Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Mayomaniac]

Swedes talking about bad skis, but probably just lack of form from Andersson and Karlsson. The female sprinters did just fine.

 

[search]

another Finnish win incoming. This one is a bit of a shocker

 

[Mayomaniac]

Hyvarinen skiing like a man possessed by the ghost of Simo Häyhä.

 

[dobrien]

Hyvarinen skiing like a man possessed by the ghost of Simo Häyhä.

Perttu and Kerttu; looks like the Finns really nailed the skis.

 

[dobrien]

Swedes talking about bad skis, but probably just lack of form from Andersson and Karlsson. The female sprinters did just fine.

And 3 Swedish men in the top 10 so far.

 

[search]

And 3 Swedish men in the top 10 so far.

Burman could even end up on the podium if Valnes keeps losing ground

 

[KZD]

Hyvarinen skiing like a man possessed by the ghost of Simo Häyhä.

With his facial hair and in Toblach, its like a tribute to Ustiugov.

Speaking about the Russians, with the Norwegians looking this bad they would have dominated this Tour de Ski.

 

[Mayomaniac]

If anyone told me before the race that Calle would finish s.t. as Golberg I'd have been impressed, but now it looks a lot less impressive.

No fluor and Norway suddenly a lot worse with light snowfall...

Burmann with a great race, if it was a 15km race he'd probably be ahead of the Norwegians ....

 

[meat puppet]

Okay, the competition was perhaps not the best, but it seems confirmed to me that the entire Finnish team had massive training fatigue during the start of the season. And now that it's evaporating, they hit form nicely.

Interesting to see if they have indeed overloaded on purpose on a non-OC/WC year, and attained a new level.

 

[dobrien]

If anyone told me before the race that Calle would finish s.t. as Golberg I'd have been impressed, but now it looks a lot less impressive.

No fluor and Norway suddenly a lot worse with light snowfall...

Burmann with a great race, if it was a 15km race he'd probably be ahead of the Norwegians ....

Again unable to watch live today so hard for me to get a handle on who looks like they have good skis, but some crazy results. Beda Klee in 6th? I often wish we could take waxing out of the mix so we'd get to see who is actually the strongest on a more consistent basis, not just who has the most $$$ to throw at it or who just got lucky on the day.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Again unable to watch live today so hard for me to get a handle on who looks like they have good skis, but some crazy results. Beda Klee in 6th? I often wish we could take waxing out of the mix so we'd get to see who is actually the strongest on a more consistent basis, not just who has the most $$$ to throw at it or who just got lucky on the day.

Imo neutral waxing teams and everyone having to pick between 2-3 options would be the way to go.

 

[dobrien]

Imo neutral waxing teams and everyone having to pick between 2-3 options would be the way to go.

I would be all for that; nothing will ever be 'perfect' but at least in theory the benefits would be huge IMHO. Ideally this would reduce costs for smaller nations and hopefully make skiing on the WC less daunting financially for little teams, make skiing more of an athletic competition than 'waxing arms race'.

Of course, how this would be funded would be an issue, perhaps annual dues from federations based on <some criteria TBD>, who knows. I won't bother enumerating potential stumbling blocks... I'm sure some nations would find a way to be unhappy about it but I do think it's one area that should be visited that could have big potential benefits to the health of the WC. The current model just seems ridiculous.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Imo neutral waxing teams and everyone having to pick between 2-3 options would be the way to go.

Waxing at elite level is extremely difficult and down to the smallest detail when it come to classic skiing. The nations that can afford to have the same waxer working with the same athlete year after year gain a big benefit because that waxer will have more experience with exactly what the athlete want.

Putting on the the grip wax is an art and all waxers are doing it slightly different. If Amundsen on the warm up say he needs a little more grip, working with his personal waxer they can come to the perfect solution based on experience. If Amundsen were to give the same instructions to 10 different “neutral waxers” it would’ve been 10 different results he got back. Just the grip wax itself is easy to select, but the way you put it on, thickness of each layers and how long each layer is may vary a lot.

All the talk about common waxing etc can work very well in skating, but in classic I think it would lead to much more randomness. What could be good however is that the waxing buses are being replaced by a massive waxing tent, where everyone can see exactly what everyone else is doing.

 

[dobrien]

Waxing at elite level is extremely difficult and down to the smallest detail when it come to classic skiing. The nations that can afford to have the same waxer working with the same athlete year after year gain a big benefit because that waxer will have more experience with exactly what the athlete want.

Putting on the the grip wax is an art and all waxers are doing it slightly different. If Amundsen on the warm up say he needs a little more grip, working with his personal waxer they can come to the perfect solution based on experience. If Amundsen were to give the same instructions to 10 different “neutral waxers” it would’ve been 10 different results he got back. Just the grip wax itself is easy to select, but the way you put it on, thickness of each layers and how long each layer is may vary a lot.

All the talk about common waxing etc can work very well in skating, but in classic I think it would lead to much more randomness. What could be good however is that the waxing buses are being replaced by a massive waxing tent, where everyone can see exactly what everyone else is doing.

Honestly, with how good skin skis are now it might be worth exploring getting rid of grip waxing altogether. I realize this may sound like blasphemy but it's worth brainstorming 'outside the box' solutions IMHO; moving forward I believe simplifying and reducing the costs/complications/variability of waxing would be a goal that could pay great dividends.

Changes in culture/tradition are always hard but it seems clear to me at least that the amount of money spent on the esoterica of ski waxing is going to be increasingly difficult to sustain. Skins (or zeroes in the right conditions) may not be as good as a 'perfectly' waxed pair of regular classic skis, but their behavior is consistent and it's a vastly simplified solution. Instead of asking for a tiny bit more grip, skiers come up through the ranks understanding they need to learn how to ski the skis they have. And if you just can't get them working, just gotta be really good at the herringbone... Of course there would be teething issues but that's true of any change

Just thinking out loud; again, i'm no utopian but I think it's worth throwing the ideas out there. Whether FIS or the ski federations would ever entertain something like this is another matter entirely of course.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Honestly, with how good skin skis are now it might be worth exploring getting rid of grip waxing altogether. I realize this may sound like blasphemy

Skin skis are a lot worse than normal skis. My guess is that they would go a minute slower on a 10k on skin skis. For the tv viewers it would make a big difference, but for the athletes it would.

I think if this was to be put in play the athletes would optimize it and have a loooot of different skin skis for different conductions. On warm days Klæbo might go for a pair of skis that are created for 70 kg athlete, on a cold day he might pick a pair that would be created for a 50 kg athlete.

With skin skis i think the skiers that are good at going with very little grip today would have a BIGGER benefit of better glide than today.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Honestly, with how good skin skis are now it might be worth exploring getting rid of grip waxing altogether. I realize this may sound like blasphemy but it's worth brainstorming 'outside the box' solutions IMHO; moving forward I believe simplifying and reducing the costs/complications/variability of waxing would be a goal that could pay great dividends.

Changes in culture/tradition are always hard but it seems clear to me at least that the amount of money spent on the esoterica of ski waxing is going to be increasingly difficult to sustain. Skins (or zeroes in the right conditions) may not be as good as a 'perfectly' waxed pair of regular classic skis, but their behavior is consistent and it's a vastly simplified solution. Instead of asking for a tiny bit more grip, skiers come up through the ranks understanding they need to learn how to ski the skis they have. And if you just can't get them working, just gotta be really good at the herringbone... Of course there would be teething issues but that's true of any change

Just thinking out loud; again, i'm no utopian but I think it's worth throwing the ideas out there. Whether FIS or the ski federations would ever entertain something like this is another matter entirely of course.

There were neutral waxing teams for the mixed relay at the end of the last season, if I remember correctly.

 

[meat puppet]

Don't know how it is elsewhere, but from what I hear from the Finnish scene, putting a cap on costs should be enacted on the junior levels already. Xc has become strictly an upper / upper middle class sport. Ex skier Matti Heikkinen, currently the head of elite competitive sport at our Olympic committee (and hardly a left-leaning person), has been voicing this concern for years.

One pair of cold/plus race skis for both styles per season should be the maximum of what is allowed in juniors. And ban all waxing altogether on that level.

 

[dobrien]

Skin skis are a lot worse than normal skis. My guess is that they would go a minute slower on a 10k on skin skis. For the tv viewers it would make a big difference, but for the athletes it would.

I think if this was to be put in play the athletes would optimize it and have a loooot of different skin skis for different conductions. On warm days Klæbo might go for a pair of skis that are created for 70 kg athlete, on a cold day he might pick a pair that would be created for a 50 kg athlete.

With skin skis i think the skiers that are good at going with very little grip today would have a BIGGER benefit of better glide than today.

Have you skied any of the newer skin skis? (Not trying to be confrontational, just asking). The gap between regular classic skis and skins has narrowed dramatically IMHO. I own a pair of Atomic Redster world cups, and a pair of Atomic C9 skins, and as far as I'm concerned the gap is very close skiing on the American Birkebeiner trails; lots of steep walls and fast descents. Granted, I'm no world cup skier but I have solid classic technique and know what a good pocket feels like. My Redsters have to be waxed basically perfectly to outdo the C9 performance-wise. Skins can be a little sketchier descending but that's where having the right flex really helps, again just my .02. (To be honest, now that I've got my C9 skins I don't ski my regular classic skis that much; the 'grab and go' nature of skins is just too tempting. I choose my Redsters on pure klister days, or else just skate.)

For sure there would be teething issues as I said, might take time to work out the protocols. But in terms of numbers of skis, the best athletes already have giant quivers of skis, that's nothing new. Whatever the potential downside, I'd think the potential upside could vastly outweigh any negatives. Again, just harvesting ideas here; I'd love to see FIS attempt a pilot project as I do believe the current model just isn't sustainable over time. Good discussion regardless.

 

[BullsFan22]

Perttu Hyvarinem?!? LOL

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

There were neutral waxing teams for the mixed relay at the end of the last season, if I remember correctly.

It was neutral waxing in Tallin for the skate sprint, not in Falun. For skating neutral waxing should work pretty well.

One pair of cold/plus race skis for both styles per season should be the maximum of what is allowed in juniors. And ban all waxing altogether on that level.

Limiting the number of skis kids/youth/juniors can have is a good idea.
But what do you mean by “ban all waxing”??
If you don’t put wax on the skis regularly they will get ruined…

Have you skied any of the newer skin skis? (Not trying to be confrontational, just asking). The gap between regular classic skis and skins has narrowed dramatically IMHO.

I bought the Fischer skin top model two years ago and have used them quite a lot. I don’t race anymore, but the only conditions I would pick them over normal skis are around 0 when the waxing conditions are very tricky (but then I’d probably take the Zero skis). By my experience around zero the difference is smallest, then it gets bigger and bigger difference the colder and warmer it gets. Im lazy and use the skin skis around 80% of the time I go classic.

 

[dobrien]

Don't know how it is elsewhere, but from what I hear from the Finnish scene, putting a cap on costs should be enacted on the junior levels already. Xc has become strictly an upper / upper middle class sport. Ex skier Matti Heikkinen, currently the head of elite competitive sport at our Olympic committee (and hardly a left-leaning person), has been voicing this concern for years.

One pair of cold/plus race skis for both styles per season should be the maximum of what is allowed in juniors. And ban all waxing altogether on that level.

As the great industrial designer Bruce Mau once said "Harvest ideas, edit applications!" So I'll harvest another idea, riffing on your post.

I recall Jessie Diggin's saying she has something like 25 pairs of classic skis and 30 pairs of skate skis?!? This is just out of reach for smaller federations or privateer skiers unless they have really deep pockets. One idea? Allow each skier a quiver of up to x (10, 15?) skis, distributed however the skier wants based on the upcoming WC schedule and their particular strengths/weaknesses/goals. One skier might choose 5 skins and 10 skate, another the opposite. Allow n substitutions per period, approved by FIS. Embed an encrypted chip so FIS can check to ensure skiers/federations aren't illegally substituting skis.

Just one idea, but again, if the goal is to start trying to get more nations back into the WC and/or encourage more privateers to participate, dramatically reducing cost and complexity of participation has to be on the table in some fashion.

This does not of course address the dreadful bastardization/watering down of the race calendar but that's another issue entirely.

 

[dobrien]

I'm lazy and use the skin skis around 80% of the time I go classic.

Ha! This is me for sure.

 

[BullsFan22]

For Niskanen to have a chance at the podium, she’ll need to do a good race tomorrow. She’ll also need to qualify in Davos. If FIS wants to do 2 sprints in a tour, they need to have one that’s classic. Also, don’t really get all these 20km’s. Not having a skiathlon in a calendar is ridiculous.

Not sure if I’ll watch any of the races, but yeah, the snow conditions played a big role today.

 

[dobrien]

For Niskanen to have a chance at the podium, she’ll need to do a good race tomorrow. She’ll also need to qualify in Davos. If FIS wants to do 2 sprints in a tour, they need to have one that’s classic. Also, don’t really get all these 20km’s. Not having a skiathlon in a calendar is ridiculous.

Not sure if I’ll watch any of the races, but yeah, the snow conditions played a big role today.

Totally do not get having two skate sprints in the Tour, for whatever reason.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I recall Jessie Diggin's saying she has something like 25 pairs of classic skis and 30 pairs of skate skis?!? This is just out of reach for smaller federations or privateer skiers unless they have really deep pockets.

At world cup Level I don’t think the cost of the skis matters. Even the worst ones have probably a deal where they don’t pay anywhere near full prize for the skis and the cost of the skis are very small compared to the cost for travel, hotels etc.

Limiting the number of skis are however a key for kids and juniors, where it really makes a different if you parents can buy you 5 new pairs every year or if you’re a kid that has to use 5 years old skis from your brother.

My brothers and some guys I used to train with back in the days which sometimes got in the top 10/20/30 of Norwegian junior champs had deals where they paid around 30% of full price for new skis (they had deals with Madshus and Atomic) and they generally had around 6-7 new pairs every year so it was still a pretty big cost for the parents (and I never got new ones as I was bad and had to use my brothers old ones😂)