We are in agreement by the way, that more strength training and double poling would be great for her; I don't think she has to go nuts like some of the ski classics people, just adjust the percentages over the next couple of years. Her physiology is not going to really result in her bulking up a lot so I certainly think she could do more of this without killing her trail running. She's only 23, there is time. Thanks for the link, I'd not seen that one and will read it later.
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Surprising results in the men's race, Amundsen was obviously the strongest skier overall but Moch and Lapalus on the final podium are great news for both Germany and France. France in particular had an incredible Tour with 3 stage wins, the same as Norway. Klee also did a very good race.
In biathlon, a 2 minute advantage for Norway is huge even for Norway's standards and shows how one sided the sport currently is on the men's side. At least the women's race was quite interesting.
In biathlon, a 2 minute advantage for Norway is huge even for Norway's standards and shows how one sided the sport currently is on the men's side. At least the women's race was quite interesting.
- Feb 20, 2010
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The issue is that if Sophia becomes somebody successful enough to be marketable, FIS' attempt to get a greater foothold in the US might get them to start tailoring the circuit to her and not f***ing Diggins, and that will mean lots of longer and harder races and would be far better for the sport than the current homogenous drivel they serve up.
Kidding on the square, of course - Sophia might well become a lot less interesting and entertaining if she was to give up the things that help her have fun and be fun to follow.
Now now, take a deep breath...
There is zero chance of this happening, unfortunately (and I understand you're just wishfully thinking out loud; I would wish for the same thing..) They could tailor the circuit all they want and more Americans would still watch obscure college football games(american football that is) than would ever tune in for a nordic ski race. I've got friends from Colorado who are longtime endurance athletes, think Sophia Laukli is awesome (from trail running), and who haven't tuned in to watch a single nordic ski race all season.
In this we agree wholeheartedly.
- Apr 10, 2019
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Clearly we just need more uphill races to have the Central Europeans more competitive, just look at how well they are doing in Ski Mountaineering.
About Laukli, yeah she probably should do a bit strength training to improve her classic skiing. At this point she is almost scary thin. If she ever gets bored from XC skiing she might switch over to Ski Mo and combine it with trailrunning, Killian Jornet style.
About Laukli, yeah she probably should do a bit strength training to improve her classic skiing. At this point she is almost scary thin. If she ever gets bored from XC skiing she might switch over to Ski Mo and combine it with trailrunning, Killian Jornet style.
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I also think the return to many longer races are only a dream and not realistic.
Shorter races, like 10 km intervalstarts and 20 km masstarts (yes I know it's actually longer for the women), is unfortunlately better suited for TV times (races takes shorter time) and FIS knows cross country in most countries need to fit in between the biathlon and alpine skiing. So i think our hopes should be more towards a bigger variation in courses and not in distances where the longer ones returns.
For the women the new championship program with 20 km skiathlon and 50 km masstart is however a big step in the right direction where the races are becoming harder, while the men of course goes the other way with 10 + 20 km instead of 15+30.
Shorter races, like 10 km intervalstarts and 20 km masstarts (yes I know it's actually longer for the women), is unfortunlately better suited for TV times (races takes shorter time) and FIS knows cross country in most countries need to fit in between the biathlon and alpine skiing. So i think our hopes should be more towards a bigger variation in courses and not in distances where the longer ones returns.
For the women the new championship program with 20 km skiathlon and 50 km masstart is however a big step in the right direction where the races are becoming harder, while the men of course goes the other way with 10 + 20 km instead of 15+30.
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I know this and you know this, but FIS seemingly don't, or possibly they do, but they are nevertheless committing to the strategy, more in hope than expectation. To be fair to them, they're trying to find something to replace the hole in the viewing figures caused by the drop-off in Russian audiences, and much as any other sport, they try to cash in on what they see as profitable markets or opportunities.
Just look at how Spain - always a marginal nation in car racing, as the motorcycle has always been king - suddenly got 2 GPs when Fernando Alonso was at his peak, one of which was on a course which has already become a barren wasteland. When Germany's broadcasters got fed up of doping scandals and stopped showing the Tour, ASO were suddenly very keen to foster the success of British riders, a market that historically had been marginal to the sport - they changed the rules of the green jersey competition to more favour sprinters and they delivered a lot of TT-heavy and easily controllable parcours that suited the British riders at the time, resulting in a huge up-tick in following of the sport in that country and softening the blow of that lost German audience.
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Maybe I'm misunderstand you because my English is highly mediocre, but are you saying that you think (not only this post, but I've seen a couple from you about similar topic earlier) FIS is actively trying to break into the American market by making the race calendar to suit Diggins?
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I don't necessarily think that they're manipulating the calendar specifically for her (I wouldn't be surprised, but I think it's more about making sure the calendar isn't against her), but I think they see Diggins as a potentially marketable star in a market that doesn't already have an in-built audience (i.e. they lost a large amount of the Russian audience, but that can never be replaced by a marketable Scandinavian star because for the most part people interested in the sport in Norway and Sweden are already watching, whereas people in the US by and large aren't) and highly beneficial to growing the sport and are pushing her from a media and PR standpoint to that effect.
You might see that as me being a bit conspiratorial, but I don't think it's about anything untoward, I think it's just about business.
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Okay, I think perhaps that is a view colored by the cycling sport where there is a heavy tradition to design courses for specific riders.
When it comes to the changes in the Championship program for example I think there is nothing that points one way or another for Diggins. If anything the changes in the skiathlon and the 30 k to 50k could be seen as something that is heavily favoring the Swedes, and especially Ebba Andersson.
When it comes to the Tour program this year I think that if they had any plans on making it fit Diggins better than for example Ebba, they did a very, very bad job removing the bonus seconds from the chasing starts and to make the classic race in Davos a chasing start meaning Diggins advantage from the sprint the day before was not worth much. I would say that with the two chasing starts the organizers tried to make it about the last weekend in the Tour (which we all known from cycling GTs where organizers want to keep things close) and I think it's a bit weird to think this first and foremost is a advantage for Diggins. I would say it's more a benefit for Ebba which normally loses a lot of time in the sprints, would benefit from erasing this time loss in the chasing starts and than would have a suitable program in the last weekend.
When it comes to the changes in the Championship program for example I think there is nothing that points one way or another for Diggins. If anything the changes in the skiathlon and the 30 k to 50k could be seen as something that is heavily favoring the Swedes, and especially Ebba Andersson.
When it comes to the Tour program this year I think that if they had any plans on making it fit Diggins better than for example Ebba, they did a very, very bad job removing the bonus seconds from the chasing starts and to make the classic race in Davos a chasing start meaning Diggins advantage from the sprint the day before was not worth much. I would say that with the two chasing starts the organizers tried to make it about the last weekend in the Tour (which we all known from cycling GTs where organizers want to keep things close) and I think it's a bit weird to think this first and foremost is a advantage for Diggins. I would say it's more a benefit for Ebba which normally loses a lot of time in the sprints, would benefit from erasing this time loss in the chasing starts and than would have a suitable program in the last weekend.
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But the thing with the chasing starts is that while you can say that in theory it punishes success, at the same time to finish together, the skier who lost time in the sprints has to work much harder because they have to ski x amount of time faster. Diggins' advantage from the sprint the day before was worth the fact that she didn't need to complete the course as fast as somebody who didn't get given ridiculous time bonuses from sprints in order to be level with them going into the final weekend.
Yes, the flip side to that is that the athlete that starts in the wave doesn't have to enter the sprint rounds, but we've seen over and over again that FIS overvalues sprints and given the small size of the fields I understand them not wanting to run the sprinters out of town early.
I don't think it's that far fetched to say that FIS is riding Diggins' success hard. Just a cursory look through the news articles' cover images of the last few days:
- Niskanen's win is accompanied by a podium photo showing her with Brennan and Diggins
- Svahn's second win is accompanied by a picture of Diggins bumping fists with her
- Roundup clips on NYD about both genders' TDS catchups is accompanied by a picture of Diggins and no picture of Amundsen
- Article about Diggins winning pursuit with picture of Diggins
- Report on pursuit race won by Diggins (only stage to get two articles until the final climb)
- Article about Niskanen winning the 10k headlined with Diggins leading the race
Yes, she's prominent in the sport and where she wins and is leading the Tour that should be acknowledged, if I go to the FIS site expecting them to not acknowledge the current World Cup leader I'm an idiot, I get that. But the number of images of Amundsen accompanying the articles across the same period of time are far lower, and the number of images where the winner is shown alongside Amundsen or with multiple athletes shown are practically non-existent on the site's articles on the men.
Yes, the flip side to that is that the athlete that starts in the wave doesn't have to enter the sprint rounds, but we've seen over and over again that FIS overvalues sprints and given the small size of the fields I understand them not wanting to run the sprinters out of town early.
I don't think it's that far fetched to say that FIS is riding Diggins' success hard. Just a cursory look through the news articles' cover images of the last few days:
- Niskanen's win is accompanied by a podium photo showing her with Brennan and Diggins
- Svahn's second win is accompanied by a picture of Diggins bumping fists with her
- Roundup clips on NYD about both genders' TDS catchups is accompanied by a picture of Diggins and no picture of Amundsen
- Article about Diggins winning pursuit with picture of Diggins
- Report on pursuit race won by Diggins (only stage to get two articles until the final climb)
- Article about Niskanen winning the 10k headlined with Diggins leading the race
Yes, she's prominent in the sport and where she wins and is leading the Tour that should be acknowledged, if I go to the FIS site expecting them to not acknowledge the current World Cup leader I'm an idiot, I get that. But the number of images of Amundsen accompanying the articles across the same period of time are far lower, and the number of images where the winner is shown alongside Amundsen or with multiple athletes shown are practically non-existent on the site's articles on the men.
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The sprints is a big issue, because it’s extremely hard to find a good value how much harder it is to race a full sprint versus just the prologue and how it affects the rest of the Tour.
The bonus seconds are big and the difference from 1st to 31st in a sprint race is about 1min 10s to 1min 15s (1min + difference in prologue). That difference is in general much smaller than the difference between 1st and 31st in a 10k interval start
Toblach 1m53s
Trondheim 2m03s
Östersund 2m13s
Gällivare 2m16s
Kuusamo 1m45s
So the sprint races counts much less overall than a 10k race, which I think is very much correct, and Im therefore not sure it’s correct to say that the sprint races are overvalued.
I heard somewhere that this is the longest tour in time ever for the women with quite some margin (close to an hour longer than the previous longest??) so in that regard it’s been a huge step forward towards the distance skiers on paper, but got slightly ruined as the conditions yesterday ruined a day that should’ve been a big GC day.
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The media things you mention I guess you are correct about, I’ve not thought about or registered anything like that.
Oh really? I’ve raced on the Europa cup level.
Second, the only time I’ve seen Diggins with legitimately bad skis was the 2019 classic mass start in Oberstdorf, but just about everyone struggled there. Stina Nilsson had to stop and try to scrape off the kick wax with her skis near the top of the Burgstall.
You are not gonna win arguments making ad hominem attacks,
Among many other things, this tour needs like a 27 year old Manificat, someone that can grind away in a skate race and keep the pace high. Granted, he was never the best mass start skier, given his lack of finishing speed.
- Feb 20, 2010
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I guess my thinking is that the max distance anybody is skiing extra in a sprint is 4,5k right? Approx max of 1500m (often shorter), with a heat, semi and a final. As a result I think the gaps allowable by the bonuses should be commensurate with a race of approximately that distance and based on the rough averages given by your examples above, suggesting ~2m for 10k from 1 to 30, then it should be 45-50 seconds max. Any more is overbalancing the race. I can understand why in the short stage races they would do this so that it enforces gaps for the final stage (although I mightn't like it) and balances out the race between short distance and long distance specialists, but in a race like the Tour de Ski, a stage win should mean more (it doesn't at the moment as things stand, but as long as we're being theoretical here) and so we don't need to be throwing out exaggerated time bonuses any more than the Tour or the Giro need to be giving bonuses of 10 minutes down to 1 for the top 10 finishers on sprints to keep sprinters in contention for the GC; they're not supposed to be contenders for the GC.
In all honesty I don't really understand how a sprint can be used as part of a stage race because it introduces a huge amount of discrepancy in terms of how far a skier has actually skied and makes actually comparing the time skied by the competitors impossible, but appreciate it rather needs to be there to break up the formats and also give a number of other athletes a reason to be there and something to compete for.
But I think I'm a bit too hung up on what the Tour was conceived as being and was intended to be, rather than what it has become in practice.
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It would be cool to see a pure distance racing Tour. Seven stages or so where it’s say 5 masstarts (all of them atleast 15-20 km, the longest maybe up to 40 kilometers?) and 2 interval starts. If you did a pure sprint weekend the last race weekend before the tour and the first race weekend after the tour it could work as the pure sprinter won’t lose out on a month of racing or so.
Unfortunately such a tour setup would break with what FIS have made to tour to be, they clearly want sprint results having a possible significant value, so I think it’s fair to say they will not remove the sprint races from tour de ski.
I think the only chance of something like this, a distance racing tour, is to do it in February/March in next championship free season.
It could be organized in Norway/Sweden (have stages like that Meråker one or make something on the mountain above Lillehammer using part of Birken courses) or in the Alps, for example one stage could be the Engadin course like they did a few years ago as the Season ender.
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Regarding the 4,5 km extra for all sprint heats that sounds about right. And by maths then 45-50 seconds sounds also about right. But then we are pretty close to a minute (a minute sounds much cooler) and if we just add a small bonus for the extra effort of extra warming up and keeping the body ready between the heats 1 minute isn’t that bad when you already have 45-50 seconds based on the extra race distance
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A very good day for the French team, what with the win for Lapierre, podium and TdS podium for Lapalus as well as podium for Claudel. Happy to see Manificat in the top 20 and kudos to Chanavat going for the points.
Also my deepest sympathies to Chanavat for being subjected to this kind of reporting (quote from fasterskier.com).
"Much much later, at the hard-won summit of Alpe Cermis, Chanavat crossed the line to claim the Points Championship. It’s unlikely that he’s ever skied so far or so high."
Yes, I understand that the writer was poking a bit of fun, but come on.
ETA: Chappaz second in the points classification, too!
Also my deepest sympathies to Chanavat for being subjected to this kind of reporting (quote from fasterskier.com).
"Much much later, at the hard-won summit of Alpe Cermis, Chanavat crossed the line to claim the Points Championship. It’s unlikely that he’s ever skied so far or so high."
Yes, I understand that the writer was poking a bit of fun, but come on.
ETA: Chappaz second in the points classification, too!
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Well done as an athlete. But that doesn’t matter much. Being a good athlete still isn’t a stamp of approval when it comes to good takes on the sport. We see proofs of that every weekend with football pundits for example and I’d believe about 60% of the entire Norwegian population would be better at race analysis than Heidi Weng, no matter how good of an athlete she is.
It’s like the old saying “You don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey.”
Unfortunately the season ends way too early, spring skiing in Lapland is magical. I would love to have something similar to Lapponia in the world cup. 3 stages in 4 days, 60, 50, 80 km freestyle. We could add some very hilly and long stages in classic style as well similar to e.g. Reistadlöpet (I don't want to watch 3 hours of double-poling).
Pitkät matkat
Pitkät matkat koostuvat 60 km, 50 km ja 80 km hiihtopäivistä. Sarjoina pitkillä matkoilla ovat yleinen miehet ja naiset sekä joukkuesarja.
- Nov 28, 2021
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Never understood the Karlsson hype but surprised she didn’t work on her awful technique up the climb.
For sure her technique is suited to lower gradient where she has an advantage over climbers like Weng who goes with shorter pulls. But in this climb it won’t work and I thought she would have spended some time to change it this year considering this is the most important race on the calendar. Not that it would have mattered for podium today. The top three just to strong.
I think the snowfall yesterday costed Niskanen the tour though.
For sure her technique is suited to lower gradient where she has an advantage over climbers like Weng who goes with shorter pulls. But in this climb it won’t work and I thought she would have spended some time to change it this year considering this is the most important race on the calendar. Not that it would have mattered for podium today. The top three just to strong.
I think the snowfall yesterday costed Niskanen the tour though.
- Feb 20, 2010
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I think the problem is that they haven't figured out how to make the sprint bib (or the points bib in the Tour) worth something separate from the season-long competition or to make the stage win reward enough in and of itself, so they want the sprint to have a significant impact on the GC to try to encourage those competing for the GC to take part, but the pursuit seems to have had completely the opposite effect, with people almost happier not to qualify in Davos. My fear is that the lesson they'll take from this is that the sprints need to be more incentivised rather than less in the time. Any time gained/lost in the sprint other than quali is pure artificiality, so the more impact the sprint has, the less credible the Tour results are as an actual metric of judging performance in the race. With all due respects to her, Jonna Sundling should not be sitting 3rd on GC at the base of the Alpe based almost entirely on time bonuses if the course is actually a stage race and not throwing sops to the sprinters to artificially generate "balance". She lost a minute to Niskanen in 10km, and still started ahead of her on the stage 3 pursuit.Unfortunately such a tour setup would break with what FIS have made to tour to be, they clearly want sprint results having a possible significant value, so I think it’s fair to say they will not remove the sprint races from tour de ski.
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Regarding the 4,5 km extra for all sprint heats that sounds about right. And by maths then 45-50 seconds sounds also about right. But then we are pretty close to a minute (a minute sounds much cooler) and if we just add a small bonus for the extra effort of extra warming up and keeping the body ready between the heats 1 minute isn’t that bad when you already have 45-50 seconds based on the extra race distance
As I say, though, I don't really know how you balance that without fundamentally changing what FIS wants to do with the race. I mean, if none of the sprint specialists want to turn up, then the field will be even sorrier than it has been here, but you look at the results and see:
- stage 1 (sprint): Diggins qualifies ~10s faster than Niskanen
- stage 2 (individual start): Niskanen beats Diggins by ~11s
- stage 3 (pursuit): Diggins finishes ~53s ahead of Niskanen after starting 28" ahead so gained 25"
- stage 4 (sprint): Diggins qualifies ~7s ahead of Niskanen
- stage 5 (pursuit): Niskanen beats Diggins by ~9s after starting 55" behind so gained 1'04"
- stage 6 (mass start): Diggins beats Niskanen by ~3s
- stage 7 (mass start hillclimb): Niskanen beats Diggins by ~9s
So when they actually raced head to head, Niskanen actually beat Diggins by around 39" by my reckoning. The remainder is time bonuses Diggins gained by being able to sprint. Both sprints being in skate technique which also disadvantages Niskanen, might I add. And that's with Diggins not actually having done all that well in the Toblach sprint.
To me, that seems too artificial. I don't agree with adding anything on to the approximation of the amount for the distance, and that 45-50 seconds I thought should be the absolute maximum. I would prefer to cap the GC bonuses at 30 seconds, and only give them for those that made the final, to introduce some more jeopardy.
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My issue with doing a comparison like this is that the race times from chasing starts in my opinion gives a very wrong picture of the performance level.
In Toblach Diggins went alone the entire way, while Niskanen was alone only the first two kilometers and then worked together (basically only followed the group after Karlsson came by) with other girls the last 20 kilometer. In masstart events we always talk about how much stronger the athletes that are doing the work in front really are. I think it’s fair to say that this is a race where the difference between them in strength was much bigger than the time difference in the end showed.
In Davos the snow ruined the race in most ways. All gaps was neutralized in less than 3 km. Of course the ones behind put a little more effort into those first 3 km, but the difference in effort was nowhere near to be equal to the difference in time races until the group came together. The snow made the girls behind catch the lost time from the sprint almost for free.
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When it comes to the balance of the sprints I think we both understand the points of the other, but we will not agree in the end. For example your last idea where you basically want to punish athletes for qualifying for the quarter final and semi final by not giving them bonus seconds and therefore gain nothing for the extra effort of 1 or 2 heats extra sounds very wrong to me. I’m not saying the bonus second system of today is perfect, but I think it’s much better than such a suggestion.
The conditions in Davos and Val di Fiemme didn’t allow for anything significant to happen.
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