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Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Same thing in the men with Baumann, Altimiras and Jouve achieving results that would be unthinkable in a 20km classic mass-start a few years ago. The Russians really need to be back to the World Cup.

But it’s not even the Russians, it’s a number of factors: calendar, money, lack of interest, lack of development.

Italy didn’t compete in Les Rousses. Norway had their nationals the same weekend, only one Asian skier took part (Wang), no Kazakhs, no Poles, not many Czechs, no Slovaks (basically only a few skiers from Eastern Europe) , the Swiss didn’t have a full team, Austria as per usual had only a couple skiers…

There were only 36 skiers in the final result in the women’s race…
 
only one Asian skier took part (Wang), no Kazakhs, no Poles, not many Czechs, no Slovaks (basically only a few skiers from Eastern Europe) , the Swiss didn’t have a full team, Austria as per usual had only a couple skiers…
But if you look at all those nations you mention there really is only Beda Klee and Michal Novak that have been competitive for top 10 or even top 15. Among the Italians it’s basically just Pellegrino and maybe Barp that could be up there. So all in all what the men’s field was missing are those 4 I mentioned, Perttu Hyvarinen and then a couple of Norwegians from what’s been the norm since Russia got banned.
 
But if you look at all those nations you mention there really is only Beda Klee and Michal Novak that have been competitive for top 10 or even top 15. Among the Italians it’s basically just Pellegrino and maybe Barp that could be up there. So all in all what the men’s field was missing are those 4 I mentioned, Perttu Hyvarinen and then a couple of Norwegians from what’s been the norm since Russia got banned.

As was mentioned, the fact that Jouve was so high up and likewise Altimiras (I know he’s had some solid results in the past, but most of that is in skating) is telling me the competition is weak.

Niskanen hasn’t had much too celebrate since the 2022 season, and Poromaa hasn’t exactly lit the trails on fire since Planica.

When I see guys like Mika Vermeulen being one of the top distance skiers, that tells me a lot.
 
But it’s not even the Russians, it’s a number of factors: calendar, money, lack of interest, lack of development.

Italy didn’t compete in Les Rousses. Norway had their nationals the same weekend, only one Asian skier took part (Wang), no Kazakhs, no Poles, not many Czechs, no Slovaks (basically only a few skiers from Eastern Europe) , the Swiss didn’t have a full team, Austria as per usual had only a couple skiers…

There were only 36 skiers in the final result in the women’s race…
It's also just before the U23 Worlds and clashing with the Universiade. While there aren't many strong competitors in the Universiade these days, there are a few who've been seen on the World Cup at times even if not major factors, especially among the women.
 
It's also just before the U23 Worlds and clashing with the Universiade. While there aren't many strong competitors in the Universiade these days, there are a few who've been seen on the World Cup at times even if not major factors, especially among the women.

Izabela Marcisz is the strongest skier at the Universiade and she’s been almost nonexistent as far as results on the World Cup are concerned, and she had great junior and u23 results. Monika Skinder, another Pole that had so much promise, has been an even bigger disappointment.

I looked at the results at those university races and only a couple skiers have actually raced the World Cup. So that has no influence on the field in La Clusaz.
 
Izabela Marcisz is the strongest skier at the Universiade and she’s been almost nonexistent as far as results on the World Cup are concerned, and she had great junior and u23 results. Monika Skinder, another Pole that had so much promise, has been an even bigger disappointment.

I looked at the results at those university races and only a couple skiers have actually raced the World Cup. So that has no influence on the field in La Clusaz.
It's more just field size than whether there are any athletes whose absence would be felt. After all it's better for a lot of smaller teams with mediocre athletes to see if they can get a medal against weak fields than be also rans on the World Cup. A few from last Universiade have gone on to be WC semi-regulars, like Jaume Pueyo and Ryo Hirose. The proximity of the U23 Worlds is the bigger factor, but there are nevertheless a few pack fodder World Cup athletes in Italy atm, like Marcisz and the Kaasiku twins.
 
It's more just field size than whether there are any athletes whose absence would be felt. After all it's better for a lot of smaller teams with mediocre athletes to see if they can get a medal against weak fields than be also rans on the World Cup. A few from last Universiade have gone on to be WC semi-regulars, like Jaume Pueyo and Ryo Hirose. The proximity of the U23 Worlds is the bigger factor, but there are nevertheless a few pack fodder World Cup athletes in Italy atm, like Marcisz and the Kaasiku twins.

But that’s not the way it should be. Simply earning results, points and money when others aren’t there isn’t the same as doing so when the field is packed.

And I’ll go ahead and say that had the Russians been at the World Cup the last 2, 3 seasons, quite a few ‘fodder’ wouldn’t have the results and publicity that they’ve been getting. That’s pretty obvious, even to the Scandinavian lobby that’s currently dominating FIS.
 
As was mentioned, the fact that Jouve was so high up and likewise Altimiras (I know he’s had some solid results in the past, but most of that is in skating) is telling me the competition is weak.
In mass start races there are often one or two random guys high up that really shouldn’t be there based on the “normal results”. I remember a classic mass start Bolshunov won in Val Mustair a couple of years ago where Oskar Svensson was like 5th and Altemiras was in the top 10. Guys at this level sometimes have great races and are suddenly mixing it up close to the top 10.

I don’t know if I really agree with your take on Niskanen. The 22/23 season he struggled, but the last two seasons he looked good in the classic races and had good results. I don’t think there is any strong arguments to believe that he is that much weaker than before.

And I don’t understand why you always so negative to Vermeulen and talks about him like a joke. His improvement over the last years have been impressive and he is a legit strong skier now. The fact he did Nordic combined until he was 19 is obviously a big factor for lack of top results at young age, but I don’t see anything wrong with him being among the better skiers.

In general I think the Norwegian men are a great measurement for level. Everyone that can mix it up with the Norwegians are great skiers. The Norwegians got smashed by Bokshunov and the Russians at the 2022 Olympics, but it’s important to remember that that wasn’t the normal way before the ban. Look at the WC in 2021 for example. 5 Norwegians top 6 in Skiathlon and 5 Norwegians top 7 in 15k and 3 Norwegians in the top 4 (+ Klæbo dsq) in the 50k. At the time Russians got kicked out of the WC there were 3 Norwegians in top 5 of WC Overall + Bolshunov and Niskanen. I don’t think anything points towards the Norwegians being weaker now than in the years before the Russian ban and they should be a great measurement.
But of course, what is a 10 th place today would’ve probably be a 15th if the Russians were here. But I don’t buy that a 4th now would mean a 10th with the Russians on start.

When Vermeulen is constantly in between a podium and a top 10 I think it’s obvious that he still would have a lot of good results also with the Russians. It was only really Bolshunov that was always extremely good (Ustiugov not the same guy those last years before the Russian ban as 6-7 years ago). A guy like Spitsov have only 2 podiums in WC if we remove Alpe Cermis. Chervotkin had 4 podiums and Yakimushkin 5. And a lot of these podiums came in that Tour de Ski Norway skipped. The Russians were really good of course, but it’s not like they totally dominated as one might remember it like.

8th for Jonas Baumann was his best ever result as well. And he is in his mid 30s
Equal career best. He’s got an 8th also from 2015. Baumann is one of those guys that have a lot of results between 15 and 25 over the years, and then it’s not a big surprise that this turns into a top 10 a couple of times during the career.
 
In mass start races there are often one or two random guys high up that really shouldn’t be there based on the “normal results”. I remember a classic mass start Bolshunov won in Val Mustair a couple of years ago where Oskar Svensson was like 5th and Altemiras was in the top 10. Guys at this level sometimes have great races and are suddenly mixing it up close to the top 10.

I don’t know if I really agree with your take on Niskanen. The 22/23 season he struggled, but the last two seasons he looked good in the classic races and had good results. I don’t think there is any strong arguments to believe that he is that much weaker than before.

And I don’t understand why you always so negative to Vermeulen and talks about him like a joke. His improvement over the last years have been impressive and he is a legit strong skier now. The fact he did Nordic combined until he was 19 is obviously a big factor for lack of top results at young age, but I don’t see anything wrong with him being among the better skiers.

In general I think the Norwegian men are a great measurement for level. Everyone that can mix it up with the Norwegians are great skiers. The Norwegians got smashed by Bokshunov and the Russians at the 2022 Olympics, but it’s important to remember that that wasn’t the normal way before the ban. Look at the WC in 2021 for example. 5 Norwegians top 6 in Skiathlon and 5 Norwegians top 7 in 15k and 3 Norwegians in the top 4 (+ Klæbo dsq) in the 50k. At the time Russians got kicked out of the WC there were 3 Norwegians in top 5 of WC Overall + Bolshunov and Niskanen. I don’t think anything points towards the Norwegians being weaker now than in the years before the Russian ban and they should be a great measurement.
But of course, what is a 10 th place today would’ve probably be a 15th if the Russians were here. But I don’t buy that a 4th now would mean a 10th with the Russians on start.

When Vermeulen is constantly in between a podium and a top 10 I think it’s obvious that he still would have a lot of good results also with the Russians. It was only really Bolshunov that was always extremely good (Ustiugov not the same guy those last years before the Russian ban as 6-7 years ago). A guy like Spitsov have only 2 podiums in WC if we remove Alpe Cermis. Chervotkin had 4 podiums and Yakimushkin 5. And a lot of these podiums came in that Tour de Ski Norway skipped. The Russians were really good of course, but it’s not like they totally dominated as one might remember it like.


Equal career best. He’s got an 8th also from 2015. Baumann is one of those guys that have a lot of results between 15 and 25 over the years, and then it’s not a big surprise that this turns into a top 10 a couple of times during the career.

The 2021 WSC the Russians were not in form. Including Bolshunov. They over raced, while the Norwegians stayed at home after Ruka. They benefited in 2022 with the cancellation of Les Rousses and Planica, plus they planned better, stayed in different spots for pre Olympic preparations and the selection process was better than previous years. Markus Cramer alluded to this in a recent interview with Hans og Holund.

I am not gonna go into details on Vermeulen.
 
The 2021 WSC the Russians were not in form. Including Bolshunov. They over raced, while the Norwegians stayed at home after Ruka. They benefited in 2022 with the cancellation of Les Rousses and Planica, plus they planned better, stayed in different spots for pre Olympic preparations and the selection process was better than previous years.
This way one can also say that one shouldnt look too much into 2022 Olympics because the Norwegians blew it with the lack of altitude training (except Klæbo) and Krüger got Covid...

I dont think there is any reason to say Bolshunov wasnt in form in 2021 WSC, the way he won the 30k was impressive, he was probably the strongest in the 50k and he got beaten in the 15k by great skaters and his own bad pacing strategy. 4th in the sprint and his showing in the two relays also doesnt fit with "not in form" and a week after the WSC he was also superb at the 15k in Engadin. The rest of the russians werent that bad either, for example Maltsev was definitively not far away from his top form, he did a very good 15k.

In general, if we are looking at the time since the Russian generation with Bolshunov came up and until the ban we have 5 seasons with 2 Olympic Games and 2 WSC. Norway won 3 Championship relays, Russia 1. Klæbo won 3 overall WC, Bolshunov 2. Norway had 8 overall podiums, Russia 4. In those 4 Championships only looking at the distance races Norway won 6 gold and 18 medals, Russia won 3 gold and 13 medals. With sprint races included the difference would be much bigger of course, as Klæbo won all sprints and sprintrelays. Over that period of 5 years Norway were generally better than Russia. The only thing where Russia clearly were better is that Bolshunov was the best distance in the World in this period, and likely would've continued with that. But in general, when one is looking at the level in the World Cup races nowadays, one can be pretty confident that the level of the 2-3 best Norwegians in every single WC race is high and any skier that are mixing it up with the Norwegians in these races are very good and could very well also beat every Russian skier bar Bolshunov on the right day.


I am not gonna go into details on Vermeulen.
Well, it's a bit of a pathetic the way you talk about him in my eyes. Sometimes you have hinted towards a parallell to Dürr and other times you make fun of him being good showing the level is bad. That doesnt make any sense at all, because if he's a new Dürr he should definitively not be used as an example of why the level is bad.

Feel free to "go into details on Vermeulen" here: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/doping-in-xc-skiing.10911/
 
This way one can also say that one shouldnt look too much into 2022 Olympics because the Norwegians blew it with the lack of altitude training (except Klæbo) and Krüger got Covid...

I dont think there is any reason to say Bolshunov wasnt in form in 2021 WSC, the way he won the 30k was impressive, he was probably the strongest in the 50k and he got beaten in the 15k by great skaters and his own bad pacing strategy. 4th in the sprint and his showing in the two relays also doesnt fit with "not in form" and a week after the WSC he was also superb at the 15k in Engadin. The rest of the russians werent that bad either, for example Maltsev was definitively not far away from his top form, he did a very good 15k.

In general, if we are looking at the time since the Russian generation with Bolshunov came up and until the ban we have 5 seasons with 2 Olympic Games and 2 WSC. Norway won 3 Championship relays, Russia 1. Klæbo won 3 overall WC, Bolshunov 2. Norway had 8 overall podiums, Russia 4. In those 4 Championships only looking at the distance races Norway won 6 gold and 18 medals, Russia won 3 gold and 13 medals. With sprint races included the difference would be much bigger of course, as Klæbo won all sprints and sprintrelays. Over that period of 5 years Norway were generally better than Russia. The only thing where Russia clearly were better is that Bolshunov was the best distance in the World in this period, and likely would've continued with that. But in general, when one is looking at the level in the World Cup races nowadays, one can be pretty confident that the level of the 2-3 best Norwegians in every single WC race is high and any skier that are mixing it up with the Norwegians in these races are very good and could very well also beat every Russian skier bar Bolshunov on the right day.



Well, it's a bit of a pathetic the way you talk about him in my eyes. Sometimes you have hinted towards a parallell to Dürr and other times you make fun of him being good showing the level is bad. That doesnt make any sense at all, because if he's a new Dürr he should definitively not be used as an example of why the level is bad.

Feel free to "go into details on Vermeulen" here: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/doping-in-xc-skiing.10911/

It’s ok. You have your preferences, I have mine. Cherry pick circumstances and situations all you want.
 
Haha you got to be kidding me. Im the one looking on the overview of 5 seasons, you're the one dismissing one Championship and then you call me the cherrypicker.

Two can play that game. You mention the covid issues for Norway in 2022. Ok, Stupak had Covid twice in 2021/2022, one in August and one in January, just before the Beijing Olympics. Ustiugov had a nasty bout of Covid from late October 2020 at a training camp in Ramsau to basically Christmas 2020. In pre Oberstdorf time trials, just a week before the worlds, he fell and injured a leg. He almost didn’t race the sprint, yet made the final and finished 5th, with one healthy leg and 2 months of basically no training due to Covid. Spitsov also fell in the time trial and missed the rest of the season.

Nepryaeva fell in the Falun 10km skate and broke her hand. She still came back and helped the Russians to 2nd in Oberstdorf. We saw what happened the following season when she was healthy and in better shape.

Bolshunov, Yakimushkin, Chervotkin, Belov, Retyvikh were all in better form before Germany.

Bolshunov peaked in Falun, where he won both distance races and caught Klæbo who started 1 minute ahead of him in the individual skate race, plus fell in the mass start classic but caught up, went to the front, and attacked late in the race.

He definitely wasn’t in top form in Germany.
 
Talking about cherry picking and then bringing in women in a discussion that previously were only about the men.

It’s really funny that you say “two can play that game” like it was me who started it :tearsofjoy: In case you forgot, you started talking about the circumstances with bringing up Russians out of form at WSC in Oberstdorf and that’s when I replied that a similar argument could be used for the Norwegians in 2022.

The facts are pretty simple, the Russians smashed the Norwegians in Beijing, but over the 5 seasons (17/18 to 21/22) leading up to the Russian ban after the invasion of Ukraine the Norwegians have generally been the better team on the men’s side. You need to do a lot of cherry picking to make it look different.
 
Talking about cherry picking and then bringing in women in a discussion that previously were only about the men.

It’s really funny that you say “two can play that game” like it was me who started it :tearsofjoy: In case you forgot, you started talking about the circumstances with bringing up Russians out of form at WSC in Oberstdorf and that’s when I replied that a similar argument could be used for the Norwegians in 2022.

The facts are pretty simple, the Russians smashed the Norwegians in Beijing, but over the 5 seasons (17/18 to 21/22) leading up to the Russian ban after the invasion of Ukraine the Norwegians have generally been the better team on the men’s side. You need to do a lot of cherry picking to make it look different.

In 2018 the Russians didn’t have a full squad. The old guard (and Ustiugov) were politically banned and it was up to 21, 22 year olds to fill the gap, and they did admirably, getting 8 medals.

Same thing in 2017, Ustiugov won 2 golds and 5 overall medals. He single-handedly kept Norway from making a mockery of the championship in the men’s side

I’ll give you 2019. The Russians made a whole host of tactical errors both during the season and Seefeld. They lost the TDS and overall World Cup basically in the Val Di Fiemme 15km.
 
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Tatarstan (Russian Republic) has incredible skiers right now. I would even argue that they could easily win at least the medal if not the silver at the Worlds this year alone - Volkov, Gorbunov, Adrdashev and the best young Russian Korostelev. It's such a shame we don't see them in the World Cup right now.