also, I agree with you 110%.

Doping does not belong in High School or Junior High!!
Same goes for Michelob Ultra.

I tell my kid she can choose to drink (or not) when she is 21.
And she can choose to Dope (or not) if she ever turns Pro.

Yes, yes yes. When I was researching my soon to be released novel "Cast the First Stone", I was watching a junior race in an unnamed city, and one fellow who must have been 15 or 16 was getting a pep talk from Dear Old Dad. Then the kid lined up and was not really enjoying the anticipated start like the rest of the group, but he was just so focused. Dad cheered him on from the side. I commented on how determined the kid was and how wonderful it was for Dad to be right there for him. Dad started in about how Junior wins everything. I stated a little amazement at that and asked if he had a really good coach, or what was the program. Dad sneered at me saying "I'm a doctor, I know what he needs to win." I never followed up on what he meant.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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acoggan said:
Obviously you don't know me very well.

(BTW, I never said that I have not given the question any consideration - only that I am agnostic on the issue.)

I only know you from your various writings on the internet, mostly google wattage). You've commented plenty on those subjects (the least being men's pro cycling), and written about most of them professionally with your book, so I assumed you had an interest in them. Was I wrong?

While ultimately I agree with you that the WMD question is far more important than whether or not Lance was juiced, it seems an interesting parallel to me. Asking someone if they have an opinion on either question is going to draw a definitive response from most people with even a passing interest. That's why it's so surprising for me to hear that you have know opinion.

I'm certainly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't formed a concrete opinion, but when you have a relationship with Coyle, and given the Armstrong/Coyle paper, you can then see how people would view your comments with skepticism.

I know you simply dismiss that as "crazy conspiracy theories", but as a friend of mine who worked in the intelligence business used to say, "even paranoid people have enemies"....
 
acoggan said:
That may be your position, but it isn't mine. I just realize that the best approach to keeping my kids away from drugs is to focus my energies locally.

(BTW, according to surveys body image/appearance, not performance, is often the most important factor driving use of, e.g., anabolic steroids...and I don't know of many pre-teens/teenagers who would admit to wanting to look like a pro cyclist.)

body image? drug abuse?

the behavior being modeled by successful professional athletes onto your impressionable teen is deceipt leading to financial reward. it is more a matter of ethics than drug abuse. it concerns me that as a society we may be permissive of this. i'd like to know as much as i can in order to formulate an informed opinion because it is socially responsible. this is especially important because of my career in a health science related field (much like you) and status within my community which we'll soon discuss a little bit.

off topic: i make my living as a health educator and coach of high school students. your comments on teens and body image are naive. why do males (you've completely left out females with very different concerns) associate muscle hypertrophy with success? attractiveness maybe? images of professional athletes and their rich rewards contribute right back into body image. hard to describe those statements as anything other than stupid.

let me guess, you only have sons so you don't need to worry about the concerns of adolescent females. ;-)

BTW i'm done discussing this. most have completely formed their opinion about the topics in this thread.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
I only know you from your various writings on the internet, mostly google wattage). You've commented plenty on those subjects (the least being men's pro cycling),

Remember what I said about not paying much attention to professional cycling, especially on the men's road side of things?

131313 said:
and written about most of them professionally with your book, so I assumed you had an interest in them. Was I wrong?

Where you are wrong is in assuming that this automatically means that I am interested in the actions of specific, individual cyclists. In that regard, the only individuals about whom I've given much thought as to whether they have engaged in doping or not are those who have provided the data that forms the top anchor of the power profiling tables.

131313 said:
While ultimately I agree with you that the WMD question is far more important than whether or not Lance was juiced, it seems an interesting parallel to me. Asking someone if they have an opinion on either question is going to draw a definitive response from most people with even a passing interest. That's why it's so surprising for me to hear that you have know opinion.

I'm certainly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't formed a concrete opinion, but when you have a relationship with Coyle, and given the Armstrong/Coyle paper, you can then see how people would view your comments with skepticism.


Only if they are ignorant of the true facts, e.g., the fact that I finished up my PhD under Ed and left Austin almost a quarter-century ago, or the fact that he (Ed) first presented his data on Armstrong 2 y before, e.g., the SCA lawsuit was even filed, or Walsh's first book appeared (I had to go look up the exact timeline on Wikipedia, that is how little attention I have paid to such matters).
 
Mar 18, 2009
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lean said:
body image?

the behavior being modeled by successful professional athletes onto your impressionable teen is deceipt leading to financial reward. it is more a matter of ethics than drug abuse. it concerns me that as a society we may be permissive of this. i'd like to know as much as i can in order to formulate an informed opinion because it is socially responsible. this is especially important because of my career in a health science related field (much like you) and status within my community which we'll soon discuss a little bit.

off topic: i make my living as a health educator and coach of high school students. your comments on teens and body image are naive. why do males (you've completely left out females with very different concerns) associate muscle hypertrophy with success? attractiveness maybe? images of professional athletes and their success contribute right back into body image. hard to describe those statements as anything other than stupid.

let me guess, you only have sons so you don't need to worry about the concerns of adolescent females. ;-)

If that is your profession then I strongly encourage you to do some research in this area. While success in sports is often a driving factor behind the use of drugs such as anabolic steroids by pre-teens/teenagers, so, too, is the desire to appear desirable to members of the opposite sex. Thus, there is an association between viewing oneself negatively from a body image perspective and the use of drugs that are at least believed to enhance one's appearance (e.g., build muscle in males, decrease body fat in females). It is therefore not just images of athletes that are of concern, but images of, e.g., movie stars, models, etc. In this context, the fact that nobody in their right mind would want the t-rex body of a professional cyclist is a bit of a saving grace. ;)
 
buckwheat said:
Nothing is certain.

Richard Feynman

Why on earth do you feel the need to drag a quantum mechanics physicist (plus Einstein in a recent post!) into a domain where that field is totally irrelevant is beyond me.

Are you trying to impress your fellow forumers? I don't believe it will work.

You should maybe concentrate on being rational and having well thought out arguments expressed in a clear and understanble fashion and I, for one, might pay more attention to what you have to say . Thank you.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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acoggan said:
In this context, the fact that nobody in their right mind would want the t-rex body of a professional cyclist is a bit of a saving grace. ;)

Please stop insulting me. I was just catcalled in Reno a few weeks ago by several young ladies.
 
acoggan said:
If that is your profession then I strongly encourage you to do some research in this area. While success in sports is often a driving factor behind the use of drugs such as anabolic steroids by pre-teens/teenagers, so, too, is the desire to appear desirable to members of the opposite sex. Thus, there is an association between viewing oneself negatively from a body image perspective and the use of drugs that are at least believed to enhance one's appearance (e.g., build muscle in males, decrease body fat in females). It is therefore not just images of athletes that are of concern, but images of, e.g., movie stars, models, etc. In this context, the fact that nobody in their right mind would want the t-rex body of a professional cyclist is a bit of a saving grace. ;)

did you seriously miss "attractiveness" as my explanation. reading comprehension AC, reading comprehension.

you've pointed NOTHING out that shows i need to do more research but....IMO you can never do too much.
 
131313 said:
Please stop insulting me. I was just catcalled in Reno a few weeks ago by several young ladies.

Come on, be honest now. It was Reno:

ladies_29425a_2.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2009
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lean said:
did you seriously miss "attractiveness" as my explanation. reading comprehension AC, reading comprehension.

You wrote "attractiveness maybe?", which implied to me that you did not immediately recognize the point I was making (which would presumably be obvious if you were entirely up-to-speed in this area).

Anyway, speaking of reading comprehension: in my first mention of this issue I did not say anything about the sex of the individuals to which this aspect can be important. Rather, you simply assumed that because I used anabolic steriods as an example (note the "e.g.,"), I was speaking of boys (despite the fact that girls will also abuse anabolic steroids, albeit not with the same frequency).
 
acoggan said:
You forgot to say in a huff "I've got better things to do, like go for a ride!" :p

ironically, i've already got my bib shorts on and passed by the laptop on the way out the door.

i haven't had a discussion will this level of sophistication in many years tho andy, remind me again how it works when you lose a point...which one of us is rubber and which one of us is glue in this scenario?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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lean said:
i haven't had a discussion will this level of sophistication in many years tho andy, remind me again how it works when you lose a point...which one of us is rubber and which one of us is glue in this scenario?

The one who stoops to calling the other one "STUPID", obviously.
 

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