Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[kingjr]

Re:

The Team Sprint is a stupid format, an awful type of race, offers little to no excitement

Whistler 2010, Val die Fiemme 2013, Sochi 2014, I thought all of those were very exciting, I'm sure I can find more. The Men's races that is.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

The Team Sprint is a stupid format, an awful type of race, offers little to no excitement

Whistler 2010, Val die Fiemme 2013, Sochi 2014, I thought all of those were very exciting, I'm sure I can find more. The Men's races that is.

I didn't see the Sochi one but I didn't care for the Val di Fiemme race at all. I really struggle to care about this format, it's not skiing as I know it or want to see it. Round and round we go on a boring short course, half of which is flat because of the stadium section, who cares about recovery and endurance, you get a break every three minutes. Usually the only teams removed by attrition are the ones who wouldn't have contended anyway.

In fact, come to think of it, the track cycling Team Sprint is an abomination too, it's just a leadout time trial, with none of the grace or fluidity of the team pursuit and none of the tactical acumen of the individual sprint. I think I can state with some confidence that to me, no sport has ever introduced an event called Team Sprint that deserves to exist and adds anything to the sport.

 

[MrRoboto]

I think they are quite exciting, like relays often are. The chaotic nature of the format really doesn't fit with skiing though.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Ustiugov, the man who strikes when the others fall.
Damn, that was a stupid move from Iversen. Ruined it for Niskanen too.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Damn, I hope that Norwegian guy gets banned for a few races. Finns surely would have won that. What a *** ***.
But as it's norway, nothing will happen, as always.

 

[python]

iversen, iversen, iversen ????? ustiougov a double world champion !

when ustiougov is breathing into your back it is hard not get nervous. btw, it was the 2nd fall for eversen in this team sprint. granted, this time HIS fault (fixed the irony)

 

[Gracey]

Ustiougov should buy himself a lottery ticket.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

iversen, iversen, iversen ????? ustiougov a double world champion !

when ustiougov is breathing into your back it is hard not get nervous. btw, it was the 2nd fall for eversen in this team sprint. granted, this time not his fault.

Yeah maybe I was a little too fast to delegate all the blame to Iversen, but I do think he mainly caused the crash. Even though Niskanen was very agressive choosing the inner line, it was Iversen who stepped on to Niskanen's skis.

 

[search]

Finns surely would have won that.

maybe. I think Ustiugov would have come close, that final sprint was massive

 

[python]

Re: Re:

iversen, iversen, iversen ????? ustiougov a double world champion !

when ustiougov is breathing into your back it is hard not get nervous. btw, it was the 2nd fall for eversen in this team sprint. granted, this time not his fault.

Yeah maybe I was a little too fast to delegate all the blame to Iversen, but I do think he mainly caused the crash. Even though Niskanen was very agressive choosing the inner line, it was Iversen who stepped on to Niskanen's skis.

it was iversen who flipped up. iwas being ironic to quickly fix it b/c i thought later some may missed it. iversen was making a step turn left and suddenly lost it perhaps due to nervousness and the closeness of the finn...that's sport and i feel indifferent about any norge misfortunes...

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

The Team Sprint is a stupid format, an awful type of race, offers little to no excitement

Whistler 2010, Val die Fiemme 2013, Sochi 2014, I thought all of those were very exciting, I'm sure I can find more. The Men's races that is.

I didn't see the Sochi one but I didn't care for the Val di Fiemme race at all. I really struggle to care about this format, it's not skiing as I know it or want to see it. Round and round we go on a boring short course, half of which is flat because of the stadium section, who cares about recovery and endurance, you get a break every three minutes.

I don't get that part. Recovery is everything in the team sprint, we just saw an excellent example of that. The comparison with the track cycling team sprint (which I don't really interesting either) doesn't work at all IMO.

 

[kingjr]

Anyway, Klaebo is quite the genius. He makes it look so easy and he's only 20.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you have an explanation for what exactly the feature of the Team Sprint is that is unique to the Team Sprint and explains its development and appeal, I'm all ears. I can't think of anything.

 

[kingjr]

It's a 3 minute effort, just like a normal sprint race, but with only a 3 minute break inbetween. So you might get excellent sprinters who fade badly on their 2nd or 3rd leg, and you can have diesel's (like Dotzler or Teichmann for Germany) who would never win anything in a normal sprint perform really strong in this particular event. Sometimes you see a team even using 2 non sprinters. It makes for a really interesting dynamic (look at Belorukova's last leg compared to Ingemarsdotter) Sure, if one team is much stronger than the rest, then you get a race like in Falun 2 years ago, but it's not the rule.

 

[meat puppet]

Not a fan of this team sprint discipline, but agree with kingjr's take on what is specific about it.

Part of the game these crashes, for better and worse i guess. No need for any extra drama here. Niskanen and Iversen stubbornly locked horns, gambled and fell.

Niskanen in good form clearly.

The 10k and 15k races will be interesting for sure.

 

[python]

apparently the jury was meeting for quite a while before the official places were confirmed.

i just saw the flower ceremony. the smiles of the finnish bronze medalists were somewhat dim...as was the smile of krioukov.

another observation was that ustiougov sort of got even with pelle for a lost finish in the individual sprint.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The problem is, we already have a race for three minute efforts. We have too many of them, in fact. If its sole real reason to be is to give athletes who aren't pure sprinters a chance to compete in an additional discipline, then why don't we have another distance discipline for them instead? I get what you're saying about the dynamic, I just don't find it as engrossing as others seem to, and feel it's a low prestige event, as is evidenced by some fairly mediocre lineups for it in non-Championships situations. And just as with the sprint, it really feels that there's so many events decided by crashes that it lends competition a very artificial feel and all too often - far more than in all distance events - luck plays a much higher role, particularly with the chaotic nature of the exchange. Even if you may contest my position that it's a pointless discipline that we'd be better without, would you contest the position that it's the least important and prestigious event in the XC program?

 

[Norbea]

Re: Re:

I think even most Norwegians feel sorry for Niskanen here. Stupid move by Iversen and shows that Norway chose the wrong tactics for this race. The weather conditions didn't´t favor Iversen having a lead. It should have been Klæbo on the last stage.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

I think even most Norwegians feel sorry for Niskanen here. Stupid move by Iversen and shows that Norway chose the wrong tactics for this race. The weather conditions didn't´t favor Iversen having a lead. It should have been Klæbo on the last stage.

i agree. here's an objective article with the video and good analysis from norway. even lofshus apologized.
https://www.nrk.no/sport/iversen-kalt-inn-til-juryen-etter-fallet
clearly, the iversen move was his mistake but it was unintentional. the logic of putting iversen last was probably to avoid the klaebo-ustiogov duel hoping that iversen was capable of holding out the klaebo-earned advantage hoped for (quite reasonably) before the last heat.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

agree with both meat and cance. we saw the same - a small gap was developing

Actually Cance never said anything about gap.

Isnt that just semantics, though?

It's not, see why.

If two skiers start from a leveled position, then over time one being faster than the other will result in a small gap developing. Or one pulling away from the other.

I will stress most important word which you've even written down" IF. You have one premise, that may or may not come true: you premise tha Sundby would have remained faster. But we don't know that, that's just guessing. Only thing we know for sure that Sundby was slightly faster for couple of seconds (where he had moment of surprise on his side at least athe the beginning) during which he gained no significant advantage, no gap. The rest is just guessing.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

The problem is, we already have a race for three minute efforts. We have too many of them, in fact. If its sole real reason to be is to give athletes who aren't pure sprinters a chance to compete in an additional discipline, then why don't we have another distance discipline for them instead? I get what you're saying about the dynamic, I just don't find it as engrossing as others seem to, and feel it's a low prestige event, as is evidenced by some fairly mediocre lineups for it in non-Championships situations. And just as with the sprint, it really feels that there's so many events decided by crashes that it lends competition a very artificial feel and all too often - far more than in all distance events - luck plays a much higher role, particularly with the chaotic nature of the exchange. Even if you may contest my position that it's a pointless discipline that we'd be better without, would you contest the position that it's the least important and prestigious event in the XC program?

Yes I would. In my opinion, the prestige of an event is mostly determined by the value the teams put on it. The German ladies didn't participate in the Skiathlon yesterday, focussing especially on this race today. Ustiugov is not going to run the 15k, mayyybe he will do the 50k, but he did take part today.
Now this is a World Championship, the race has less prestige in the World Cup and I wouldn't mind seeing less of it there.
Agreed about the crashes, it is a shame when it happens, but today it was just Iversen being a fool and being in denial about losing the gold. This could have happened in any rae almost. The Exchange is always a bit chaotic, but that's in the nature of a relay, and it usually gets better as the race progresses, cause the weaker teams get dropped.
Luck can also be a decisive factor in the distance races, Sapporo 2007 comes to mind, or the Biathlon sprint in Whistler 2010 and even if I very much liked the outcome of the first example, it's a bloody shame when it happens on occasions such as these.
Now, that was luck due to a change in conditions, you can also be lucky if you can run together with a teammate, which I think happened with Hjelmeset and Estil in Oslo 2007 (again with Angerer at the receiving end).
Nowadays there is a 1 minute gap between the strongest athletes at the start, but still, look at Sundby and Heikkinen a couple of days ago and tell me the Finn wasn't lucky that Sundby was on such a great day. I don't think he would've made 5th place otherwise. Also you get situations were one strong athlete who is on his 1st lap can join forces with another who is on his 2nd.
I don't want to go into a contest about in which discipline luck plays the most important role, but I want to pointout that it's not at all exclusive to Sprint races. At least everyone is skiing in the same conditions there.

I just don't find it as engrossing as others seem to

I understand that, it's all down to personal preference. Like in football, some people can't stand penalty shootouts, for me they are maybe the best part of the sport.

 

[Kokoso]

Don't wheter one one another is to blame here, I'd be very carefull. One thing seems sure to me - it wasn't only Iversen's fault. To me it looked more like Niskanen's fault, Iversen was in first position, Niskanen tried to squeeze where he knew Iversen will push off with his poles; just stupid move. Sure fact is that Niskanen tripped Iveresen's leg which was in the track, but that could be just result of what happened before.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

The Team Sprint is a stupid format, an awful type of race, offers little to no excitement

That's strictly individual, matter of taste. I like it more than individual sprint, on the other hand I'd better see distance race anyway.

and literally has no justifiable reason to exist.

there are no justifiable or unjustifiable reasons. In other words - it has as much "justifiable reason" to exist as any other format.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Yes I would. In my opinion, the prestige of an event is mostly determined by the value the teams put on it. The German ladies didn't participate in the Skiathlon yesterday, focussing especially on this race today. Ustiugov is not going to run the 15k, mayyybe he will do the 50k, but he did take part today.
Now this is a World Championship, the race has less prestige in the World Cup and I wouldn't mind seeing less of it there.
Agreed about the crashes, it is a shame when it happens, but today it was just Iversen being a fool and being in denial about losing the gold. This could have happened in any rae almost. The Exchange is always a bit chaotic, but that's in the nature of a relay, and it usually gets better as the race progresses, cause the weaker teams get dropped.

But is that because the German women feel the Team Sprint more prestigious, or simply because they haven't got a snowball's chance in hell at present of winning a medal in the skiathlon (maybe in a few years Carl can, but right now no) and the fact that there's always the crash-lottery chance of a medal in the sprint events (as others have said, Randall got a medal in the Individual sprint when without the Nilsson crash she wouldn't have had any business being anywhere near the final)? I don't see that was a case of the German team valuing the format higher than the skiathlon, but rather them valuing an outside chance of a medal over no chance of a medal.

Luck can also be a decisive factor in the distance races, Sapporo 2007 comes to mind, or the Biathlon sprint in Whistler 2010 and even if I very much liked the outcome of the first example, it's a bloody shame when it happens on occasions such as these.
Now, that was luck due to a change in conditions, you can also be lucky if you can run together with a teammate, which I think happened with Hjelmeset and Estil in Oslo 2007 (again with Angerer at the receiving end).
Nowadays there is a 1 minute gap between the strongest athletes at the start, but still, look at Sundby and Heikkinen a couple of days ago and tell me the Finn wasn't lucky that Sundby was on such a great day. I don't think he would've made 5th place otherwise. Also you get situations were one strong athlete who is on his 1st lap can join forces with another who is on his 2nd.
I don't want to go into a contest about in which discipline luck plays the most important role, but I want to pointout that it's not at all exclusive to Sprint races. At least everyone is skiing in the same conditions there.

I'd argue that with the case of the biathlon sprint (I assume you're referring to the men's one) then yes, that was a change of conditions race, but Vincent Jay specifically gambled on the change of conditions and chose to go in that pot for that very reason. I take your point that in some cases change of conditions luck (take Caitlin Gregg's bronze in Falun for example!) plays a part in distance races and start numbers do also play a role (compare Calle Halfvarsson's lonely, lonely race in Davos to Andrew Musgrave hitching a ride on first Gløersen, then Sundby, then Heikkinen) and this imbalances them in much the same way as the crashes do in the sprint events, but I think back to an event like the sprint in the Canadian mini-Tour last year where everybody was falling all over the place, or the Lahti sprint last year when Strandvall nearly instigated a brawl, and think, do we need that? At least nobody gets injured by a start number gamble.

In general I feel the sprint events to be a dumbing-down of the sport, as the FIS seems to be afraid of people being scared off by the complexity of individual start formats (which really aren't that complex) and the conservative racing style proliferating especially in men's distance races a few years ago. It's not just XC though, the IBU is going the same way, marginalizing the 15/20 Individual in favour of ever shorter races, culminating in their equivalent of the Team Sprint, the Single Mixed Relay, which is nothing more than a shooting competition and that none of the teams bar maybe the French seem to care about. The XC Individual sprint is made for TV, for sure, with a bit of guaranteed action every 3 minutes and a space for an ad break, but you can't stick an ad break into the Team Sprint without missing somebody's entire leg.

The chaos in the exchange, the crashes and the short ski loops with little chance of producing anything significant makes it feel to me like it's a crazy idea for a stadium show event that somehow managed to get greenlit for the World Cup. It's designed to produce action, but all of the action it produces just feels meaningless and artificial to me.

 

[Bavarianrider]

The Team sprint isn't the Problem. In fact, it's a great race to sell xc skiing to the casual Tv viewer.

The Problem is that the tarditional distance races got butchered. The skiathlon is usually totally awful and the 50k being a mass start is a travesty.

The Team sprint is just fine, it's the tarditional races that have to go back to the old Format.
Make the 50km an individual start again and ad a few 30km individual races during the season, That's all that is needed. And of course, Tour de Ski would Need to be re thoght, but that's a ´different Topic.