NovitzkyÂ’s European vacation

[Darryl Webster]

which to me suggests he may be a puppet for others. Let Lance think he is in control but the serious decisions were made by Weisel and others????

Gawd only knows how long the list is of peeps wanting to throw Goldenball under a bus is!...above him and bellow him theres gotta be a long queue!
"Rats deserting a sinking ship" and "Mutiny on the Bounty" spring to mind
I guess "Lance`s World" is rather like "Lord of the Flys" eh?

 

[Benotti69]

Gawd only knows how long the list is of peeps wanting to throw Goldenball under a bus is!...above him and bellow him theres gotta be a long queue!
"Rats deserting a sinking ship" and "Mutiny on the Bounty" spring to mind
I guess "Lance`s World" is rather like "Lord of the Flys" eh?

well i imagine they don't want to Armstrong go under a bus as he might spill his guts and that may lead to those pulling the strings to do a lot of time.

I guess they want him to get off but if he doesn't they'll want the trail to stop at his door.

 

[mwbyrd]

"But to be honest and hence why the meetings in Lyon were heralded by the participants. The Europeans are sick to death of their borders awash with drug trafficking and the Americans are tired of legitimate life saving drugs bought and sold on the black market - some don't see the seriousness in all of this - but protecting ones borders and closing down illegal drug importation networks is not a waste of tax payers money.* "

I'm starting to think what you said above is the key. Someone (ie the Feds) finally decided to do something about doping and determined to go to the source. LA is just the media spin on this. He will eventually cut a deal never having to admit he doped just like the rest of the cyclists that have already testified. If Clemmons and Bonds had taken the 'deals' they were offered and not DENIED, DENIED to the GJ, they would be a footnote to the whole Baseball/Steriods deal.

Someone is trying to 'cut the head off the snake'. That's the focus. Heck, the drug companies may have spearheaded this whole thing and were able to get the Feds involved to determine how their drugs are ending up in cyclists/athletes. Remember, it's not just cyclist using this stuff and LA is the highest profile athlete in the 'right' sport to figure this whole thing out. I'm thinking he is a 'distraction' and the Feds are focusing on the big picture - DOPING

 

[thehog]

"But to be honest and hence why the meetings in Lyon were heralded by the participants. The Europeans are sick to death of their borders awash with drug trafficking and the Americans are tired of legitimate life saving drugs bought and sold on the black market - some don't see the seriousness in all of this - but protecting ones borders and closing down illegal drug importation networks is not a waste of tax payers money.* "

I'm starting to think what you said above is the key. Someone (ie the Feds) finally decided to do something about doping and determined to go to the source. LA is just the media spin on this. He will eventually cut a deal never having to admit he doped just like the rest of the cyclists that have already testified. If Clemmons and Bonds had taken the 'deals' they were offered and not DENIED, DENIED to the GJ, they would be a footnote to the whole Baseball/Steriods deal.

Someone is trying to 'cut the head off the snake'. That's the focus. Heck, the drug companies may have spearheaded this whole thing and were able to get the Feds involved to determine how their drugs are ending up in cyclists/athletes. Remember, it's not just cyclist using this stuff and LA is the highest profile athlete in the 'right' sport to figure this whole thing out. I'm thinking he is a 'distraction' and the Feds are focusing on the big picture - DOPING

What people forget is to get drugs across country borders you need logistics and a network. Vaughters talked about this in his IM as well as Floyd in his admissions. Doping at the Tour is not always about the best drugs it's about getting your blood, EPO or whatever from it's source to the Tour route undetected. Passing UCI dope tests is the easy part. Getting your gear to small towns in France needs to be extremely well planned and executed. These networks don't just exist for Armstrong. They're part of a larger network of smuggling and illegal importation. The people who do the drug running take a massive risk. Therefore they don't do it as a one off. They keep their networks running for other clients. Again this why they want this shut down. When kingpin Armstrong arranges the best network and the best drugs to be muled from Spain through Italy to France the network remains. They then spend the rest of the year importing other drugs, cheap electronics from China etc. The next time some junior in Italy injects himself with EPO he doesn't get it from a supermarket. He makes contact with "some guy" who "knows a guy" who can run this stuff from the Ukraine to the Italy. Don't forget this. Young cyclists end up using because it's accessible. Armstrong kept these networks in business along with the illegal trade so young cyclists could get there hands on more so than otherwise. The Feds, Interpol or whichever National authority wants it shutdown.* And rightfully so I might add.

 

[Benotti69]

What people forget is to get drugs across country borders you need logistics and a network. Vaughters talked about this in his IM as well as Floyd in his admissions. Doping at the Tour is not always about the best drugs it's about getting your blood, EPO or whatever from it's source to the Tour route undetected. Passing UCI dope tests is the easy part. Getting your gear to small towns in France needs to be extremely well planned and executed. These networks don't just exist for Armstrong. They're part of a larger network of smuggling and illegal importation. The people who do the drug running take a massive risk. Therefore they don't do it as a one off. They keep their networks running for other clients. Again this why they want this shut down. When kingpin Armstrong arranges the best network and the best drugs to be muled from Spain through Italy to France the network remains. They then spend the rest of the year importing other drugs, cheap electronics from China etc. The next time some junior in Italy injects himself with EPO he doesn't get it from a supermarket. He makes contact with "some guy" who "knows a guy" who can run this stuff from the Ukraine to the Italy. Don't forget this. Young cyclists end up using because it's accessible. Armstrong kept these networks in business along with the illegal trade so young cyclists could get there hands on more so than otherwise. The Feds, Interpol or whichever National authority wants it shutdown.* And rightfully so I might add.

Volodymyr Bileka, Ukrainian, rode for Discovery Channel between 2005 and 2007. As with fellow teammate and compatriot Yaroslav Popovych, he had shown promise by winning numerous races as a junior before turning professional. On May 6 Bileka sent a letter to team management announcing his resignation from the team due to personal reasons, subsequentally revealed to be a two year ban for use of EPO

 

[mwbyrd]

What people forget is to get drugs across country borders you need logistics and a network. Vaughters talked about this in his IM as well as Floyd in his admissions. Doping at the Tour is not always about the best drugs it's about getting your blood, EPO or whatever from it's source to the Tour route undetected. Passing UCI dope tests is the easy part. Getting your gear to small towns in France needs to be extremely well planned and executed. These networks don't just exist for Armstrong. They're part of a

I agree with most of this except about Armstrong keeping the 'networks' going. I just can't go there. That would make Armstrong the 'king of the mafia' so to speak.

But I guess crazier things have happened.

The other thing that baffles me about the doping is how scientific it is and yet it's still so 'underground'. I know the cyclists are smart enough to figure this stuff out.

 

[Benotti69]

I agree with most of this except about Armstrong keeping the 'networks' going. I just can't go there. That would make Armstrong the 'king of the mafia' so to speak.

But I guess crazier things have happened.

The other thing that baffles me about the doping is how scientific it is and yet it's still so 'underground'. I know the cyclists are smart enough to figure this stuff out.

team Doctors figure it out along with the Ferarri, Fuentes and the Conconi's of the sporting world

 

[thehog]

I agree with most of this except about Armstrong keeping the 'networks' going. I just can't go there. That would make Armstrong the 'king of the mafia' so to speak.

But I guess crazier things have happened.

The other thing that baffles me about the doping is how scientific it is and yet it's still so 'underground'. I know the cyclists are smart enough to figure this stuff out.

Think of all the idiots who were caught with gear in their suitcases. Armstrong and team were hooked up. No one would ever carry drugs to a race. That's just suicide. With a "network" the drugs arrive - within minutes you transfuse and then it's "cleaned up" - like it never happened. You don't transport drugs yourself. A 2 year ban from cycling is better than a night in a French jail. French border guards love spitting on skinny cyclists. You need a network. Lance taught Floyd this game - hence the use of the autograph hunter as the blood donor.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Lance taught Floyd this game - hence the use of the autograph hunter as the blood donor.

Whoa, hadn't heard about that. Can you expand/explain? Was it Flicker seeking autographs?

 

[Bilirubin]

These networks don't just exist for Armstrong. They're part of a larger network of smuggling and illegal importation. The people who do the drug running take a massive risk. Therefore they don't do it as a one off. They keep their networks running for other clients. Again this why they want this shut down.

I doubt it. Blood doping isn't a commonly used drug on the street that drug gangs would be involved in. It's usually stored at someone's house and then transferred to the stage. You don't need a massive mafia organisation to do that. The rest of the meds they take like blood expanders can be easily bought off the internet.

"Drug trafficking" and "networks" is just the scary official name for what is in fact a few cyclists and their friends moving drugs around.

 

[JPM London]

The producers will be casting one actress for the role of Lance's Mum and all of his girlfriends.

Heh, gold!

The way Popo was brought in for questioning scared a lot of people. It was witnessed by many and for the first time Armstrong's people realised they are not in control of the situation. There are a lot of very frightened people. This cannot be brushed aside by a UCI whitewash report. I've been reliably informed that if Armstrong attempts to leave the country they will detain him and confiscate his passport. He won't be at the TDU.

It's really annoying, Hog, you come up with all these great pieces of completely unreliable info - but I love reading it! Each and every time...

New this morning:

"Armstrong spokesman decries “money-wasting” trip to Europe"

Really, for the money Lance pays these guys, that's STILL the best they can come up with??

Next to come: Armstrong decries spokesman "money-waste"...

Whoa, hadn't heard about that. Can you expand/explain? Was it Flicker seeking autographs?

Floyd detailed how, when it got difficult to move blood, they had their courier do the role of autograph hunting fan to make the delivery easier...

 

[Berzin]

The way Popo was brought in for questioning scared a lot of people. It was witnessed by many and for the first time Armstrong's people realised they are not in control of the situation. There are a lot of very frightened people. This cannot be brushed aside by a UCI whitewash report. I've been reliably informed that if Armstrong attempts to leave the country they will detain him and confiscate his passport. He won't be at the TDU.

A very likely scenario given that the case may wind down by Christmas.

But...but...Lance was going to donate his appearance fee to Livestrong.com.org.net...and he was riding for us...I mean them...I mean himself...

Novitzky loves cancer!!!

 

[flicker]

I heard it was Jabba the hutt being ferried down from the Death Star, he had a whole lotta blood to donate. Darth V. and the Imperial Wizard were in command of the USPS blood doping/EPO ring. There Jeff, can I have my immunity and my five dollars please.

 

[Bilirubin]

Lance Armstrong via Twitter-"Question-where did our priorities go?"

Answer-"To exposing the truth".

Do you think exposing the truth is now a priority for the US government in general, or just on this issue?

 

[webvan]

Fascinating stuff, the 1999 TDF is coming back now...prologue, ok, nice effort...Sestrières ?! WTF happened here, something's not right. OK Ullrich wasn't here, 2000 will de different. Nope, here comes Hautacam, the Joux-Plane bonking, the last ITT should be interesting, hum, no. Then the Alpe d'Huez stage whining in 2001 and the Luz Ardiden "he didn't wait for me" comedy in 2003.

And to think that we have Landis to thank for that, Landis who was so infuriating when he wasted everyone's time...and who would have kept quiet if he'd been allowed to ride the ToC this year!

 

[Dettol]

For all the gloating in this thread I think the outcome will be more mundane. I can't see Lance ever getting jail time the guy can afford the best to get off.

 

[Benotti69]

For all the gloating in this thread I think the outcome will be more mundane. I can't see Lance ever getting jail time the guy can afford the best to get off.

that Fabiani guy is really sticking it to the Feds

 

[thehog]

that Fabiani guy is really sticking it to the Feds

Does the FBI take donations?

 

[Dettol]

Fabiani is for the Lance supporters, he gives them the lines to regurgitate. You can't expect him to use facts from the case to support Lance while the investigation is still ongoing can you? When it comes to the lawyers, Lance like any body else is going to go for the best to try and get off.

 

[oldschoolnik]

Do you think exposing the truth is now a priority for the US government in general, or just on this issue?

When the lie is to millions of people (many with cancer) and the lie earned many people millions of dollars, yes, I think pursuing the truth is a priorty for them - it really doesn't matter whether they always from here on in "pursue the truth in general" it's a more than valid pursuit.

Besides, lets see how big this network or fraud is before we judge whether it's worth it.

 

[Benotti69]

Does the FBI take donations?

yep $30,000 a week

 

[Dettol]

The more important point is that now Lance is expendable, he isn't a national hero anymore like Contador.

That said they took down Jones and Bonds so maybe when it comes to fairness in sport the US stands by it's principles unlike other things.

 

[BroDeal]

Think of all the idiots who were caught with gear in their suitcases. Armstrong and team were hooked up. No one would ever carry drugs to a race. That's just suicide. With a "network" the drugs arrive - within minutes you transfuse and then it's "cleaned up" - like it never happened. You don't transport drugs yourself. A 2 year ban from cycling is better than a night in a French jail. French border guards love spitting on skinny cyclists. You need a network. Lance taught Floyd this game - hence the use of the autograph hunter as the blood donor.

Uh, sure dude. They just flipped open the yellow pages, looked up "dope transport," and told them they needed a shipment delivered on the second rest day. They then asked about the before ten guarantee, where there is a 50% discount if the courier does not arrive by ten o'clock in the morning.

FLandis needed Lim. He did not need a shadowy external network.

As far as the actual dope goes, there are three questions. 1) Where did they buy it. 2) Who transported it across borders and how. 3) To whom did he give it or sell it, and how did he facilitate that..

As for 1) there are a zillion sources, and it is easy to use a cutout. It's not like Armstrong has to go down the local gym and look for a bro who is making money on the side. He could send a trusted confident who is part of a very small and trusted circle. The $64K question is who bought the stuff in the U.S. or carried it into the country.

2) may present a very big problem. If Hamilton's doping schedule is indicative of what is typical then a PED of one kind or another was being used several times a week during training. With Armstrong jetting around from place to place that means a lot of international borders being crossed.

3) is a problem because the other members of the team had to be supplied, so there was definitely drug trafficking. They were distributing drugs. A good line of attack would be to accumulate testimony from Postal's U.S. riders about the three Postal doctors then indict and extradite them. The team doctors are at the center because they had to deal with dope supply and with team management. Crack them and they will give a huge amount of information.

An interesting thing about FLandis' e-mail is what a small and tight operation they were running. It is also interesting how paranoid they were even back in 2002.

 

[Berzin]

Fascinating stuff, the 1999 TDF is coming back now...prologue, ok, nice effort...Sestrières ?! WTF happened here, something's not right. OK Ullrich wasn't here, 2000 will de different. Nope, here comes Hautacam, the Joux-Plane bonking, the last ITT should be interesting, hum, no. Then the Alpe d'Huez stage whining in 2001 and the Luz Ardiden "he didn't wait for me" comedy in 2003.

You bring up some excellent points. In 1999, even before the Sestrieres stage, there was the time trial where Armstrong caught Abraham Olano for 2 minutes. That to me was pretty far-fetched, especially given that Olano was the world TT champion at the time.

Granted Olano didn't have an especially good ride that day (I remember him taking a turn a bit too wide and crashing into a bale of hay that was strategically positioned to break the rider's fall) but still I as like "C'mon, when the hell did this guy Lance start time trialing like that?"

And to think that we have Landis to thank for that, Landis who was so infuriating when he wasted everyone's time...and who would have kept quiet if he'd been allowed to ride the ToC this year!

An even more excellent point. All the guy wanted was a gig. But I believe the last straw was when he contacted whomever about riding for Radio Shack. It wasn't so much that he was turned down but the excuse he was given about his "past".

That would have sent me right through the roof. The nerve...

 

[Bilirubin]

When the lie is to millions of people (many with cancer) and the lie earned many people millions of dollars, yes, I think pursuing the truth is a priorty for them - it really doesn't matter whether they always from here on in "pursue the truth in general" it's a more than valid pursuit.

It doesn't matter whether they pursue the truth in general? That begs the question: where did our priorities go?

Besides, lets see how big this network or fraud is before we judge whether it's worth it.

Doesn't that contradict your first point about the huge damage Armstrong has done to millions of cancer sufferers? Maybe they're not really one of your priorities.