Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Re:

python said:
^^i know you discovered this thread recently, bf22, but if you page back some years, you will find out that i've been keeping an eye (and posting on) the ustiougov's huge talent for a while. yep, i am all too familiar with his youth and u23 world titles, the caution i was typically applying to him had to do with some ups and downs once he started racing full time wc... regarding his talent compared to cologna and northug and legkov (i dont recall she ever mentioned sundby), i believe knaute put it even in more definitive terms, 'the most talented russian she knew and given more by the nature' than those named. she certainly knows the swiss and russian kitchen (legkov was hers and reto's client untill recently) to pass a judgement on cologna and legkov. and she had been around the sport long enough to know the insider on the norwegians. things like the actual vo2 max etc.

manificat is not only an excellent skater, but imo one of the most elegant and a candy to watch. belov's problems at the tds according to some stuff i heard were not just his skis but some health issues too...
Yep. Agreed. I have to admit, I have to be careful, most people here seemed quite informed about skiing and biathlon!
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
Kokoso said:
Schempp isn't going straight from ilness, races mass start at Ruhpolding already. Christmas is almost month ago now.
Why so serious?
I find nothing serious about competing in mass start or Christmas moth ago.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Cance > TheRest said:
One of the best pursuits of the Biathlon WC season just finished. Incredible to see Johannes outski Fourcade on the last loop despite 450 extra meters in the legs. Also, congratulations to Shipulin for winning. I hope he's on a roll now - really a cool russian biathlete, who I'd like to see more top level consistency from.
On the other hand, Martin was 28th on the start. That's even more impressive. The way he catched brothers and left Tarjei behind was thing of beauty.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Cance > TheRest said:
One of the best pursuits of the Biathlon WC season just finished. Incredible to see Johannes outski Fourcade on the last loop despite 450 extra meters in the legs. Also, congratulations to Shipulin for winning. I hope he's on a roll now - really a cool russian biathlete, who I'd like to see more top level consistency from.
On the other hand, Martin was 28th on the start. That's even more impressive. The way he catched brothers and left Tarjei behind was thing of beauty.
I don't disagree that Martin having the fastest isolated pursuit time isn't impressive, but the gap of 1.09 that he had to close on Schempp was not impossibly big. That sort of comeback from a bad position around 30th had been done tons of times in the history of biathlon.
Also, for tactical reasons it is clear that Johannes didn't go all out when Fourcade caught him and Tarjei on lap 4 - Johannes was only 16th fastest on lap 4. Fourcade, on the other hand, was desperate to catch them before the shooting if he was to have any chance of the podium.
Anyway, kudos for shooting 20/20 - not many managed that and it's certainly harder in that altitude. He could have waited one single day to cut his beard though :).
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Cance > TheRest said:
I don't disagree that Martin having the fastest isolated pursuit time isn't impressive, but the gap of 1.09 that he had to close on Schempp was not impossibly big. That sort of comeback from a bad position around 30th had been done tons of times in the history of biathlon.
Also, for tactical reasons it is clear that Johannes didn't go all out when Fourcade caught him and Tarjei on lap 4 - Johannes was only 16th fastest on lap 4. Fourcade, on the other hand, was desperate to catch them before the shooting if he was to have any chance of the podium.
Anyway, kudos for shooting 20/20 - not many managed that and it's certainly harder in that altitude. He could have waited one single day to cut his beard though :).
Gap over one minute is very big gap to close purely by running on 12,5 kilometres. On the other hand Johannes gap of 21 second isn't impossible. You can argue that Johannes either spared powers on lap 4, or began too fast and couldn't maintain the tempo, we have seen that before quite often with Johannes.
I don't think altitude plays big role. It's 1600, or 1650 metres, not Everest.
 
Schempp wasn't all that good yesterday on the skis, he was only 21st fastest, he'd normally be notably better than that. He gave up on chasing Shipulin very quickly as well. Garanichev was the fastest skier, which I didn't expect, with Johannes Bø 2nd and Martin Fourcade 3rd. Tarjei was 30th fastest, so pretty pedestrian by his standards. Fourcade caught 38 seconds on Schempp on the skis, plus Schempp of course had 1 penalty.

However, the flat trails at Antholz mean the ski times are very compressed, as you can see as Fourcade is 38 seconds faster than Schempp but there are 17 athletes in between them. Range time becomes pretty important here, and Fourcade's not one of the best for that, mainly in prone (he's very quick in standing). They're both much of a muchness yesterday (Schempp 0,1 seconds faster, but neither fast) whereas Johannes gained 14" on them there, but paid for it with the extra misses.

You could make a case for the most impressive guy yesterday being Anton Babikov, who started 3 places behind Fourcade in 31st, and finished 3 places behind him in 7th, hitting 19/20. He had a career-best 6th course time (faster than Shipulin, although he did ease up a bit to celebrate) and only Simon Eder was faster in the range, which is no shame cos Simon Eder's almost always the fastest in the range.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i guess only a xc skiing edict like myself would watch the ladies relay, but i did. only the us 2nd and some kalla's accelerations in the 2nd leg were worthy any attention...

the real action awaits us in just over 1/2 hour. some verrry interesting combinations are going to start...sundby for norway 1 will be in the 2nd classic leg against...legkov. the skating supremo manificat will run 2nd classic for france and the sprint king pellegino will be the finisher for italy. i am surprised NOT to find harvey listed for canada b/c yesterday he seemed fine. russia 1 placing the youngster chervotkin in the 3d typically legkov's leg is going to be very interesting. the tactic seems to count on a break away uphill which i saw him literally flying over with the cadence that even johaug would envy :) ustiugov against krogh in the last leg will be a principal battle i dare not to predict...
 
Re:

python said:
i guess only a xc skiing edict like myself would watch the ladies relay, but i did. only the us 2nd and some kalla's accelerations in the 2nd leg were worthy any attention...

the real action awaits us in just over 1/2 hour. some verrry interesting combinations are going to start...sundby for norway 1 will be in the 2nd classic leg against...legkov. the skating supremo manificat will run 2nd classic for france and the sprint king pellegino will be the finisher for italy. i am surprised NOT to find harvey listed for canada b/c yesterday he seemed fine. russia 1 placing the youngster chervotkin in the 3d typically legkov's leg is going to be very interesting. the tactic seems to count on a break away uphill which i saw him literally flying over with the cadence that even johaug would envy :) ustiugov against krogh in the last leg will be a principal battle i dare not to predict...
Did you catch the Swedes and Germans go the wrong way in the 4th leg?? Instead of turning left, they kept skiing. Luckily for them, it wasn't for the medals and they didn't get passed.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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BullsFan22 said:
python said:
i guess only a xc skiing edict like myself would watch the ladies relay, but i did. only the us 2nd and some kalla's accelerations in the 2nd leg were worthy any attention...

the real action awaits us in just over 1/2 hour. some verrry interesting combinations are going to start...sundby for norway 1 will be in the 2nd classic leg against...legkov. the skating supremo manificat will run 2nd classic for france and the sprint king pellegino will be the finisher for italy. i am surprised NOT to find harvey listed for canada b/c yesterday he seemed fine. russia 1 placing the youngster chervotkin in the 3d typically legkov's leg is going to be very interesting. the tactic seems to count on a break away uphill which i saw him literally flying over with the cadence that even johaug would envy :) ustiugov against krogh in the last leg will be a principal battle i dare not to predict...
Did you catch the Swedes and Germans go the wrong way in the 4th leg?? Instead of turning left, they kept skiing. Luckily for them, it wasn't for the medals and they didn't get passed.
i did and told myself, 'how many laps do the girls need to circle to learn they are on the lap'..that said, i knew one chap who could get lost in central park going a 6 mile lap despite doing it for years...

..the action is heating up w/belov and roethe putting the pressure on. i guess this explains sundby is the 2nd classic b/c they knew that belov is likely to create a gap against roethe...
 
Sep 25, 2009
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if sundby gaps 30 sec on legkov, i'd say it will be close to impossible to close...so far it's 'only' 17 with 2.5 km to go
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Cance > TheRest said:
I don't disagree that Martin having the fastest isolated pursuit time isn't impressive, but the gap of 1.09 that he had to close on Schempp was not impossibly big. That sort of comeback from a bad position around 30th had been done tons of times in the history of biathlon.
Also, for tactical reasons it is clear that Johannes didn't go all out when Fourcade caught him and Tarjei on lap 4 - Johannes was only 16th fastest on lap 4. Fourcade, on the other hand, was desperate to catch them before the shooting if he was to have any chance of the podium.
Anyway, kudos for shooting 20/20 - not many managed that and it's certainly harder in that altitude. He could have waited one single day to cut his beard though :).
Gap over one minute is very big gap to close purely by running on 12,5 kilometres. On the other hand Johannes gap of 21 second isn't impossible. You can argue that Johannes either spared powers on lap 4, or began too fast and couldn't maintain the tempo, we have seen that before quite often with Johannes.
I don't think altitude plays big role. It's 1600, or 1650 metres, not Everest.
He dropped Fourcade on the last lap. Isn't that the definitive argument? :rolleyes:

Also, it is true that a 1 minute gap is hard to close ... if it was a cross country competition. This is biathlon, my friend ;)
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i don't know what to say....to take 25 seconds out of krogh in a frecking 7.5 km can mean only 1 of 2 things: it wasn't a krogh's day (which i see no evidence for) or a new monster has stepped on the scene that the norwegians should fear. also, the chervotkin leg was ok, but if he performed to 90% of his expectation (i mean my expectation), the winner would be different.
 
Re:

python said:
i don't know what to say....to take 25 seconds out of krogh in a frecking 7.5 km can mean only 1 of 2 things: it wasn't a krogh's day (which i see no evidence for) or a new monster has stepped on the scene that the norwegians should fear. also, the chervotkin leg was ok, but if he performed to 90% of his expectation (i mean my expectation), the winner would be different.
Krogh looked gassed at the finish. It seems like the snow was soft and slow, and the course was tough. Nobody looked like the usual spark we see, certainly in the skate legs. You have to ski smooth and not overdue it. To me it seemed like Krogh was calculating. Ustiugov was obviously better, but he had to go from the start. I don't know what to make of it. For the sake of excitement, I'll say Ustiugov was really good and Krogh was getting nervous, but in all likelihood, Krogh was in 'control.' Not too many gaps were created, in all honesty, except Sundby who impressively double poled. It's hard to create gaps in slow, mushy, snow. Ustiugov is really turning into being the leader in the Russian team. Not sure how old guys like Legkov and Vylegzhanin feel about that. I though Legkov had a decent race. I thought he would try to go with Sundby, but perhaps wisely, chose not too. Or he underestimated himself. Funny how the most experienced and most successful guy on the team gave away the most today, despite, as I said, having a decent race.

I thought the French would try and do something to offset Pellegrino's sprint, but surprisingly didn't, or couldn't. So too Gloeersen.
 
Sundby said on TV that his race today was some of the most awesome stuff he had ever done over 7.5km on two skis. Very happy indeed. He also said that he was surprised that so many chose to use wax/klister today as the course only demanded a couple of hundred meters using that kickwax, and the wax/klister really slowed down the skis today.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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i'll admit that in my not very long time of following biathlon, i have not seen a more consistent relay finisher than shipulin ...is there any and who would that be ?
 
In terms of killer instinct, there's nobody better than Anton Shipulin. Obviously Martin Fourcade is Martin Fourcade, and that automatically makes him one of the best anchors possible, but Shipulin just has a great tactical mind for those final laps. A few years ago you could have made a case for Svendsen, but he seems to have been hit psychologically by his Sochi lacuna. In a final 100m sprint, probably Dominik Landertinger is the best, but the Austrians aren't always in the position to use that for the win. For the most part there aren't too many relay anchors that you'll see that much of in the men's races, there's usually only Norway, Germany, Austria, France, Russia and occasionally the Czech Republic mixing it up for the wins, and most of those have pretty much settled on who their anchorman is over the last couple of years. Therefore we don't really know, there could be an absolute killer instinct in a final lap from, say, Jakov Fak or Andrejs Rastorgujevs, they just never get to be there. Over a final kilometre in a head to head, you'd want Shipulin on your side from those we see, in my opinion, though.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
In terms of killer instinct, there's nobody better than Anton Shipulin. Obviously Martin Fourcade is Martin Fourcade, and that automatically makes him one of the best anchors possible, but Shipulin just has a great tactical mind for those final laps. A few years ago you could have made a case for Svendsen, but he seems to have been hit psychologically by his Sochi lacuna. In a final 100m sprint, probably Dominik Landertinger is the best, but the Austrians aren't always in the position to use that for the win. For the most part there aren't too many relay anchors that you'll see that much of in the men's races, there's usually only Norway, Germany, Austria, France, Russia and occasionally the Czech Republic mixing it up for the wins, and most of those have pretty much settled on who their anchorman is over the last couple of years. Therefore we don't really know, there could be an absolute killer instinct in a final lap from, say, Jakov Fak or Andrejs Rastorgujevs, they just never get to be there. Over a final kilometre in a head to head, you'd want Shipulin on your side from those we see, in my opinion, though.
In the last 3 seasons, Shipulin has gone against Bjoerndalen, Schempp (quite a few times), Fourcade, both Boe brothers, and Svendsen in the final lap of mass starts, relays and pursuits, and hasn't lost. Sochi he beat Schempp in the relay, last year he beat Schempp in the Oslo relay, and again he beats Schempp in a sprint today. Yesterday wasn't a sprint to the line, he left the range with few seconds lead, but I seriously doubt that Schempp would have beaten him had it come down to a sprint.

Here is Shipulin going up against Nikita Kriukov in a show race earlier this winter, Shipulin is the one on the left, in the darker suit.

https://www.instagram.com/p/9gDjaik6z5/?taken-by=nikita_kriukov
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Cance > TheRest said:
Kokoso said:
Cance > TheRest said:
I don't disagree that Martin having the fastest isolated pursuit time isn't impressive, but the gap of 1.09 that he had to close on Schempp was not impossibly big. That sort of comeback from a bad position around 30th had been done tons of times in the history of biathlon.
Also, for tactical reasons it is clear that Johannes didn't go all out when Fourcade caught him and Tarjei on lap 4 - Johannes was only 16th fastest on lap 4. Fourcade, on the other hand, was desperate to catch them before the shooting if he was to have any chance of the podium.
Anyway, kudos for shooting 20/20 - not many managed that and it's certainly harder in that altitude. He could have waited one single day to cut his beard though :).
Gap over one minute is very big gap to close purely by running on 12,5 kilometres. On the other hand Johannes gap of 21 second isn't impossible. You can argue that Johannes either spared powers on lap 4, or began too fast and couldn't maintain the tempo, we have seen that before quite often with Johannes.
I don't think altitude plays big role. It's 1600, or 1650 metres, not Everest.
He dropped Fourcade on the last lap. Isn't that the definitive argument? :rolleyes:

Also, it is true that a 1 minute gap is hard to close ... if it was a cross country competition. This is biathlon, my friend ;)
I'm aware of that, that's why I made the remark "purely by running". Fourcade had to fly to catch them so he could be done in last lap.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Cance > TheRest said:
Kokoso said:
Cance > TheRest said:
I don't disagree that Martin having the fastest isolated pursuit time isn't impressive, but the gap of 1.09 that he had to close on Schempp was not impossibly big. That sort of comeback from a bad position around 30th had been done tons of times in the history of biathlon.
Also, for tactical reasons it is clear that Johannes didn't go all out when Fourcade caught him and Tarjei on lap 4 - Johannes was only 16th fastest on lap 4. Fourcade, on the other hand, was desperate to catch them before the shooting if he was to have any chance of the podium.
Anyway, kudos for shooting 20/20 - not many managed that and it's certainly harder in that altitude. He could have waited one single day to cut his beard though :).
Gap over one minute is very big gap to close purely by running on 12,5 kilometres. On the other hand Johannes gap of 21 second isn't impossible. You can argue that Johannes either spared powers on lap 4, or began too fast and couldn't maintain the tempo, we have seen that before quite often with Johannes.
I don't think altitude plays big role. It's 1600, or 1650 metres, not Everest.
He dropped Fourcade on the last lap. Isn't that the definitive argument? :rolleyes:

Also, it is true that a 1 minute gap is hard to close ... if it was a cross country competition. This is biathlon, my friend ;)
I'm aware of that, that's why I made the remark "purely by running". Fourcade had to fly to catch them so he could be done in last lap.
And the fact is that Fourcade shot clean, while everybody else didn't. That means he didn't catch 1 minute "purely by running", but because the others had to go penalty loops. Anyway, as I said, it was impressive that he shot 20/20, since it was what allowed him to improve his position.
 
I actually found it a bit annoying when Fourcade mentioned in the press conference after the pursuit that he lacked power compared to Johannes because he had to chase from the very start to move up the rankings. Johannes had 3 misses, that's similar time to chase and besides 450m more to ski.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re:

TomasC said:
I actually found it a bit annoying when Fourcade mentioned in the press conference after the pursuit that he lacked power compared to Johannes because he had to chase from the very start to move up the rankings. Johannes had 3 misses, that's similar time to chase and besides 450m more to ski.
450m more to ski on the flat. Fourcade had to chase that time mostly uphill and that's more demanding, so what he said makes sense actually.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
TomasC said:
I actually found it a bit annoying when Fourcade mentioned in the press conference after the pursuit that he lacked power compared to Johannes because he had to chase from the very start to move up the rankings. Johannes had 3 misses, that's similar time to chase and besides 450m more to ski.
450m more to ski on the flat. Fourcade had to chase that time mostly uphill and that's more demanding, so what he said makes sense actually.
:rolleyes: :confused:
You beat us, Kokoso. No comeback from that argument. Ofcouse running 12.5 km is tougher than running 12.95 km. Joke aside, you do realise that all the other athletes had to run the same course as Fourcade, right? They also had to climb the same ascents as Fourcade. Why would that make it tougher for Fourcade then? I'm just wondering, cause you seem to have a very funny logic :confused:
 

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