Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Mayomaniac]

I think the puirsuit is on the 10k race only, so if Klaebo has an off day Tuesday he could face some problems. For instance if he drops 20 seconds to a pair of good long distance skate specialists like Röthe, Krüger, Holund, Tönseth and possible Poromaa they could collaborate and put time into him, The likely event is the opposite of course and then a 20 km bore fest where Klaebo wins the sprint and keeps the distance he has today.

Regarding Krüger surely impressive performance today but there is the altitude advantage. But we know from the worlds that he also likes the Oberstdorf tracks (btw according to Swedish commentators there will be a tough 3,3km loop, I hope this means that they go high in the Burgstall climb).

For the woman, it surely looks good for Karlsson, she said in the interview she did not go full gas because she was afraid to blow up in the altitude and save energy to coming races. Tiril admitted it still was very hard to hang on and she was saved by brilliant skies. Very happy for her to win today, she has had a hard time in Norwegian media over the years where she has been blamed for the “poor” regrow of norwegain women. Kerttu did a brilliant race just like one year ago in Lenzerheide, she is truly the queen of altitude in the womens game but her classic style in general is probably best in world now (which she showed in Beitostölen). The Oberstdorf 10k should be intresting, it will be a key race for Tiril especially, she is likely to lose time and there is a risk she will be in a vacuum in the puirsuit.

As much as the Eurosport hype makes some dislike her, Diggins is up there at altitude if it comes to skating races.

 

[KZD]

I think the puirsuit is on the 10k race only, so if Klaebo has an off day Tuesday he could face some problems. For instance if he drops 20 seconds to a pair of good long distance skate specialists like Röthe, Krüger, Holund, Tönseth and possible Poromaa they could collaborate and put time into him, The likely event is the opposite of course and then a 20 km bore fest where Klaebo wins the sprint and keeps the distance he has today.

Regarding Krüger surely impressive performance today but there is the altitude advantage. But we know from the worlds that he also likes the Oberstdorf tracks (btw according to Swedish commentators there will be a tough 3,3km loop, I hope this means that they go high in the Burgstall climb).

Well if that is the case, then I actually expect Krüger to quickly catch Klæbo and dropping him and possibly everyone else in the last or second to last Burgstall climb (he might get caught on the descent though).

 

[BullsFan22]

I am glad I am not watching the mens races, a predictable bore fest. Once Pellegrino drops off, it’ll be another Norwegian sweep, unless Poromaa, Moch and Halfvasson can ski well.

 

[Erwin]

(btw according to Swedish commentators there will be a tough 3,3km loop, I hope this means that they go high in the Burgstall climb).

The standard Oberstdorf 3,3 km loop only includes the small Burgstall with MC 33 m.

 

[OJRvE]

The standard Oberstdorf 3,3 km loop only includes the small Burgstall with MC 33 m.

I know, but there are three different 3,3 courses homogolized, one with entire Burgstall up to Ponikvar MC 67, then there is one with MC 51 aswell, Since the announcer explicitly said it was a very tough course I thought it could a tougher course. But yeah they really like skiing on the golf course so I guess it would be to hope to much.

FIS | International Ski and Snowboard Federation

FIS globally governs skiing and snowboarding and oversees over 7,000 events annually in Alpine, Cross-Country, Ski Jumping, Nordic Combined, Freestyle, Snowboard, and more.

www.fis-ski.com

 

[Mayomaniac]

I am glad I am not watching the mens races, a predictable bore fest. Once Pellegrino drops off, it’ll be another Norwegian sweep, unless Poromaa, Moch and Halfvasson can ski well.

I mean, Moch has the engine to do well on the Alpe Cermis, but I think the amount of classic "distance" races and no skating individual starts hurts his chances.
No Russians taking away bonus seconds from the light guys with the big engines in the sprint could end up being a problem for Klaebo when it comes to Krüger.

 

[BullsFan22]

Would have been a perfect fit for Nepryaeva to defend her tds and overall word cup titles. Shame.

 

[search]

I know, but there are three different 3,3 courses homogolized, one with entire Burgstall up to Ponikvar MC 67, then there is one with MC 51 aswell, Since the announcer explicitly said it was a very tough course I thought it could a tougher course. But yeah they really like skiing on the golf course so I guess it would be to hope to much.

FIS | International Ski and Snowboard Federation

FIS globally governs skiing and snowboarding and oversees over 7,000 events annually in Alpine, Cross-Country, Ski Jumping, Nordic Combined, Freestyle, Snowboard, and more.

www.fis-ski.com

same as last year, they'll use the easiest 3.3k "red course" for both races, according to the media info provided by FIS

 

[OJRvE]

same as last year, they'll use the easiest 3.3k "red course" for both races, according to the media info provided by FIS

Ok. The announcer had no idea what she was talking about then, but that’s not surprising. I read a piece in the newspaper today, apparently it’s 14 degrees and a very icy course. Swedish vaxman told it’s impossible to ski at the moment and Emil Iversen suggested it’s the end of Oberstdorf in January. Lamplot from FIS seemed satisfied with conditions though and said the organizers will put more snow on the course. I guess hard surface is atleast a good start so let’s hope it’s not too awful.

 

[BullsFan22]

Aaaah yes, perfect Oberstdorf conditions!

 

[OJRvE]

I read that this is the last time Oberstdorf Will host Tour de Ski. Next year they host an event in womens ” Vierschanzentournee” which means the Tour wont fit in the schedule. There is no other places in Germany that could host a stage so that leaves it with Switzerland and Italy.

The good news is that FIS plans to include a longer stage in Davos, from Bünda to the Sertig Valley. Hopefully it will be similiar to the Cortina Toblach they used to have. But I guess the project is still a question mark considering previous failed attempt with similiar projects.

As I said before I hope FIS tries to replace Germany with France. They have several good skiers so maybe ut can bring some intrest.

For Germany, I remember reading that Saxony wanted to host races when they lost Dresden, possibly in Oberwiesenthal(?).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's always Reit im Winkl, or Ruhpolding if they get desperate but they'll have the same problem they had when Oberhof hosted the TDS in that the venue will be far more interested in the biathlon a couple of weeks later. Hennig is from over by Oberwiesenthal which may play into their interest. There probably should be more of the point to point type stuff, like the old Toblach-Cortina pursuit, the Engadin races in 2021 or Storlien-Meråker in 2020. Yes, that would upset Winterton and co. who like the idea of sprinters being able to contest the GC because they keep withdrawing, but the whole point was to be inspired by the cycling GTs and if they do it right, there's no reason for sprinters to withdraw if they have enough options (or they fix the 'points competition' and give out a good amount of World Cup points for it perhaps, with all TDS points lost if you withdraw before the finish, like how you can't win the green or polka dot jerseys if you dont' make it to Paris).

I'd honestly like to include a couple of stages that would encourage some of the Ski Classics types to enter as well such that it's a completely different, unique event on the calendar, rather than a mini-Tour that lasts a bit longer and relies pretty much exclusively on the Alpe Cermis for its character at this point. Skiers who rely on endurance and can't be competitive on a season-long basis against the more versatile athletes with the spread of sprint and medium distance type races, but who crop up periodically as distance specialists. Maybe not the likes of Gjerdalen who went to Ski Classics as distance specialists no longer able to get in the relevant teams at the World Cup level, but people like Ida Dahl, Astrid Øyre Slind, Martin Løwstrøm Nyenget and Andreas Nygaard could become kinda distance specialist special attractions in the race the same way as specialist wildcard team GC riders who targeted one GT once were. It's already interesting enough to see the occasional climbing breakout talent like Sophia Laukli or Delphine Claudel in the last couple of years putting in great performances on the Alpe, but I'm thinking more like the anomalous podium times that Liz Stephen used to put in on the Alpe and at Lysebotn while never being a threat to contend at the Tour due to her not being as versatile as the top names at the time (and of course the fact she was competing at the same time as Bjørgen and Kowalczyk which made it difficult for pretty much everybody not named Bjørgen or Kowalczyk to get too many wins in those days).

I know that's not what they're trying to do with the race, but as long as they're diluting what made it seem unique and different, it's just a regular World Cup mini-stage race but too long for several of the biggest contenders to bother with so it just means a depleted field even without the ban on the Russians, and with the loss of the Toblach-Cortina race (I always wanted them to add that to the women's race too) and the erosion of the variety across the stages from year to year, the Alpe Cermis is the only thing that remains that gave the race a sense of what they were originally trying to achieve with it. And while what you're likely selling to prospective hosts is that it'll be like a regular World Cup but potentially with fewer stars and less eyeballs than usual because the Val di Fiemme stages are by far the most important in the event, it's not going to find it so easy to find hosts queuing up for it.

 

[BullsFan22]

The tour up to 2015, had a good amount of interesting stages, prologues, pursuits, sometimes 5km for men, skiathlons, sprints, cortina to Toblach, city sprint in Prague, sprint in the Munich Olympiastadion (in the inaugural year of the TDS)…Last time there was a skiathlon in the tour was 2017, last time the Cortina to Toblach stage was held, 2015, last time the men had a 5km, 2012…

 

[Mayomaniac]

The sad thing is that despite the high temperatures Toblach-Cortina would have been possible this year, at least until Fiammes. Last week I skied back home from Fiammes and there were lots of people on the tracks until Toblach, probably around 200.

 

[Mayomaniac]

There's always Reit im Winkl, or Ruhpolding if they get desperate but they'll have the same problem they had when Oberhof hosted the TDS in that the venue will be far more interested in the biathlon a couple of weeks later. Hennig is from over by Oberwiesenthal which may play into their interest. There probably should be more of the point to point type stuff, like the old Toblach-Cortina pursuit, the Engadin races in 2021 or Storlien-Meråker in 2020. Yes, that would upset Winterton and co. who like the idea of sprinters being able to contest the GC because they keep withdrawing, but the whole point was to be inspired by the cycling GTs and if they do it right, there's no reason for sprinters to withdraw if they have enough options (or they fix the 'points competition' and give out a good amount of World Cup points for it perhaps, with all TDS points lost if you withdraw before the finish, like how you can't win the green or polka dot jerseys if you dont' make it to Paris).

I'd honestly like to include a couple of stages that would encourage some of the Ski Classics types to enter as well such that it's a completely different, unique event on the calendar, rather than a mini-Tour that lasts a bit longer and relies pretty much exclusively on the Alpe Cermis for its character at this point. Skiers who rely on endurance and can't be competitive on a season-long basis against the more versatile athletes with the spread of sprint and medium distance type races, but who crop up periodically as distance specialists. Maybe not the likes of Gjerdalen who went to Ski Classics as distance specialists no longer able to get in the relevant teams at the World Cup level, but people like Ida Dahl, Astrid Øyre Slind, Martin Løwstrøm Nyenget and Andreas Nygaard could become kinda distance specialist special attractions in the race the same way as specialist wildcard team GC riders who targeted one GT once were. It's already interesting enough to see the occasional climbing breakout talent like Sophia Laukli or Delphine Claudel in the last couple of years putting in great performances on the Alpe, but I'm thinking more like the anomalous podium times that Liz Stephen used to put in on the Alpe and at Lysebotn while never being a threat to contend at the Tour due to her not being as versatile as the top names at the time (and of course the fact she was competing at the same time as Bjørgen and Kowalczyk which made it difficult for pretty much everybody not named Bjørgen or Kowalczyk to get too many wins in those days).

I know that's not what they're trying to do with the race, but as long as they're diluting what made it seem unique and different, it's just a regular World Cup mini-stage race but too long for several of the biggest contenders to bother with so it just means a depleted field even without the ban on the Russians, and with the loss of the Toblach-Cortina race (I always wanted them to add that to the women's race too) and the erosion of the variety across the stages from year to year, the Alpe Cermis is the only thing that remains that gave the race a sense of what they were originally trying to achieve with it. And while what you're likely selling to prospective hosts is that it'll be like a regular World Cup but potentially with fewer stars and less eyeballs than usual because the Val di Fiemme stages are by far the most important in the event, it's not going to find it so easy to find hosts queuing up for it.

Or our local guy Roland Clara on the Alpe Cermis, always one of the best there.

Frankly I can see why someone like Zorzi thinks that with the current format we might as well just have 4 stages in 5 days in Val di Fiemme in WC and OG years (a sprint, skating individual start, the classic mass start and the Alpe Cermis pursuit). Clearly they have to change something, because the current format is just not working.

 

[Mayomaniac]

If smoothbrain Calle raced this one with a reasonable pacing strategy he'd have podiumed this one.

De Fa really benefitted from skiing behind Skar on the 2nd and 3rd lap (and still almost managed to crash near a finish, a classic de fail).

Also, is it just me or does Odgen's double poling techique still need some work?

Iivo dnf

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The tour up to 2015, had a good amount of interesting stages, prologues, pursuits, sometimes 5km for men, skiathlons, sprints, cortina to Toblach, city sprint in Prague, sprint in the Munich Olympiastadion (in the inaugural year of the TDS)…Last time there was a skiathlon in the tour was 2017, last time the Cortina to Toblach stage was held, 2015, last time the men had a 5km, 2012…

As an ideal, going back to what the Tour was meant to be and how it was originally conceived to become, you could arrive at something like this, but this is obviously waaaaaaay too hard for them to go straight to now and would see huge quantities of DNFs and DNSes due to the brutal nature of the calendar and the distances involved with so little recovery. The biathlon calendar is perceived as brutal in comparison to the XC one because the field is broadly the same across all races so there's a lot less rotation in selection than in the XC world, and this would be far more brutal than back to back biathlon World Cup weekends. Plus of course the aims of FIS back in 2005-6 and now are very different in terms of what they think will appeal and what can work for the sport.

In an ideal world the points classification gives the sprinters reason to stick around even if they are struggling with time cuts in distance races. Maybe there could be a mercy rule like the HTV Cup that if you miss a time cut you aren't kicked out but you become ineligible for the GC. This would cross two weeks with 10 stages across 15 days

Stage 1: Oberstdorf free sprint (or alternatively, a Burgstall individual start hillclimb as a prologue, that would be fun)
Stage 2: Oberstdorf 10km classic individual start (or a pursuit if you do the hillclimb individual start)
--rest day--
Stage 3: Engadin 50km/30km classic mass start (flat, Loppet calendar style)
--rest day--
--rest day--
Stage 4: Davos 20km free individual start
Stage 5: Val Müstair classic sprint
Stage 6: Toblach 10km free mass start
--rest day--
Stage 7: Toblach-Cortina 35km free pursuit
Stage 8: Val di Fiemme free sprint
--rest day--
Stage 9: Val di Fiemme 15k classic mass start
Stage 10: Alpe Cermis 9k free pursuit

That way you have a real mix of distances, a mix of styles of race (3x sprints, 2x individual start, 2x pursuit, 3x mass start - or 2x sprint, 2x individual start, 3x pursuit, 3x mass start), 4 classic and 6 free. You could swap out the Val di Fiemme sprint to put it in Engadin or Davos if you wanted to balance out the hosts a bit better, but I thought that that would just result in all the sprinters leaving at halfway. Assuming a finish on a Sunday for maximum TV audience, putting the double rest day after the Engadin race would also then ensure racing on all weekend days as well as lighten the load given we've put in a real long distance race of the kind we never see in the real Tour.

This is, I believe, a mix of what FIS really wanted to do when they consulted with RCS and a 'best case scenario' kind of view. Obviously I think they would ideally have wanted more city sprint type stuff like they did with Prague, or if somewhere like Oberwiesenthal or Oberhof came back into the running, this would be a superior use of the Dresden course (a prologue and a sprint) which would be infinitely better suited to that role than a standalone World Cup event consisting solely of sprint events on a featureless course where half the big names don't show up.

 

[Mayomaniac]

As an ideal, going back to what the Tour was meant to be and how it was originally conceived to become, you could arrive at something like this, but this is obviously waaaaaaay too hard for them to go straight to now and would see huge quantities of DNFs and DNSes due to the brutal nature of the calendar and the distances involved with so little recovery. The biathlon calendar is perceived as brutal in comparison to the XC one because the field is broadly the same across all races so there's a lot less rotation in selection than in the XC world, and this would be far more brutal than back to back biathlon World Cup weekends. Plus of course the aims of FIS back in 2005-6 and now are very different in terms of what they think will appeal and what can work for the sport.

In an ideal world the points classification gives the sprinters reason to stick around even if they are struggling with time cuts in distance races. Maybe there could be a mercy rule like the HTV Cup that if you miss a time cut you aren't kicked out but you become ineligible for the GC. This would cross two weeks with 10 stages across 15 days

Stage 1: Oberstdorf free sprint (or alternatively, a Burgstall individual start hillclimb as a prologue, that would be fun)
Stage 2: Oberstdorf 10km classic individual start (or a pursuit if you do the hillclimb individual start)
--rest day--
Stage 3: Engadin 50km/30km classic mass start (flat, Loppet calendar style)
--rest day--
--rest day--
Stage 4: Davos 20km free individual start
Stage 5: Val Müstair classic sprint
Stage 6: Toblach 10km free mass start
--rest day--
Stage 7: Toblach-Cortina 35km free pursuit
Stage 8: Val di Fiemme free sprint
--rest day--
Stage 9: Val di Fiemme 10k classic mass start
Stage 10: Alpe Cermis 9k free pursuit

That way you have a real mix of distances, a mix of styles of race (3x sprints, 2x individual start, 2x pursuit, 3x mass start - or 2x sprint, 2x individual start, 3x pursuit, 3x mass start), 4 classic and 6 free. You could swap out the Val di Fiemme sprint to put it in Engadin or Davos if you wanted to balance out the hosts a bit better, but I thought that that would just result in all the sprinters leaving at halfway. Assuming a finish on a Sunday for maximum TV audience, putting the double rest day after the Engadin race would also then ensure racing on all weekend days.

If you have a 10km race in Toblach you need to use the longest, hardest loops and maybe also do them clockwise instead of anticlockwise. Otherwise everything comes back together on the false flat downhill on the 2nd part of the downhill.

I'd also make Toblach-Cortina a classic pursuit, since you already have the final freestyle pursuit shortly after.
Maybe there could be a bit more cooperation with the Ski Classics, places that hold races there like Bad Gastein could jump in for Obersdorf (other places in Austria at moderate altitude could also replace Obersdorf). I'd also have them classic ski/double pole up the Plätzwiese climb in a mass start race in Toblach if we have enough snow (7kms at 8.2%) after starting in Toblach like the Ski Classics did last year, but that's just me being a long distance weirdo.

Maybe the Scandinavia Tour will take over as the actual proper Tour with long distance races in years when we don't have Olympics or a WC, but at this point I have very little hope for the Tour de Ski to change for the better.
At this point they really have to ask what's the incentive for towns to actually host a World Cup race? If you're not a huge skiing nations like the Scandinavians or Russia there won't be too many people there watching the race in the stadium/arena (sprints are only interesting if you're there) and what kind of media exposure to promote skiing tourism do you get from just showing off those loops? On paper long distance from point a to point b in a winter wonderland (wishful thinking atm) should be a much more attractive option to promote your territory and tourism, but the FIS will be doing FIS stuff...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you have a 10km race in Toblach you need to use the longest, hardest loops and maybe also do them clockwise instead of anticlockwise. Otherwise everything comes back together on the false flat downhill on the 2nd part of the downhill.

I actually kind of wanted that, though, as it should be in the remit of some of those who would contest the sprint/points bib - but given it's the third day of competition with the first of those being a 20k individual start, attrition might force gaps regardless or maybe some lesser knowns or decent-but-not-winning type skiers (take Musgrave for example, for whom this would be an ideal format you'd think) who are way down the GC could target it. It's intended as a skiing equivalent of a transitional breakaway stage in cycling.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I actually kind of wanted that, though, as it should be in the remit of some of those who would contest the sprint/points bib - but given it's the third day of competition with the first of those being a 20k individual start, attrition might force gaps regardless or maybe some lesser knowns or decent-but-not-winning type skiers (take Musgrave for example, for whom this would be an ideal format you'd think) who are way down the GC could target it. It's intended as a skiing equivalent of a transitional breakaway stage in cycling.

Ok, that's a fair point. I hope you know that Diggins would boss that kind of event in Toblach, those tracks are like her backyard...

 

[Mayomaniac]

I have to say it, props to the race organizers for being able to have a decent course despite the weather being all wrong.

 

[BullsFan22]

If smoothbrain Calle raced this one with a reasonable pacing strategy he'd have podiumed this one.

De Fa really benefitted from skiing behind Skar on the 2nd and 3rd lap (and still almost managed to crash near a finish, a classic de fail).

Also, is it just me or does Odgen's double poling techique still need some work?

Iivo dnf

Most of the US team need some work on technique. Ogden’s technique is awful. I think the American men greatly benefited from ski preparation. Under normal circumstances the result list wouldn’t see someone like Hunter Wonders or indeed Ben Ogden so high up.

On the flip side, the women are struggling, except Brennan.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Most of the US team need some work on technique. Ogden’s technique is awful. I think the American men greatly benefited from ski preparation. Under normal circumstances the result list wouldn’t see someone like Hunter Wonders or indeed Ben Ogden so high up.

On the flip side, the women are struggling, except Brennan.

Yeah, but today Odgen's subpar technique really stood out, imagine what he could have done with those skis and that engine if he had great technique.
They had 3 guys in the top 15, so they probably had great skis. Besides Brennan and maybe Schumacher the Americans seem to be just a lot better in skating than in classic skiing.

 

[OJRvE]

So according to Diggins she feels good it is just something she cannot control (like waxing and conditions). She tried to stay positive and keep a good mindset (“I got the chance to training on running herringbone”)

Kerttu Niskanen also blamed the skis, but the fact is she’s an awful descender and probably slided all her grip wax far away.

Not surprising Karlsson won, she likes these conditions and the shape is good. Will be interesting if she can maintain or extend the lead tomorrow, generally she is better at pacing in longer race.

I haven’t read anything in local media about a return of Tour if Scandinavia, they did it very bad last time, among other thing having the uphill sprint in Åre without booking sufficient numbers of hotel rooms. Instead I think they will do a trip to North America racing in Canmore, Minneapolis and Cable. Of course this was before the idea of FIS Games (which I guess still is on even if heard nothing about any possible organizers, Norway like to host it 2028 though).

 

[BullsFan22]

Perhaps Diggins still hasn’t recovered from the effort in Davos two weeks ago. There they had to scrape her off the snow.