Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[KZD]

After Doll had his revenge in Thursday's sprint, Johannes Boe won again in today's pursuit while Martin Fourcade continues below his best level. The all Norwegian team is really strong this season, Echkoff won again yesterday and Tandrevold is the new yellow bib.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Wierer is still 8 points up on Tandrevold, though obviously Wierer starting 21st and Tandrevold 6th today means it is highly likely the latter will take the yellow today.

 

[BullsFan22]

Such a shame to see a beautiful venue like Planica and the beautiful surroundings reduced to fog/rain turned to hail (and even lightning??) and the only snow an ice patch called the course. I've skied and raced there before, and watched the races online in 2016, 2018 and today, and I've never seen so little snow there. It's quite depressing to see grass this time of year in the Alps. Same goes for Le Grand Bornard/Annecy for the Biathlon races this week.

The shortage of snow made the course quite narrow. That, for me, wasn't cross country skiing. Not nice to watch.

I hope next time Planica is visited there's plenty of snow and the course much more skiable and they use something different.

 

[DenisMenchov]

I couldn't even watch the Planica sprint. It felt so weird. Even worse than this year's (?!) event in Dresden.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

They had to cancel the Mixed Relay at the IBU Cup in Obertilliach too due to only being able to secure the course for the Single Mixed Relay - the sprint events yesterday descended into farce as the conditions got progressively worse. Luckily it wasn't quite so bad in the World Cup with one race each day, so the women weren't skiing on trails that were already destroyed from the men's race earlier. However, heavy snowfall was the problem there, similar to in the Nordic Combined in Ramsau, which was likewise seeing athletes stomping through a mountain of fresh snow (plus it also led to a more interesting race than most that we've seen recently, with Riiber put under pressure and eventually defeated by Vinzenz Geiger, and the as-yet-not-at-their-best Germans putting 3 in the top 4).

To be fair, though, with both venues (less so Obertilliach as that's at a reasonably high altitude), there is history for this. This is the hardest part of the season to secure and that's why they tend to go for high altitude venues and Scandinavian ones in the XC World Cup. In 2011 Le Grand Bornand was supposed to join the World Cup calendar in this exact calendar spot, but had to cancel due to lack of snow, leading to Hochfilzen hosting two weeks back to back. They have run in a mid-late December spot successfully in 2013 and 2017, while we've seen worse conditions dealt with at Oberhof and Nové Mesto before too with lack of snow (plus the Pyeongchang World Championships in 2009). As for Planica, I've not seen it like this for an actual event, however I went to the IBU World Cup in Pokljuka in 2015, and we took a trip on a non-competition day to Planica, which was in this calendar slot (16-20 December), and there was no snow in sight - Pokljuka had enough snow, just about, because Pokljuka is up at around 13-1400m, but Planica was entirely barren of snow and pretty much all snow that they had in Gorenje at that point in time was being used to either keep the IBU World Cup in Pokljuka running or to keep at least some runs at Kranjska Góra open.

 

[zarnack]

Yeah, in both biathlon and XC the conditions were warm today and no snow outside the prepared tracks. Well, it's not going to get any better in future seasons with the climate, so they have to think hard about Alps races in December. Nordic countries have already good winter in December, but central Europe not so much (depending on region and altitude though). Guess, how will Tour de Ski be affected?

About the actual events. Well, it looks like Norway is trying to take over biathlon too. 1-2 in women's race despite missing Röiseland. 3 convincing wins in a row for Eckhoff. Where did that come from? It's already her career-best season as her previous best was 2 wins in one season.

In men's race JT.Bö could make up a whole penalty loop's worth of time within one 2.5km lap. The whole top 12 locked out by Norwegians, French and Germans. They really got hold on the competition, while other countries rely on 1-2 athletes to deliver the goods. It looks like the best days of Austrian team are behind too with their team aging - only Leitner is the future prospect there.

In XC sprints so many accidents particularly in women races. Kern's 3rd place came out of nowhere. In men it was an opportunity for others to win as Kläbo was not present. Wonder, how much of a lottery tomorrow's team sprints will be due to conditions?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To be fair, Eckhoff consistently winning is more because she's shot well three times, because she's continued to be among the quickest as she has been for several years, stepping forward to win or podium when she shoots right. Tandrevold, well, she was seen as a potential superstar from her junior years, and the European Championships where she was winning senior medals as a teenager. I'm not surprised she's got this good. Eckhoff and Tandrevold are also from the same ski club (Fossum) and Tiril was a big mentor figure for Tandrevold, so they have a close friendship that means there's probably some infectious confidence going on. Tiril has been a lot more positive and outgoing since Ingrid got onto the World Cup.

As for the calendar, I think Alpine races in December, they've just got to stick to venues at altitude or slot Kontiolahti into this spot, and put an extra Alpine or Central European event in the third trimester where Kontiolahti usually goes. Move Hochfilzen to third spot - the tradition is Östersund first, then Hochfilzen, then an open spot that is rotated between multiple locations - Nové Mesto, Le Grand Bornand and Pokljuka have tended to rotate this since Osrblie came off the menu in 2008 or so. Kontiolahti tends to come at the start of the third trimester, perhaps we need to go Östersund-Kontiolahti-Hochfilzen in the opening trimester, then put Pokljuka/Annecy/NMNM in after the January trophy rounds.

 

[BullsFan22]

Yeah, in both biathlon and XC the conditions were warm today and no snow outside the prepared tracks. Well, it's not going to get any better in future seasons with the climate, so they have to think hard about Alps races in December. Nordic countries have already good winter in December, but central Europe not so much (depending on region and altitude though). Guess, how will Tour de Ski be affected?

About the actual events. Well, it looks like Norway is trying to take over biathlon too. 1-2 in women's race despite missing Röiseland. 3 convincing wins in a row for Eckhoff. Where did that come from? It's already her career-best season as her previous best was 2 wins in one season.

In men's race JT.Bö could make up a whole penalty loop's worth of time within one 2.5km lap. The whole top 12 locked out by Norwegians, French and Germans. They really got hold on the competition, while other countries rely on 1-2 athletes to deliver the goods. It looks like the best days of Austrian team are behind too with their team aging - only Leitner is the future prospect there.

In XC sprints so many accidents particularly in women races. Kern's 3rd place came out of nowhere. In men it was an opportunity for others to win as Kläbo was not present. Wonder, how much of a lottery tomorrow's team sprints will be due to conditions?

Tour de Ski will be affected. The organizers already said they had to shorten the lap from 5km to 3.75. However, I saw the forecast and it's supposed to be snowing in Lenzerheide all week, including the weekend. If it does snow all week, it'll be soft and challenging for the skiers and techs, but at least it will look like Winter. Hopefully that weather system hits the other venues as well. I hope the organizers in Lenzerheide change their minds if they get enough snow. As a spectator I'd much rather see them use the full 5km, meaning the hardest parts won't be left out. The 15km and 10km mass starts to start the tour should be interesting, but I don't get the point of a distance mass start to begin the tour. Aren't there enough contact, head to head mass start races? What happened to the prologues? What happened to the Toblach/Cortina 30-35km handicap pursuit? There's nothing left of the old schedule. There's only one individual start race at the TDS this season, that's it. Everything else is either mass start, sprint and one handicap pursuit. Clearly favors Klaebo.

Kern's race came out of nowhere, definitely. Generally, her best races have been in skate sprints, so this is her strongest suit, but she also needed fortune. In these types of conditions, the narrow course, fast snow, you need luck. In her quarter, one of the favorites, Dahlqvist fell (seemed as if Kern was perhaps partially to blame), and so did Baranova, the Czech. Then she was in the weaker semi and in the final the Swedes collided and Svahn went down. Still, i've never seen Kern ski strongly, usually her endurance is what was lacking. I guess that's changed a bit now. Still, this type of course and conditions suit her. Skate sprinting is what the Americans have excelled at for years.

Tomorrow's race will be a roller-derby. Team sprints are always dangerous and the conditions and course is just begging for crashes and broken equipment.

 

[KZD]

This was just one of the most dominant skiing performances I have ever seen in a biathlon race. Johannes Boe just demolished everyone from the start until the end. Jacquelin the best of the rest, really good skier, but almost 1min slower than Boe. Martin Fourcade losing more than one minute to Johannes Boe was something almost unthinkable a two years ago but its the reality now. Loginov is looking terrible maybe problems with racing in altitude.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This was just one of the most dominant skiing performances I have ever seen in a biathlon race. Johannes Boe just demolished everyone from the start until the end. Jacquelin the best of the rest, really good skier, but almost 1min slower than Boe. Martin Fourcade losing more than one minute to Johannes Boe was something almost unthinkable a two years ago but its the reality now. Loginov is looking terrible maybe problems with racing in altitude.

Conditions made a complete mess of the race. The Russians and Germans had atrocious skis, plus the best of the Germans, Johannes Kühn, effectively started with a 2 minute handicap. Effectively only two teams had decent skis, and they're the teams who have the best athletes, so it became very dull, and Bø has become just as boring to watch as Fourcade.

Still, it wasn't any worse than the Team Sprints in Planica - the snow conditions also made those messy, half of them were at ski tourist pace, and they may as well have dispensed with the first 4 legs altogether. I mean, periodically I get into arguments with people because I steadfastly maintain my position that the Team Sprint is a terrible format that provides a terrible spectacle and is utterly worthless. Today I don't think the format even had the chance to present its counterpoint because conditions made it impossible. I mean, it wasn't like the farce that was Seefeld with everybody stopping to look at each other at the top of the penultimate climb, rendering the rest of the race entirely pointless, but it was basically a group ski until the last part of the 5th leg both times with the trails being narrow anyway, falling snow meaning heavy going, and deep snow offline making passing moves almost impossible at all but a couple of places in the entire course.

 

[jsem94]

I thought two years ago that Fourcade would certainly beat OEB's all time world cup victories record. Now I am much less certain. I'm not even certain he'll get to 90. JTB is already 4th all time, and will surpass Poirée in a few weeks time for 3rd. The sky is the limit. I have never seen this level of dominance in biathlon ever - even when Fourcade was at his absolute peak he didn't blow up a race in this fashion.

There is no guarantee that JTB surpass OEB, but it looks a hell of a lot more probable than Fourcade doing the same in my opinion.

 

[tobydawq]

So, did Eckhoff get new contact lenses, or what has happened with her shooting?

 

[zarnack]

These biathlon mass-starts were really anti-climatic. Conditions were so tough and wet that anyone in good skiing form and good skis had a huge advantage over the field. JT.Bö and Eckhoff were never really challenged. In men's race no-one was anywhere near Norwegians and French, with the rest some good 2 minutes down. Well, these two countries don't have such a stranglehold on women's competition. But Herrmann couldn't match Eckhoff's pace at all, so maybe skis were a difference there too. Meanwhile Mäkäräinen's good skiing pace and good skis were properly advantaged, but she couldn't muster more than 4th from it.

By the way, what is the record winning streak in biathlon? Already 4 in a row for Eckhoff. I guess it's a relief for competition that now we have a bit of a break before the next world cup and everyone has an opportunity to re-charge batteries. Once the campaign re-starts in January I think the form-book could look somewhat different. Röiseland didn't race in France, while Öberg fell ill during the weekend. This may well mean that both are already out of the running for the overall cup. Although two worst scores get striked out, they can't have bad results any more.

Conditions in Planica were way different than yesterday. Lots of snowing and proper winter. Sadly it didn't mean anything good for the race as it's hard to break away from the field in deep snow. So basically it was racing only when skiers went out for the last time. Despite this spanner in the works I guess no big surprises in the end though. Swedes are overwhelming favourites among women as they have by far most depth in sprints these days, so they duly delivered. In men you wondered if Chanavat could beat Norwegians now that Kläbo was missing, but he didn't have the kind of kick today.

 

[zarnack]

I thought two years ago that Fourcade would certainly beat OEB's all time world cup victories record. Now I am much less certain. I'm not even certain he'll get to 90. JTB is already 4th all time, and will surpass Poirée in a few weeks time for 3rd. The sky is the limit. I have never seen this level of dominance in biathlon ever - even when Fourcade was at his absolute peak he didn't blow up a race in this fashion.

There is no guarantee that JTB surpass OEB, but it looks a hell of a lot more probable than Fourcade doing the same in my opinion.

Well, looks like Fourcade's best days are behind. One season could be an exception, but now it's the second season in a row he is about top 6 level. He can't touch JTBö and on pace he is mixing with his fellow countrymen instead, among who he often ends up 3rd or 4th best too.

As for whether JT.Bö could catch records, time will tell. Tide could turn suddenly if you pass your peak like Fourcade has shown. You could win loads and then you could muster maybe 1-2 wins a season. However, Johannes is currently 26-y-o, so he should have quite a fair amount of years left at a highly competitive level. He could be untouchable for another good 4-5 years, but at the moment it's better to take each year at once and look at record potential a bit later.

 

[zarnack]

I mean, periodically I get into arguments with people because I steadfastly maintain my position that the Team Sprint is a terrible format that provides a terrible spectacle and is utterly worthless.

I personally think Team Sprint is a good spectacle if the conditions are right. But that's the problem with mass-starts. If conditions are not right, they can be tedious. I mean snowfall usually ruins mass-starts. At least in team sprint the race is compressed into 15-20 minutes, so you don't have to wait for action for too long. But then look at 50 km mass-start skiing. If it is snowfall, they sit in a group for 2 hours with nothing happening. Now that sucks! Recalling things like 2005 Oberstdorf and 2015 Falun 50 km mass-starts in snowfall and I vow to never watch a mass-start marathon again if it is snowing.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The Tour de Ski is looking pretty bad and making Alpe Cermis a mass start is also a bad move.
My changes would be a 15km classic race on the Plätzwiese at 2,000m of altitude instead of Toblach followed by the awesome Cortina-Toblach pursuite. Other than that I'd keep the old format for Alpe Cermis.

 

[jsem94]

Tour de Ski is turning into more of a joke each year that passes.

 

[zarnack]

For a change some good news before Tour de Ski too. Both IF Östberg and Ebba Andersson return to competition. Their form of course an unknown. Only guideline is that in a Swedish local race yesterday Andersson beat competition by 2 minutes.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Good news, if they are in good shape.
Meanwhile Ustigov and the rest of the training group around Kramer are training here in Toblach (I also saw Ustigov in Toblach while I was on a training ride to the Tre Cime durning the Summer).
The Ski Tour in Scandinavia has a better route, I hope that someone like Niskanen hasn't peaked too early, the route would be better for him than the Tour de Ski.

 

[DenisMenchov]

I just saw that new Tour de Ski format. What a mess, I can't believe they axed the time system... For this points one, and having the winner on the Alpe Cermis get twice less points than a winner of a sprint stage is an utter stupidity...

 

[zarnack]

I personally don't like those intermediate checkpoints in mass-starts, which is nothing new though. Basically someone finishing in 10th can end up gaining most in terms of time by the end of the race. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I personally don't like those intermediate checkpoints in mass-starts, which is nothing new though. Basically someone finishing in 10th can end up gaining most in terms of time by the end of the race. Doesn't make any sense.

Yes, it's pointless.
Something else, anyone knows what has happened to Krogh?
His career went downhill durning the last 1.5 years or so.

 

[BullsFan22]

Echoing what you guys said regarding the format of the TDS. I think it's really sad what Mignerey and FIS have done over the past few seasons, not just this season with the format. I think I've already complained enough about it, so I that's all I have on that right now.

Looks like the much needed snow that the TDS venues were hoping for, did come, so the original tracks for Lenzerheide will go as planned. I think Toblach and Val Di Fiemme are safe as well, though the forecast for Val Di Fiemme (surprise, surprise) is warm and sunny.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Echoing what you guys said regarding the format of the TDS. I think it's really sad what Mignerey and FIS have done over the past few seasons, not just this season with the format. I think I've already complained enough about it, so I that's all I have on that right now.

Looks like the much needed snow that the TDS venues were hoping for, did come, so the original tracks for Lenzerheide will go as planned. I think Toblach and Val Di Fiemme are safe as well, though the forecast for Val Di Fiemme (surprise, surprise) is warm and sunny.

I can confirm, Toblach is save, you can even ski from Cortina to Toblach.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Is there an official startlist for the TdS?