Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[MLKarlos]

Allan Peiper joins the team as Strategic Advisor to the Sports Department

Allan Peiper is making his comeback on the WorldTour stage: the experienced Australian takes on the role of Strategic Advisor within the Sports Department of Red Bull – BORA – hansgrohe.

www.redbullborahansgrohe.com

Seems like a great hire. Anyone who can say anything about it?

What I definately can say is, that RBH is building a massive management unit with plenty of people.

 

[Cycling111]

This inferiority complex (I would like to have another word but I can't find one better) about Pogacar is bliding people to the point they question how better Pogacar is due to equipment.
May I remind people, he won the TdF against Visma with zero relevant teammates?

They're not interested in remembering the 2020 Tour because it dismantles all their theories.

He won the Tour alone against a far superior team like Lotto-Jumbo. He didn't even have a Landa who finished fifth in the Tour.

It's also worth remembering that in 2023, until the accident, he was dominating the season, including resounding victories against Van der Poel at De Ronde and againts Vingegaard at Paris-Nice.
Using him as a reference for Remco in stage races is self-deception.

 

[Peyroteo94]

According to himself, one of his best watts, performances and he was beaten by the stronger guy. I know you like to find excuses for MVP when he loses to Pog but not in that edition. Pog's early attack, their big chase (MVP/WVA/Pog) behind a strong breakaway and the finale was awesome, superb intensity. Pog's 2023 Flandres was maybe better than 2025.

And WVA only won because Pogacar slowed down on Kwaremont (he couldn't drop MVP). If MVP wasn't there, Pogacar would drop WVA for sure. MVP had his best season in 2023 and we should not forget WVA was still in his peak. Now MVP is clearly better than WVA.
Moving on to not be off topic, Bora will have some problems in putting the right schedule to every star they have and for some reason, I believe Roglic will be sacrificed.

 

[Berniece]

According to himself, one of his best watts, performances and he was beaten by the stronger guy. I know you like to find excuses for MVP when he loses to Pog but not in that edition. Pog's early attack, their big chase (MVP/WVA/Pog) behind a strong breakaway and the finale was awesome, superb intensity. Pog's 2023 Flandres was maybe better than 2025.

Pogacar was the best rider during that race. I’m just saying that wasn’t peak MVDP. We got peak MVDP since summer 2023

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar was the best rider during that race. I’m just saying that wasn’t peak MVDP. We got peak MVDP since summer 2023

MVP was ridiculous in MSR 2023 and very strong in Roubaix 2023 as well. 2023 was his breakthrough. Anyway, my main point is that Pogacar's Flandres 2023 was his most impressive monument showing by then (even compared to monuments more suited to his abilities) and that his crash made 2023->2024 jump look bigger.

 

[Berniece]

MVP was ridiculous in MSR 2023 and very strong in Roubaix 2023 as well. 2023 was his breakthrough. Anyway, my main point is that Pogacar's Flandres 2023 was his most impressive monument showing by then (even compared to monuments more suited to his abilities) and that his crash made 2023->2024 jump look bigger.

That’s fine, we’ll agree to disagree. His results and the way he got those results are not comparable in my opinion. But like Peyrote already said, that’s not the topic of the thread

 

[AmRacer]

And WVA only won because Pogacar slowed down on Kwaremont (he couldn't drop MVP). If MVP wasn't there, Pogacar would drop WVA for sure. MVP had his best season in 2023 and we should not forget WVA was still in his peak. Now MVP is clearly better than WVA.
Moving on to not be off topic, Bora will have some problems in putting the right schedule to every star they have and for some reason, I believe Roglic will be sacrificed.

Rogla would be happy riding a warm up stage race, any random race, Suisse and Vuelta. Then retire.

 

[Berniece]

Using him as a reference for Remco in stage races is self-deception.

Who did this?

 

[Wyndbrook]

Seems like a great hire. Anyone who can say anything about it?

What I definately can say is, that RBH is building a massive management unit with plenty of people.

Sounds like it, and no other team is using a tunnel with resident bats for testing, so Poggi look out next year.

 

[Statze2]

The first team camp is done, december camp is close and one of the best parts of the season is around the corner - spring classics.

I´m really curious to find out how Bora will tackle the cobbled spring classics this year.
With the Lazkano case one of the riders who was brought in to have success in the cobbled classics is gone.

I think Bora will attack the classics as a grand tour. Bringing the major squad early together in a altitude camp do some preparation races and then attack the races.

Which pool of riders can be a part of the classics squad?

For me the obvious riders are (and they should stay together mid february until Roubaix):

- Pithie
- Meeus
- Vermeersch
- Tratnik
- van Dijcke Mick
- van Dijcke Tim

Which riders can be also part of the team?

- van Poppel
- Drizners
- Marit (if the rumours are true)
- Thornley

Which riders of the Development team can fill spots and ride smaller classics?

- Pajur
- Clemmensen
- Putz
- Donati

These are 10 World tour riders for 7 spots, but we have to have in mind that riders like Drizners are more likely to appear in races like Scheldeprijs or Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne and not in Tour of Flanders, Dwaars door Vlaanderen or Omloop.

Is there a rider who can win a big classic (Roubaix, Flanders)? to be honest this can only happen by accident. But Meeus, Pithie or Mick van Dijcke can score a top 5 in these races.
The best thing that could happen this year is to stand on a podium in one of the big races and be there deep in the final with more than one rider. This will strength the believe in being competitive in classics. The next important thing for me is to win a smaller or medium classic. Which one depends on the calender Bora is riding. But in the development of a rider like Pithie it would be huge to win a race in the spring.

 

[MLKarlos]

W

The first team camp is done, december camp is close and one of the best parts of the season is around the corner - spring classics.

I´m really curious to find out how Bora will tackle the cobbled spring classics this year.
With the Lazkano case one of the riders who was brought in to have success in the cobbled classics is gone.

I think Bora will attack the classics as a grand tour. Bringing the major squad early together in a altitude camp do some preparation races and then attack the races.

Which pool of riders can be a part of the classics squad?

For me the obvious riders are (and they should stay together mid february until Roubaix):

- Pithie
- Meeus
- Vermeersch
- Tratnik
- van Dijcke Mick
- van Dijcke Tim

Which riders can be also part of the team?

- van Poppel
- Drizners
- Marit (if the rumours are true)
- Thornley

Which riders of the Development team can fill spots and ride smaller classics?

- Pajur
- Clemmensen
- Putz
- Donati

These are 10 World tour riders for 7 spots, but we have to have in mind that riders like Drizners are more likely to appear in races like Scheldeprijs or Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne and not in Tour of Flanders, Dwaars door Vlaanderen or Omloop.

Is there a rider who can win a big classic (Roubaix, Flanders)? to be honest this can only happen by accident. But Meeus, Pithie or Mick van Dijcke can score a top 5 in these races.
The best thing that could happen this year is to stand on a podium in one of the big races and be there deep in the final with more than one rider. This will strength the believe in being competitive in classics. The next important thing for me is to win a smaller or medium classic. Which one depends on the calender Bora is riding. But in the development of a rider like Pithie it would be huge to win a race in the spring.

hat about Van Gils? Not for cobbles?

 

[Statze2]

W

hat about Van Gils? Not for cobbles?

No, he never paricipated in the big cobbled classics. For me no Reason to start now.
Let him Race san remo and then the ardenne races.

And i think van Gils has a lot room for leadership at strade bianchi, san remo and a small Stage Race as preparation.

 

[Oldman]

The argument was that on Galibier Remco climbed better than Vingegaard; so who got to the top of the hill first matters. If Remco could have held on, he would have.

Unless the finish line is at the top of the hill the climb is part of the course. Remco backing off and then regaining the front group is what a good racer and GT rider will do. Burning excess energy to maintain contact on a climb when your descending skills are predicably superior is smarter in the long run. Whether Remco was thinking this only he can say but he did catch on later. If an argument about a race course suggests primacy at the top of the hill at the expense of the actual finish order is more important then, I guess; we shouldn't call it a race course. We can call it an exhibition. Jonas won a pointless exhibition. Great.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Unless the finish line is at the top of the hill the climb is part of the course. Remco backing off and then regaining the front group is what a good racer and GT rider will do. Burning excess energy to maintain contact on a climb when your descending skills are predicably superior is smarter in the long run. Whether Remco was thinking this only he can say but he did catch on later. If an argument about a race course suggests primacy at the top of the hill at the expense of the actual finish order is more important then, I guess; we shouldn't call it a race course. We can call it an exhibition. Jonas won a pointless exhibition. Great.

I can’t decide if you’re arguing just to argue or if you’re being serious. This whole dumb discussion is around climbing skills and whether Remco has proven he can climb with or better than Vingegaard. Cookster stated that Remco gained time on Vingegaard on the Galibier and cited it as an example of a time that Remco proved he was as strong or stronger than Vingegaard on the climbs. I pointed out that he actually just proved he was stronger on the flat in a group than Vingegaard was solo on the flat, as that is how he gained time, not uphill.

Is your argument that because he and a large group caught Vingegaard before the end, it should be counted as evidence that Remco and, presumably, the entire group (Roglic, Ayuso, Carlos Rodriguez) are as strong or stronger at climbing than Vingegaard? Or are we just flapping in the wind here.

Regarding the bolded, are you suggesting Remco is a good descender so dropping back was smart because he knew he’d be able to catch Vingegaard on the other side? He finished the climb 24 seconds ahead of Roglic and Ayuso but then was caught on the other side during the descent. If you made a typo and meant the opposite of what you said, I agree: He wisely rode all out so he’d have a head start on the climb to his competitors for third (first and second being up the road out of his reach despite his clear efforts to stay with them). If he’d ridden with them, they’d have dropped him like a stone on the descent and he’d have lost time to the top 6 or so.

 

[houtdffan]

I can’t decide if you’re arguing just to argue or if you’re being serious. This whole dumb discussion is around climbing skills and whether Remco has proven he can climb with or better than Vingegaard. Cookster stated that Remco gained time on Vingegaard on the Galibier and cited it as an example of a time that Remco proved he was as strong or stronger than Vingegaard on the climbs. I pointed out that he actually just proved he was stronger on the flat in a group than Vingegaard was solo on the flat, as that is how he gained time, not uphill.

Is your argument that because he and a large group caught Vingegaard before the end, it should be counted as evidence that Remco and, presumably, the entire group (Roglic, Ayuso, Carlos Rodriguez) are as strong or stronger at climbing than Vingegaard? Or are we just flapping in the wind here.

Regarding the bolded, are you suggesting Remco is a good descender so dropping back was smart because he knew he’d be able to catch Vingegaard on the other side? He finished the climb 24 seconds ahead of Roglic and Ayuso but then was caught on the other side during the descent. If you made a typo and meant the opposite of what you said, I agree: He wisely rode all out so he’d have a head start on the climb to his competitors for third (first and second being up the road out of his reach despite his clear efforts to stay with them). If he’d ridden with them, they’d have dropped him like a stone on the descent and he’d have lost time to the top 6 or so.

Remco caught Vingo on the descent

That was a 17km descent with the line just 1-2 km after the descent. It wasn't the technical part, but they were still descending when caught

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Remco caught Vingo on the descent

That was a 17km descent with the line just 1-2 km after the descent. It wasn't the technical part, but they were still descending when caught

Ok my mistake. He dropped massively on the technical part then held his one once it became a power descent into a headwind. I don’t think that changes anything. I’ll let it go after this comment, since it’s a waste of time, but this stage should not be used as evidence that Remco can climb as well as Vingegaard. It’s beyond me how anyone could seriously argue otherwise. I’m not sitting here arguing that it shows Roglic can climb with Vingegaard (which I don’t generally think he can) or that he can climb generally better than Remco (which I verbally do think he can) because this stage is not evidence of that. Dude got dropped like a stone, even more than Remco.

 

[Oldman]

I can’t decide if you’re arguing just to argue or if you’re being serious. This whole dumb discussion is around climbing skills and whether Remco has proven he can climb with or better than Vingegaard. Cookster stated that Remco gained time on Vingegaard on the Galibier and cited it as an example of a time that Remco proved he was as strong or stronger than Vingegaard on the climbs. I pointed out that he actually just proved he was stronger on the flat in a group than Vingegaard was solo on the flat, as that is how he gained time, not uphill.

Is your argument that because he and a large group caught Vingegaard before the end, it should be counted as evidence that Remco and, presumably, the entire group (Roglic, Ayuso, Carlos Rodriguez) are as strong or stronger at climbing than Vingegaard? Or are we just flapping in the wind here.

Regarding the bolded, are you suggesting Remco is a good descender so dropping back was smart because he knew he’d be able to catch Vingegaard on the other side? He finished the climb 24 seconds ahead of Roglic and Ayuso but then was caught on the other side during the descent. If you made a typo and meant the opposite of what you said, I agree: He wisely rode all out so he’d have a head start on the climb to his competitors for third (first and second being up the road out of his reach despite his clear efforts to stay with them). If he’d ridden with them, they’d have dropped him like a stone on the descent and he’d have lost time to the top 6 or so.

I never have believed Remco is a better climber than any of those guys. I found the whole micro-portion of stages as evidence of real talent as somewhat anal and laughable.
Sean Kelly won a sh*t ton of races by being tactically capable of dosing effort. I didn't mean to challenge the concept of who was fastest on those climbs...why they were and "who is best" is somewhat muddled. Pogacar disappeared into space so the rest where no muy bueno.

 

[HashRouge]

Allan Peiper is a good addition to the team. He's one of those people who manages to be good and their job and a nice person, from what I can tell. He had a significant role in Pogacar's development too, so it will be interesting to see whether they have him working more with the big names like Remco or with some of the younger riders. I remember listening to him on a podcast after the 2020 Tour and he told a story about taking Pogacar to the Tour Down Under and him (Pogacar) losing his passport just as they were due to fly home.

 

[Berniece]

The first team camp is done, december camp is close and one of the best parts of the season is around the corner - spring classics.

I´m really curious to find out how Bora will tackle the cobbled spring classics this year.
With the Lazkano case one of the riders who was brought in to have success in the cobbled classics is gone.

I think Bora will attack the classics as a grand tour. Bringing the major squad early together in a altitude camp do some preparation races and then attack the races.

Which pool of riders can be a part of the classics squad?

For me the obvious riders are (and they should stay together mid february until Roubaix):

- Pithie
- Meeus
- Vermeersch
- Tratnik
- van Dijcke Mick
- van Dijcke Tim

Which riders can be also part of the team?

- van Poppel
- Drizners
- Marit (if the rumours are true)
- Thornley

Which riders of the Development team can fill spots and ride smaller classics?

- Pajur
- Clemmensen
- Putz
- Donati

These are 10 World tour riders for 7 spots, but we have to have in mind that riders like Drizners are more likely to appear in races like Scheldeprijs or Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne and not in Tour of Flanders, Dwaars door Vlaanderen or Omloop.

Is there a rider who can win a big classic (Roubaix, Flanders)? to be honest this can only happen by accident. But Meeus, Pithie or Mick van Dijcke can score a top 5 in these races.
The best thing that could happen this year is to stand on a podium in one of the big races and be there deep in the final with more than one rider. This will strength the believe in being competitive in classics. The next important thing for me is to win a smaller or medium classic. Which one depends on the calender Bora is riding. But in the development of a rider like Pithie it would be huge to win a race in the spring.

You mean specifically the cobbled classics I guess? They could add Moscon too, and some of us are hoping that Evenepoel will try to go for some of these races. Instead of focusing solely on Ardennes and stage racing.

 

[Statze2]

You mean specifically the cobbled classics I guess? They could add Moscon too, and some of us are hoping that Evenepoel will try to go for some of these races. Instead of focusing solely on Ardennes and stage racing.

I think Moscon (and Denz) will be needed for the Giro or Tour line up as Road Captains and reliable domestiques. So I think they will be with different Part of the Teams in altitude camps or preparation races in this period of the year.

Regarding im Remco, I would also love to see him in these races but I dont see him or Bora taking this „Risk“ in his first year. The risk of failure and injury is high in these races. This would add a lot of Noise around the Team. Imagine he is on Place 89 in Flanders and crashes hard in Roubaix then the Ardennes and the first grand tour would be at risk for himself and for Bora the Investment would give them no return in the first year. It would be a loose loose Situation.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

You mean specifically the cobbled classics I guess? They could add Moscon too, and some of us are hoping that Evenepoel will try to go for some of these races. Instead of focusing solely on Ardennes and stage racing.

So far Remco has had only 1 good race on cobbles, Brabantse last year. RBH is paying him a bazillion euros + the transfer fee to eventually win the Tour. Why would they send a non experienced (on cobbles) rider who struggles with positioning and is at the same time their by far the biggest investment to cobbled races? I very much doubt he could win against Pogacar or MvdP and the downside is that if you do crash and injure yourself, your slim chances for winning the Tour became pretty much nonexistent. RBH is not paying him for good results in cobbles classics, they're paying him to eventually win the Tour, I don't see how cobbles can increase his chances of doing so

 

[Berniece]

So far Remco has had only 1 good race on cobbles, Brabantse last year. RBH is paying him a bazillion euros + the transfer fee to eventually win the Tour. Why would they send a non experienced (on cobbles) rider who struggles with positioning and is at the same time their by far the biggest investment to cobbled races? I very much doubt he could win against Pogacar or MvdP and the downside is that if you do crash and injure yourself, your slim chances for winning the Tour became pretty much nonexistent. RBH is not paying him for good results in cobbles classics, they're paying him to eventually win the Tour, I don't see how cobbles can increase his chances of doing so

I'm not sure the only reason RBH is paying him that much is only for GT's. It's because he is a complete rider that can do classics, ITT and stage racing. It would make sense for his profile and strengths to go for other 1 day races too.

I do agree that there's a huge risk factor to it, definitely for someone like Evenepoel to who riding cobbles doesn't seem to come naturally. But the profile of the race suits him very much, and it would be nice to see him competitive during those races. Even more so for us viewers.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm not sure the only reason RBH is paying him that much is only for GT's. It's because he is a complete rider that can do classics, ITT and stage racing. It would make sense for his profile and strengths to go for other 1 day races too.

I do agree that there's a huge risk factor to it, definitely for someone like Evenepoel to who riding cobbles doesn't seem to come naturally. But the profile of the race suits him very much, and it would be nice to see him competitive during those races. Even more so for us viewers.

Yup, I would even say Remco is more a one-day racer than a stage-racer. He is contending classics as well as WC. Adding MSR is a must, Flandres is more debatable but why not. He showed a very high level on uphill cobbles recently (WC). RBH bought him for all-races capability, not just stage-races (they have lots of riders for that).

 

[Berniece]

Dutch article on RBH working together with Specialized and LaVision on particle image velocimetry to improve time trial positioning.

Apparently state of the art that they have only used in F1 before.

https://archive.is/WuuQ5

 

[vappaxbipmv]

@Berniece @Krzysztof_O

They surely didn't buy him and are not paying him all that money to win Basque country or Kuurne
The goal for RBH and Remco is and should be winning the Tour. I don't think Lipowitz can win it and they've already won the Giro and the Vuelta. WC is raced in a Belgian jersey and while he could win monuments, he's unlikely to do so when Pogacar and/or MvdP are at 100%. The other races aren't worth it. So they're paying him all that to at some point win the Tour, otherwise it is, in my opinion, a failed investment, a waste of money. Because he's unlikely to win multiple Giros and Vueltas