Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Mayomaniac]

I dont think one can know what temperatures will be like in Februar 2006. I also dont think warmer means better racing. I think racing is best when it is Cold but not icy. Just think of Bejing. Those loops and conditions were as good as it gets for modern standards. Also, today when it is warm they use salt which means that conditions are fast.
I am absolutely appalled when I think of next years olympics. I absoluely hate the Val di Fiemme venue. 98/100 Times this venue with its loops an weather Doesn't allow anything but bunch sprint snoozefests.

Salt can't be used for every race, or you totally ruin the tracks. February at Fiemme altitude and latitude should be warm conditions.

I totally agree about the last Olympics, when the temperature gets really low the snow is no longer as "sharp", friction increases.there was also a bit of sand that came with the wind mixed in, making it even slower.

Now of course Fis and mainly the Scandinavians are really afraid of racing in actually cold conditions. -17 degrees being the limit when long distance races are raced until -25 degrees celsius is a bit of a joke, even if the intensity is lower in the later. Up to -20 should be ok.

I remember when the Pustertaler Skimarathon still went through my hometown and straight past our house, back then they often tampered with the thermometer, so that the race could still take place.

 

[BigCoward]

I don’t think it’s given at all that she wins the 10 km classic.
It’s also not given that Norway wins the relay. Svahn-Karlsson-Andersson-Sundling is on paper extremely strong.
The skiathlon course in Trondheim is not as hard as this one or the one in Lillehammer, so it’s not given that she is avle to create a gap there.

The 50k she should win, but it can possibly be the only race she wins.

On paper, not on form.

She created gaps in skiathon on everyone not called MB/JK for 10 years on easier courses.

 

[BullsFan22]

I was expecting a lot more from Niskanen. I thought that she, along with the two top Norwegians (and possibly Weng) would put the hammer down in the classic portion and basically kill off the race for both the podium today and tomorrow. As it stands, Niskanen is 40 seconds behind the actress and she’s not trending in the right direction. She put a lot out in the Toblach individual skate and handicap pursuit. If she can’t stick with the leaders in classic on a tough course, it’s not a good sign for her. She’s actually had some strong Alpe Cermis results, but she lost the podium today, IMO.

And nice to see Ebba up there, even if it’s not a podium, she’s maybe gaining form.

 

[BullsFan22]

The level in this men's Tour de Ski has been absolutely dreadful, the only guy that could give Klaebo a fight in the overall got sick and the one that could give him a fight today crashed out of contention. Pellegrino did great by finishing second but with the Russians around, he wouldn't even have been in the top10.

With some of the top guys dropping out, some simply not in form, or the likes of Krüger crashing and losing a lot, plus the Russians not there, this is the result we were going to get. There’s nobody there that’s capable of taking the race by the horns and pushing the pace for an extended period. It’s basically a free ride for wonder boy, and having the fastest pair of skis in the bunch doesn’t hurt either.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I don't think all of those races are suited to a pure distance skier because we have so many of these nothing races like the 15k in Toblach that are basically sprints after distance rather than either sprint or distance races. If 1/3 the calendar is for pure sprinters, then 1/3 of the calendar should be for pure distance skiers too.

This season we've had 5 distance races before Tour de Ski, neither of them were in any way comparable with that 15k in Toblach. Even the skating mass start in Ruka were a lot more selective where only a couple of athletes were able to catch up the gaps created in the climbs. Looking at rest of the season it doesnt look to be many races where one can expect similar to what happened in Toblach on that stage 2.

It's also a bit hard to define that 1/3 of the races should be for the pure distance skiers, because some of the all rounders like Diggins are better distance skiers than some of the "pure distance skiers".

Even if you double the events Laukli could be up at the front in to allow for classic, it's still a long way below the amounts Skistad can, because FIS love the sprints because they're a TV format, regular gaps for ad breaks and some kind of guarantee of a burst of action every few minutes.

About 1/3 of the races are sprint races. The rest 2/3 is races where skiers like Johaug, Weng, Andersson etc are competitive or favorites. These are light weight (more or less pure) distance skiers. There are plenty of chances for these type of skiers. Sometimes they are being served the chance on the plate (like Alpe Cermis and in Lillehammer), other times they have to fight a bit for it (like in Ruka). I dont think the balance is bad at all.

And given the nature of sprints, integrating them into a stage race is always going to be fraught with difficulties because doing well in a sprint necessitates doing more rounds, but when a wrecking ball like a modern-day Strandvall could take out half the field in one heat and cost you almost a minute on the GC, or where you can lose time to a guy you went faster than because they were in a slower heat than you, it's never going to create a solution that pleases everybody. I don't really value the sprints very highly and think that the heavy impact of luck as a factor far more than in any other discipline means that in stage races we should minimise their impact.

I personally also am much in favour of distance races (preferably interval starts) and have been thinking since the first Tour that a pure distance skiing Tour would be more interesting. But the target from FIS with the Tour has been to award the most complete athlete (whatever the F that is) and I dont think there is anything that points in the direction of sprinters being so much awarded from the sprint races that they end up at the top of the GC.

From the 18 Tour de Skis we've seen I think on the womens side it's only 4 times (out of 54) an athlete mostly seen as a sprinter has ever podiumed the overall. Two times Follis, one time Majdic and one time Stina Nilsson. And these girls were also pretty solid distance skiers. Follis won Olympic bronze in skiathlon, Nilsson Olympic bronze in 30 km and Majdic won the World Cup 30 km in Trondheim (the year they rebuildt Holmenkollen) solo.

On the mens side there isnt really a single guy that have podiumed that have been more of a sprinter type when looking away from Klæbo. The only other candidates are Krogh (but he's also a Skiathlon World Championship medalist and won and podiumed several 10/15 km interval starts) and Østensen (he had a strange career, but looking at his results in the Norwegian Championships and Scandinavian Cup he was a better distance skier than sprinter, but struggled with a lot of bad luck with health and sometimes also unfair selections).

I think the problem with the sprints are that it's impossible to know exactly how much it costs to do all heats compared with the ones doing less or none heats. But 3 extra heat, with the warm up and full process costs a lot, so I dont think the bonus seconds are completely out of touch. And with "only" two sprints, Alpe Cermis is balancing well and as we've seen over the last 18 years, basically everyone that ends up on the podium or even top 5 are skiers that are winning distance medals at World Champs and Olympics (or regularly podiums in the World Cup).

As I say, to use my olden times comparisons, I'd look at, if they were around now, how many races could Randall win vs. how many Steira could.

Looking at their career Randall podiumed 29 World Cup races and won 2 individual Championship medals and Steira podiumed 22 World cup races and won 5 individual Championship medals, so basically it wasn't any huge difference between them. And the calendar hasnt changed that much since they competed. Steira in her peak wouldve definetively been fighting for a podium in Ruka 20 km, both distance races in Lillehammer, Davos 20 km, Val di Fiemme today, Alpe Cermis tomorrow, the mass starts in Les Rousses, Engadin and Falun. Both distance races in Oslo and the 50 km in Lahti. And of course the two longest races in the World Champs. Randall podiumed 1 classic sprint in her career, so one could almost argue that she would only have 6 World Cup races + the World Championship sprint.

We saw people like von Siebenthal retire young because it's just not worth it on the calendar with their skillset, especially during an era when Johaug just ran away from the field in anything that wasn't a sprint at the end of 10k that would allow somebody like Nilsson to hang on.

I would like to see where Siebenthal said that was the reason to retire., because from what I can remember she didnt publically say that as a reason at all. She took a break from training in the spring and summer after 2019 season and then she started training again in the autumn with the target to continuing her career, but when she started training again her body and her head was resisting. This is what she said when she announced the retirement, for example to SRF.
Also with the Johaug argument (Johaug won 11 races in World Cup and World Champs the last season of Von Siebenthal, even with skipping the Tour) you basically confirms there were plenty of races that suited the type of skier that was Von Siebenthal... If Von Siebenthal lacked chances, it's mostly because she lacked a lot of ability in classic. If it was like you described that all the races that suited her was won by Johaug, then the problem was Siebenthal wasnt good enough, not that the races didnt suit her. But I think it's pretty obvious that you are wrong about Von Siebenthals reasons for retiring.

And that's before we get to the tragedy that the relays have become and that the Team Sprint is now more common. While some skiers you might consider to be more distance-oriented have strong roles to play in the Team Sprint, that's still more for the all-rounder types than a pure distance skier, not that of course the relay legs are especially long either now.

I agree with the whole things with relays being suboptimal from both FIS and many national team, but I dont have any clear solutions or answers here.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I was expecting a lot more from Niskanen.

Me too, but I am also not surprised. She tends to be better when the courses are more "rythmic" (I mean with longer sections where one keep the same rythm) and this course has a lot of shorter hills, downhills with some corners (not her strength), and she's also been much less stable than some of the other top athletes during her whole career.

 

[BullsFan22]

This season we've had 5 distance races before Tour de Ski, neither of them were in any way comparable with that 15k in Toblach. Even the skating mass start in Ruka were a lot more selective where only a couple of athletes were able to catch up the gaps created in the climbs. Looking at rest of the season it doesnt look to be many races where one can expect similar to what happened in Toblach on that stage 2.

It's also a bit hard to define that 1/3 of the races should be for the pure distance skiers, because some of the all rounders like Diggins are better distance skiers than some of the "pure distance skiers".


About 1/3 of the races are sprint races. The rest 2/3 is races where skiers like Johaug, Weng, Andersson etc are competitive or favorites. These are light weight (more or less pure) distance skiers. There are plenty of chances for these type of skiers. Sometimes they are being served the chance on the plate (like Alpe Cermis and in Lillehammer), other times they have to fight a bit for it (like in Ruka). I dont think the balance is bad at all.

I personally also am much in favour of distance races (preferably interval starts) and have been thinking since the first Tour that a pure distance skiing Tour would be more interesting. But the target from FIS with the Tour has been to award the most complete athlete (whatever the F that is) and I dont think there is anything that points in the direction of sprinters being so much awarded from the sprint races that they end up at the top of the GC.

From the 18 Tour de Skis we've seen I think on the womens side it's only 4 times (out of 54) an athlete mostly seen as a sprinter has ever podiumed the overall. Two times Follis, one time Majdic and one time Stina Nilsson. And these girls were also pretty solid distance skiers. Follis won Olympic bronze in skiathlon, Nilsson Olympic bronze in 30 km and Majdic won the World Cup 30 km in Trondheim (the year they rebuildt Holmenkollen) solo.

On the mens side there isnt really a single guy that have podiumed that have been more of a sprinter type when looking away from Klæbo. The only other candidates are Krogh (but he's also a Skiathlon World Championship medalist and won and podiumed several 10/15 km interval starts) and Østensen (he had a strange career, but looking at his results in the Norwegian Championships and Scandinavian Cup he was a better distance skier than sprinter, but struggled with a lot of bad luck with health and sometimes also unfair selections).

I think the problem with the sprints are that it's impossible to know exactly how much it costs to do all heats compared with the ones doing less or none heats. But 3 extra heat, with the warm up and full process costs a lot, so I dont think the bonus seconds are completely out of touch. And with "only" two sprints, Alpe Cermis is balancing well and as we've seen over the last 18 years, basically everyone that ends up on the podium or even top 5 are skiers that are winning distance medals at World Champs and Olympics (or regularly podiums in the World Cup).

Looking at their career Randall podiumed 29 World Cup races and won 2 individual Championship medals and Steira podiumed 22 World cup races and won 5 individual Championship medals, so basically it wasn't any huge difference between them. And the calendar hasnt changed that much since they competed. Steira in her peak wouldve definetively been fighting for a podium in Ruka 20 km, both distance races in Lillehammer, Davos 20 km, Val di Fiemme today, Alpe Cermis tomorrow, the mass starts in Les Rousses, Engadin and Falun. Both distance races in Oslo and the 50 km in Lahti. And of course the two longest races in the World Champs. Randall podiumed 1 classic sprint in her career, so one could almost argue that she would only have 6 World Cup races + the World Championship sprint.

I would like to see where Siebenthal said that was the reason to retire., because from what I can remember she didnt publically say that as a reason at all. She took a break from training in the spring and summer after 2019 season and then she started training again in the autumn with the target to continuing her career, but when she started training again her body and her head was resisting. This is what she said when she announced the retirement, for example to SRF.
Also with the Johaug argument (Johaug won 11 races in World Cup and World Champs the last season of Von Siebenthal, even with skipping the Tour) you basically confirms there were plenty of races that suited the type of skier that was Von Siebenthal... If Von Siebenthal lacked chances, it's mostly because she lacked a lot of ability in classic. If it was like you described that all the races that suited her was won by Johaug, then the problem was Siebenthal wasnt good enough, not that the races didnt suit her. But I think it's pretty obvious that you are wrong about Von Siebenthals reasons for retiring.


I agree with the whole things with relays being suboptimal from both FIS and many national team, but I dont have any clear solutions or answers here.

Follis didn’t win bronze in the skiathlon at the Olympics, she won bronze with the Italian women’s relay team. She did get bronze in the 10km skate at the Sapporo 2007 WSC.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Follis didn’t win bronze in the skiathlon at the Olympics, she won bronze with the Italian women’s relay team. She did get bronze in the 10km skate at the Sapporo 2007 WSC.

You are right. I remember her winning a medal but missed with three years and the format. Should've double checked that one.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I believe Ustiugov is more talented than Bolshunov, but unfortunately we didn’t even see 1/4 of his potential fulfilled. Anyone able to upend a peak Sundby race after race when they’re 40 seconds ahead of the chasing group, to win qualifications by 4, 5 seconds, to drop a peak Pellegrino in a skate sprint, has some serious talent.

I've been thinking a bit about this post the last few days.

I think it's very clear that Ustiugov is more talented than Bolshunov in the sense of natural ability. His 4 gold medals from 4 races in his last Junior Worlds were really special, and much much better than what Bolshunov was able to do at the same age.

But I also think it's fair to say that Ustiugov didn't develope that much, especially when it came to the technique where he was very vulnerable to non-optimal skis, conditions and form. Bolshunov on the other hand came out of the juniors with big technical issues, especially in skating, which he overcame and developed into one of the most stable technical skiers in the mens field.

I think it is also fair to say that Bolshunov is superior when it comes to keeping motivation, working with details and also dealing with the intense training load the Russian system puts on their athletes. Therefore Bolshunov was able to perform stable, race after race and season after season while Ustiugov was unable to do so. 11 of Ustiougovs 16 top level victories came in a short period from February 2016 to the World Champs in Lahti 2017, before that he was "just" a big talent not been able to make the step yet and after that he was never the same again (for many reasons).

Imagine a team sprint with those two men. Should have happened in 2022, and obviously in 2018, but we can thank the poodles in the IOC.

I think in 2022 it wouldnt change much. Terenteev was better than Ustigov and I dont think there is any way Klæbo loses that race. In 2018 it couldve been different, but still against Klæbo (and Sundby was also very good that day) it wouldve been very hard, as Bolshunov wasnt as good in skating back then as he was a couple of seasons later. The big miss for the Russians were the 2021 team sprint in Oberstdorf. There Bolshunov was able to break Valnes, but Retivyk was no match for Klæbo even with a gap. With Ustiugov in top form (he didnt race much that season) instead that last leg wouldve been a very different task for Klæbo.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This season we've had 5 distance races before Tour de Ski, neither of them were in any way comparable with that 15k in Toblach. Even the skating mass start in Ruka were a lot more selective where only a couple of athletes were able to catch up the gaps created in the climbs. Looking at rest of the season it doesnt look to be many races where one can expect similar to what happened in Toblach on that stage 2.

It's also a bit hard to define that 1/3 of the races should be for the pure distance skiers, because some of the all rounders like Diggins are better distance skiers than some of the "pure distance skiers".


About 1/3 of the races are sprint races. The rest 2/3 is races where skiers like Johaug, Weng, Andersson etc are competitive or favorites. These are light weight (more or less pure) distance skiers. There are plenty of chances for these type of skiers. Sometimes they are being served the chance on the plate (like Alpe Cermis and in Lillehammer), other times they have to fight a bit for it (like in Ruka). I dont think the balance is bad at all.

I personally also am much in favour of distance races (preferably interval starts) and have been thinking since the first Tour that a pure distance skiing Tour would be more interesting. But the target from FIS with the Tour has been to award the most complete athlete (whatever the F that is) and I dont think there is anything that points in the direction of sprinters being so much awarded from the sprint races that they end up at the top of the GC.

From the 18 Tour de Skis we've seen I think on the womens side it's only 4 times (out of 54) an athlete mostly seen as a sprinter has ever podiumed the overall. Two times Follis, one time Majdic and one time Stina Nilsson. And these girls were also pretty solid distance skiers. Follis won Olympic bronze in skiathlon, Nilsson Olympic bronze in 30 km and Majdic won the World Cup 30 km in Trondheim (the year they rebuildt Holmenkollen) solo.

On the mens side there isnt really a single guy that have podiumed that have been more of a sprinter type when looking away from Klæbo. The only other candidates are Krogh (but he's also a Skiathlon World Championship medalist and won and podiumed several 10/15 km interval starts) and Østensen (he had a strange career, but looking at his results in the Norwegian Championships and Scandinavian Cup he was a better distance skier than sprinter, but struggled with a lot of bad luck with health and sometimes also unfair selections).

I think the problem with the sprints are that it's impossible to know exactly how much it costs to do all heats compared with the ones doing less or none heats. But 3 extra heat, with the warm up and full process costs a lot, so I dont think the bonus seconds are completely out of touch. And with "only" two sprints, Alpe Cermis is balancing well and as we've seen over the last 18 years, basically everyone that ends up on the podium or even top 5 are skiers that are winning distance medals at World Champs and Olympics (or regularly podiums in the World Cup).

Looking at their career Randall podiumed 29 World Cup races and won 2 individual Championship medals and Steira podiumed 22 World cup races and won 5 individual Championship medals, so basically it wasn't any huge difference between them. And the calendar hasnt changed that much since they competed. Steira in her peak wouldve definetively been fighting for a podium in Ruka 20 km, both distance races in Lillehammer, Davos 20 km, Val di Fiemme today, Alpe Cermis tomorrow, the mass starts in Les Rousses, Engadin and Falun. Both distance races in Oslo and the 50 km in Lahti. And of course the two longest races in the World Champs. Randall podiumed 1 classic sprint in her career, so one could almost argue that she would only have 6 World Cup races + the World Championship sprint.

I would like to see where Siebenthal said that was the reason to retire., because from what I can remember she didnt publically say that as a reason at all. She took a break from training in the spring and summer after 2019 season and then she started training again in the autumn with the target to continuing her career, but when she started training again her body and her head was resisting. This is what she said when she announced the retirement, for example to SRF.
Also with the Johaug argument (Johaug won 11 races in World Cup and World Champs the last season of Von Siebenthal, even with skipping the Tour) you basically confirms there were plenty of races that suited the type of skier that was Von Siebenthal... If Von Siebenthal lacked chances, it's mostly because she lacked a lot of ability in classic. If it was like you described that all the races that suited her was won by Johaug, then the problem was Siebenthal wasnt good enough, not that the races didnt suit her. But I think it's pretty obvious that you are wrong about Von Siebenthals reasons for retiring.


I agree with the whole things with relays being suboptimal from both FIS and many national team, but I dont have any clear solutions or answers here.

The problem I find with the "what is the most complete athlete" is that distances vary from sprint (circa 1-1,5km) up to 50km (previously 50/30 of course), but the calendar seems to have basically made the latter into a complete anomaly, with no other races over 20km. Almost everything is packaged to Sprint, 10km or 20km otherwise, which makes the 50k into even more of an outlier. While the addition of more 20km races has been a welcome move on the women's side (I always thought it going from 15k to 30k on the men's side, while it only increased from 10k to 15k on the women's, was ridiculous), the loss of variety on the tour does seem to have a detrimental effect in terms of resulting in a lot more formulaic racing. Going back 10-15 years we have short stage races with pursuit races (and yes, bonus seconds for the sprints), the 30k individual start in Davos, both a prologue and a 5km classic individual as part of the TDS, the 35km Toblach-Cortina pursuit, multiple city sprints, a 30km mass start in Classic in Nové Město in 2012. Now, the TDS is the only time any race exists that isn't in that basic package.

It feels like, as a result, the continuum from "pure sprinter" to "pure distance skier" is heavily skewed toward the former, because I don't look at the latter as being, say, Frida Karlsson. To me, Frida Karlsson is what an all-rounder should be considered to be (and yes, so is Jessica Diggins), because to me the split should be between "sprint", "short distance" (the 10k races), "medium distance" (15-20k races) and "long distance" (30-50k). A true "distance specialist" for me therefore gets like, one or two races a season, while a "sprinter" gets 1/3 the calendar. That's why I don't view somebody like Linn Svahn or Eirik Valnes as an "all-rounder", but as a durable sprinter. That's just how I view it, your mileage clearly differs. I feel that FIS has decided that the optimum is a balanced split between "sprint" and the nebulous concept of "distance", which by their definition appears to mean any race not a sprint. I'm afraid, however, that FIS values the sprint far more highly than I do, and as they have been stuck with a number of problems of turgid spectacle in distance races in recent years (a number of men's races that stay together as a pack for 95% the race distance, and a number of women's races that are foregone conclusions as soon as Therese runs away from everybody a couple of kilometres in), they've chosen to simply make the mass start races shorter, rather than recognise that most of the problems have stemmed from making those races mass start.

And as a TV spectacle goes, I get it. The sprint is perfect for TV, as I say. There's convenient, regular spots to put adverts in, you've got the guarantee of some action every few minutes, the antithesis of those long mass start races where nothing happens. It gets rid of one of the weaknesses that the sport has as a TV sport in comparison to biathlon - in biathlon you're guaranteed at least the chance of the race situation changing roughly every five to ten minutes depending on course and format. The race is never over until 80% distance, whereas XC mass start races have suffered from either being over after 20% distance, or not even beginning until around 90% distance. I believe this was one of the original intentions behind the Bonus Trophy as well, try to induce more action and competition for that across the season to give something mid-race to create a fight or attract more aggressive racing, but I also believe it has backfired tremendously, with most races seeing everybody bunch back together to contest the bonus sprints and it having a negative impact on the rest of the race.

I just think that the sport is in the vice-like grip of the same problem we see in other sports: old men in suits telling other old men in suits what they think young people like, and those other old men in suits nodding sagely in agreement. It doesn't help when you have commentators who think mass starts and sprints are the best thing since sliced bread because it's a close finish and they only have to bother to learn about the 10 or so athletes that always end up at the front.

But that's more my problem with the calendar in general rather than with the Tour specifically, and as I've said before, I don't think you're ever going to find a way to satisfactorily incorporate the sprint as a format into the Tour that's going to please everybody, because of the different distances skied by everybody as a result - it's just that with the rest of the Tour schedule, no matter how balanced on paper, serving to largely, especially on the men's side, negate all other differences made on the snow by bunching people back together in a pursuit after the only individual start, and giving us timid, boring mass start races won in the same fashion as a sprint in three out of the four races (the women today being the exception), the disproportionate impact of those bonus seconds in the Tour's GC, and the benefit that the durable sprinter archetype gains from this, is just impossible to ignore for me in the men's competition this season and has sparked this whole discussion.

 

[BullsFan22]

You are right. I remember her winning a medal but missed with three years and the format. Should've double checked that one.

Oh no worries, it’s not a big deal. I just checked.

But your point is well taken. I agree with you. Laukli is essentially a one trick pony. She finished 31 seconds behind in the qualification, and didn’t look all that great today or other races at the TDS where one may expect good results from her.

Skistad doesn’t ski distance races all that often, even in Norway. But she does sprints in both techniques really well. Laukli can’t classic ski all that well. Her best chance seems to be Alpe Cermis, but I am not convinced that she’ll get on the podium tomorrow. I could be wrong though, if she purposely sandbagged, then she may surprise.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

It feels like, as a result, the continuum from "pure sprinter" to "pure distance skier" is heavily skewed toward the former, because I don't look at the latter as being, say, Frida Karlsson. To me, Frida Karlsson is what an all-rounder should be considered to be (and yes, so is Jessica Diggins), because to me the split should be between "sprint", "short distance" (the 10k races), "medium distance" (15-20k races) and "long distance" (30-50k). A true "distance specialist" for me therefore gets like, one or two races a season, while a "sprinter" gets 1/3 the calendar.

But is there any athlete that is only competitive on 30-50km and significantly weaker in 15-20km? I think separating 20k races (especially the interval start ones) from long distance races is an artificial separation.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But is there any athlete that is only competitive on 30-50km and significantly weaker in 15-20km? I think separating 20k races from long distance races is an artificial separation.

Well, the problem is that you'd probably have to compare to the Ski Classics guys and girls, because there's not much point in an athlete like that spending much time on the World Cup of course.

 

[kingjr]

@Libertine Seguros Could you please address Eddy's point about von Siebenthal?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Well, the problem is that you'd probably have to compare to the Ski Classics guys and girls, because there's not much point in an athlete like that spending much time on the World Cup of course.

Don’t get me started on Ski Classic athletes…
Ski Classics is in my eyes a glorified retirement home. Ski classics could’ve been really cool if they had a much bigger variation, with more races where just double poling wasn’t an option and if they also had longer skate races. As it is now with just double poling it literally feels like it’s the place for the retired old World Cup skiers and the guys that never made it that still wants to train a lot at a “professional hobby level”. Guys like Elisson and Gjerdalen weren’t even great double polers in the World Cup circus, yet both became extremely dominant in Ski Classics…

(To be fair, I’m extremely impressed by Slinds story)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@Libertine Seguros Could you please address Eddy's point about von Siebenthal?

He has enough detail that I'm happy to stand corrected. By my understanding she had been talking about retirement before that off-season (backed up partially here in the article linked on her wiki about her actual retirement, as she stated she was looking to take time away from the sport in the spring, and toward the end of the 2018-19 season already there had been speculation), but Eddy does correct me in that she did attempt to come back in the autumn and made a genuine, definitive retirement later on which I had either missed entirely or misremembered.

As her initial announcement of retirement, or at least of an extended break, was a bit surprising at the time, there was some speculation online that came with it. I've probably internalised this and then misremembered that as fact given time elapsed and that the mention of her was tangential in that post, and the interpretation almost certainly came with a helping hand from line-of-best-fit and confirmation bias. I'm willing to own that.

 

[kingjr]

He has enough detail that I'm happy to stand corrected. By my understanding she had been talking about retirement before that off-season (backed up partially here in the article linked on her wiki about her actual retirement, as she stated she was looking to take time away from the sport in the spring, and toward the end of the 2018-19 season already there had been speculation), but Eddy does correct me in that she did attempt to come back in the autumn and made a genuine, definitive retirement later on which I had either missed entirely or misremembered.

As her initial announcement of retirement, or at least of an extended break, was a bit surprising at the time, there was some speculation online that came with it. I've probably internalised this and then misremembered that as fact given time elapsed, with a helping hand from line-of-best-fit and confirmation bias. I'm willing to own that.

Thanks

 

[YavorD]

@Libertine Seguros As a way to increase action on distance races, I would go for something like golden kilometer (name it however you like) with bonuses spread within the kilometer on perhaps the hardest part of the course instead of a certain point. That way you can give pure distance skiers more of a reason to push for longer and eventually break the durable sprinter types guy. Putting the bonuses at a certain point basically makes it a short-burst-of-speed friendly, thus killing the action.
I know it's really artificial, but you really need to create some excitement in the distance races. Individuals, which I really like and prefer aren't really exciting (unlike in biathlon where the shooting factor makes the race exciting for long).

As for sprints I wouldn't mind if they put something like a long sprint (2,2-2,5 km) on a hard-ish loops. That way you still keep the TV friendly format while you give a chance to some more durable long-distance skier to try and break the race.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don’t get me started on Ski Classic athletes…
Ski Classics is in my eyes a glorified retirement home. Ski classics could’ve been really cool if they had a much bigger variation, with more races where just double poling wasn’t an option and if they also had longer skate races. As it is now with just double poling it literally feels like it’s the place for the retired old World Cup skiers and the guys that never made it that still wants to train a lot at a “professional hobby level”. Guys like Elisson and Gjerdalen weren’t even great double polers in the World Cup circus, yet both became extremely dominant in Ski Classics…

(To be fair, I’m extremely impressed by Slinds story)

Yes, the Ski Classics calendar suffers from a bit too much one-tone with the double poling for sure. I guess the problem is that it's built as a calendar around things like Vasaloppet which is obviously a largely flat race, but you'd certainly imagine they could vary it a lot more with some of the less historic races (I'm not about to demand a change to, say, the Marcialonga route). The field often has the feel of a retirement home when you see various ex-World Cup names (and not always ones that were distance specialists which is the kind of people we'd be aiming at here either), but to me that makes it kind of similar to looking at the Le Mans field compared to that of F1, where you can find a group of endurance specialists alongside a host of ex-F1 names of varying levels. No doubt there are some that are genuine talent specialising in marathon distance, but that attract less investment in tech, training etc. with their Ski Classics trade teams than the national teams' budgets on the World Cup, but there are also some, especially given the extent of the overspill of talent in Norway and Sweden, who are simply taking a path of less resistance than the grind of fighting out on the domestic calendar for shots at the few open spots in the World Cup team for the 10k/20k distance races.

There are a few names from there that I suppose would fall in the category of real genuine distance specialists at both World Cup and Ski Classics kind of level, but certainly none that would be like regular podium threats or anything. Seraina Boner is an example, winning the Marcialonga and the Birkebeinerrennet twice each, and then being 9th at the Olympic 30k and 15th at the Worlds 30k in 2014 and 2015 afterwards (before going back and winning more on the Ski Classics calendar). Masako Ishida is another, but again, not at a level that is likely to be considered a viable threat. People like Smedås or Persson are still under 30 and their results show that they're clearly stronger even at the Continental Cup level at the marathon distances (I compare to the lower levels as they haven't really done any top level racing, but also to give at least some allowance for the field quality). However you take a race like Reistadlopet which is at the 40-50km line, the upper mark of World Cup race distances, and you see Nyenget, Andersson and Slind largely winning in recent years. And you do have examples in recent years where current World Cup talents have fit a Ski Classics race into their calendar and have picked up some comfortable wins, such as Therese Johaug at Birkebeinerrennet in 2015, Martin Johnsrud Sundby likewise in 2017, and Jessie Diggins at the American Birkie last year.

 

[BullsFan22]

The Ski Classics is pretty much just a number of Scandinavian teams driven by Scandinavian sponsors. The CEO is Swedish. Very few ‘foreigners’ there.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The Ski Classics is pretty much just a number of Scandinavian teams driven by Scandinavian sponsors. The CEO is Swedish. Very few ‘foreigners’ there.

There was Ermil Vokuev and the Русская зима team.

Thr overall level, it depends. Someone like Fleten and Ida Dahl (when she's healthy) could compete in the world cup.

@Eddy Evenepoel Gjerdalen did clearly beat Nyenget in the uphillish individual start Val Venosta race.
https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=70059&raceid=41089

Sundby finished 1min behind the winner in the Plätzwiese uphill dp race (6.5kms at 8.6%).
https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=89621&raceid=41058

Ermil Vokuev has finished 2nd in the Russian NC classic 15km before (behind Bolshunov) and Ustiugov has called him the best double poler in Russia. https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=167881&raceid=39855

Imo the top guys could be conpetitive in the world cup, but you aren't wrong with your overall assesstment of the Ski Classics.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

@Eddy Evenepoel Gjerdalen did clearly beat Nyenget in the uphillish individual start Val Venosta race.
https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=70059&raceid=41089

Sundby finished 1min behind the winner in the Plätzwiese uphill dp race (6.5kms at 8.6%).
https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=89621&raceid=41058

Ermil Vokuev has finished 2nd in the Russian NC classic 15km before (behind Bolshunov) and Ustiugov has called him the best double poler in Russia. https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/results.html?sectorcode=CC&competitorid=167881&raceid=39855

Imo the top guys could be conpetitive in the world cup, but you aren't wrong with your overall assesstment of the Ski Classics.

I think I explained my examples with Gjerdalen and Eliassen badly. I meant when they were WC-skiers they weren’t exceptional in double poling, but when they retired from the national team and went over to Ski Classics they became outstanding. Of course their double poling level was getting much better when they were training only that. What I meant is that I believe that almost every good/decent male skier (even skinny weak guys like Moch and Vermeulen) on the World Cup could become great Ski Classic skiers if they want to. In 2016 on the Norwegian opening Gjerdalen and Eide Pedersen (both peak Ski Classics skier at that time, Gjerdalen won Marcialonga and Eide Pedersen Jizerska that season) double poled into second and third in the classic race, beating all the traditional skiers with kick wax. But Tønseth, an athlete which was deemed to have his strength in diagonal stride also decided to double pole the whole way and beat the two ski classics guys comfortably. Weve seen Sundby winning Birken double poling as well

The other way, almost no Ski Classic skier could become great World Cup skiers if they want that (because most of them tried to earlier). I think the main reason for that is that the people that are choosing Ski Classics early on are lacking something to be successful in regular skiing and when switching to ski classics they fail to develope and/or lose technical skills.

I think for Slind it worked to come back partly because she started pretty late with Ski Classics. She made the switch when she was 28-29, she still raced a bit on kick wax in the early Ski Classic days, she still took part regularly in traditional ski races like Norwegian opening and Norwegian Champs and she even did a biathlon project during the Covid pandemic. This variation meant that the way back to traditional skiing was very short.

For guys like Andreas Nygaard and Emil Persson I don’t think it would’ve been possible at all to convert back to traditional racing and be competitive at World Cup level (except maybe in flatter classic sprints).

 

[Mayomaniac]

I think I explained my examples with Gjerdalen and Eliassen badly. I meant when they were WC-skiers they weren’t exceptional in double poling, but when they retired from the national team and went over to Ski Classics they became outstanding. Of course their double poling level was getting much better when they were training only that. What I meant is that I believe that almost every good/decent male skier (even skinny weak guys like Moch and Vermeulen) on the World Cup could become great Ski Classic skiers if they want to. In 2016 on the Norwegian opening Gjerdalen and Eide Pedersen (both peak Ski Classics skier at that time, Gjerdalen won Marcialonga and Eide Pedersen Jizerska that season) double poled into second and third in the classic race, beating all the traditional skiers with kick wax. But Tønseth, an athlete which was deemed to have his strength in diagonal stride also decided to double pole the whole way and beat the two ski classics guys comfortably. Weve seen Sundby winning Birken double poling as well

The other way, almost no Ski Classic skier could become great World Cup skiers if they want that (because most of them tried to earlier). I think the main reason for that is that the people that are choosing Ski Classics early on are lacking something to be successful in regular skiing and when switching to ski classics they fail to develope and/or lose technical skills.

I think for Slind it worked to come back partly because she started pretty late with Ski Classics. She made the switch when she was 28-29, she still raced a bit on kick wax in the early Ski Classic days, she still took part regularly in traditional ski races like Norwegian opening and Norwegian Champs and she even did a biathlon project during the Covid pandemic. This variation meant that the way back to traditional skiing was very short.

For guys like Andreas Nygaard and Emil Persson I don’t think it would’ve been possible at all to convert back to traditional racing and be competitive at World Cup level (except maybe in flatter classic sprints).

Yeah, it is a very specific skillset with very specific training (absurdly high volume of DP training). It's a very single minded thing and that makes it even more stupid to have a young guy like Myhlback focus on it instead of trying to develop him into a well rounded skier. And yeah, Tonseth turned into one of the biggest DP and V2 skating monsters at some point, I remember him V2ing the steepest climb on the Toblach climb, when it probably wasn't the most efficient thing to do.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

There are a few names from there that I suppose would fall in the category of real genuine distance specialists at both World Cup and Ski Classics kind of level, but certainly none that would be like regular podium threats or anything. Seraina Boner is an example, winning the Marcialonga and the Birkebeinerrennet twice each, and then being 9th at the Olympic 30k and 15th at the Worlds 30k in 2014 and 2015 afterwards (before going back and winning more on the Ski Classics calendar). Masako Ishida is another, but again, not at a level that is likely to be considered a viable threat. People like Smedås or Persson are still under 30 and their results show that they're clearly stronger even at the Continental Cup level at the marathon distances (I compare to the lower levels as they haven't really done any top level racing, but also to give at least some allowance for the field quality).

Some interesting examples here, but I’m not sure if they really work as athletes being clearly more competitive over 30-50km than for example 10-15 km. Boner never broke into top 20 in Holmenkollen 30 km for example, and she was top 15 4 times in the World Cup, all races of 10-15 km. In the World Champs she also had a top 10 in the 10km once.

Ishida is a good example of a very strong 30 km skier, but she also had plenty of top 10 and even top 5s in 10 and 15 kms, so not really a clear difference saying that she was so much better in the longer races.

Smedaas was even a decent sprinter, she’s won sprint races in the Norwegian Cup and she’s been skiing sprint races for Norway in the World Cup. All her best WC results are from 10/15 km as well.

Persson is another vague example, he has some decent results in sprint, I think even last year he won a sprint race in the Swedish Cup ahead of Oskar Svensson.

In general I think there are almost no differences in the skill set that is needed to be good in a 15 km interval start and a 50 km mass start until the final kilometre.
And I think that there is a lot of proof that the skill set needed for sprint race are also very compatible with the long races in Ski Classics. A nice remembering that even sprint races and sprint athletes are endurance events.

 

[meat puppet]

Specificity is a thing, sure, but I think basic physiology would side with Eddy's arguments here. A 15k is mostly about sustaining a high rate of aerobic ATP production, but so is the 50k, only at a slightly lesser fraction of one's capacity. The power/duration relationship has a very shallow slope beyond a couple minutes, anyway. And after about 70 sec full gaz efforts, ATP production is 50+ percent aerobic. This puts xc sprint events lasting about 180 sec per bout and repeated several times firmly in the endurance bin in the grand scheme of things.

I don't like current TDS design, kinda detest the mostly unskiable final hill gimmickry, but have no sensible proposals to make the event more balanced either given the current constraints (tv friendliness and the powers that be's idea of what is good for the sport). Too much boni are awarded to sprinters but taking away too much and thus awarding the so called distance specialists - or rather athletes whose sprint sucks more than others' - doesn't seem right either. A 35+ k stage from a to b with long, skiable climbs and long flats might work but I guess it's strictly off limits.