Nuclear disaster in Japan and wider Nuclear discussion

[flicker]

Tsunami waves destroyed the backup diesel generators. If the engines had been protected, the crisis would not have happened.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Tsunami waves destroyed the backup diesel generators. If the engines had been protected, the crisis would not have happened.

WoW....you just figured that out? I think that was reported at the outset of the disaster. The clue to that is when you see the Arial photos of the plant and that water that is off to the side is the PACIFIC ocean. Take a look at the map and you will notice the proximity of the plant to the epicenter of the earthquake.....common sense says that every costal town in that area was destroyed.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Tsunami waves destroyed the backup diesel generators. If the engines had been protected, the crisis would not have happened.

Exactly. Of course pointing this out will put a damper on the hysteria about nuclear power.

 

[flicker]

Any time you put a plant near water you take a risk. Obviously building on a floodplain or in an earthquake zone or on the coast..... so obvious that tsumanis have plagued Japan since time eternity, man does not learn that nature has more power than he.....

 

[Ferminal]

Plus, I've seen it written since this started that it costs nearly as much to de-certify one as it does to make one.

Yes, closing it down usually means decommissioning, moving all the reactor materials, radioactive wastes etc. Not a cheap process and a very strong factor in the argument against nuclear power.

So once they are running, it's hard to shut them down, it's why you see their lives trying to be extended (from 40 to 60 years I think it is in the US?).

On the subject of costs:

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C_Billion-euro_nuclear_shutdown_in_Germany_1603111.html

"Using the latest German power prices from the International Energy Agency, the market value of that power (including transmission etc) would be between €1.0 billion and €2.6 billion ($1.3 billion to $3.6 billion).

The impact on the German government from loss of income via its unique nuclear fuel tax could be around €235 million ($328 million)."

I assume the nuclear tax is used to cross-subsidise, paying for some of the guaranteed solar feed-in tariff?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Akzeptiert.
Well, at least the good news is alternate energy sources and fuels are being developed. But these are not at the point where nuclear energy can be replaced by them, if that's even possible. To get to that point will take much time and patience. So for the time being, I'm pro-nuke. Eventually, it would be nice if we lived in a world that was none-nuke.

It´s all about the (Paper/Fiat-)Money. In Germany 28% energy comes from nuclear plants, and Germany exports Energy. So we could live without nuclear plants, if big companies would not be owned by greedy psychopaths who influence (bribe) our politicans.

4 Companies own "our" 17 nuclear plants. Each makes 1 Euro Million profit per day. That´s the ONLY reason they still operate and risk all our lives (they don´t want competition = less costs for consumers)... Don´t let yourself be fooled by those who own the plants, but inform yourself from different sources.

 

[Ferminal]

It´s all about the (Paper/Fiat-)Money. In Germany 28% energy comes from nuclear plants, and Germany exports Energy. So we could live without nuclear plants, if big companies would not be owned by greedy psychopaths who influence (bribe) our politicans.

4 Companies own "our" 17 nuclear plants. Each makes 1 Euro Million profit per day. That´s the ONLY reason they still operate and risk all our lives (they don´t want competition = less costs for consumers)... Don´t let yourself be fooled by those who own the plants, but inform yourself from different sources.

Germany has managed their energy supply better than most. Efficiency measures and strong promotion of renewables, if you continue to see improvements in those areas the NPPs could probably be phased out over the next 10-20 years. But an "immediate shutdown" doesn't seem too feasible.

http://www.iea.org/stats/electricitydata.asp?COUNTRY_CODE=DE (2008)

Nuclear: 148495 GWh
Net Exports of electricity: 20100 GWh
Total exports of electricity: 61770 GWh

So even if you stopped all exports, you would still have a rather large hole in your electricity supply, especially your base load supply.

It seems to be too much of a political football though for there to be unilateral support for a staggered phase-out.

Article on this subject:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/us-germany-renewables-idUSTRE72F2RD20110316

"(Reuters) - German renewable industry lobby BEE said on Wednesday it would be able to supply 47 percent of German power requirements by 2020, joining a debate on how to replace nuclear generation capacity.

The lobby, which groups 22 individual units representing wind, hydro, solar and biomass-to-power producer interests, said it could offer a high share of reliable renewable supply.

"Renewables could be ready to provide 47 percent of German power supply up to 2020. This way they would not just compensate for the nuclear withdrawal (meant to happen by 2021 at the latest) but in addition offer affordable and sustainable power," the group said.

Last year, renewable power supplied 17 percent of German electricity output of 585 billion kilowatt hours, while nuclear generation accounted for 23 percent, industry data shows."

-----------------------------------

Fairly big news this one, but only temporary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...s-safety-review/2011/03/16/ABZHUld_story.html

BEIJING — In a dramatic reversal, China’s State Council, or cabinet, announced Wednesday that it was suspending approval for all new nuclear power plants until the government could issue revised safety rules, in light of the unfolding crisis at the Fukushima nuclear facility in Japan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Ferminal,

i have different numbers (from ARD-Report last night, so i can´t print it here), but even if Germany would have a "hole", a immediate shutdown would be possible. In extrem situations, extrem decisions are possible (for example if tomorrow one of "our" NPP explodes), and if the political will is there. But for now, the greedy owners of "our" 4 big companies have too much power.

 

[Ferminal]

Ferminal,

i have different numbers (from ARD-Report last night, so i can´t print it here),

The IEA stats are more or less an energy information bible, but they take a while to come out (2008 are the most recent stats for most indicators). Any newer stats you would expect an increase in renewables.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Germany has managed their energy supply better than most. Efficiency measures and strong promotion of renewables, if you continue to see improvements in those areas the NPPs could probably be phased out over the next 10-20 years. But an "immediate shutdown" doesn't seem too feasible.

http://www.iea.org/stats/electricitydata.asp?COUNTRY_CODE=DE (2008)

Nuclear: 148495 GWh
Net Exports of electricity: 20100 GWh
Total exports of electricity: 61770 GWh

So even if you stopped all exports, you would still have a rather large hole in your electricity supply, especially your base load supply.

It seems to be too much of a political football though for there to be unilateral support for a staggered phase-out.

You said it, man. (spoken with Jamaican accent, or like Jesus in Big Lebowski)
Some people in this country here are really shortbrained and like to play football, even before Japan had stopped shaking few days ago.
Usual suspects stop at noting and have no ethics.

I would also like to see the numbers of nuclear electricity we import from France in general, and what the numbers are when they shut it all down.

 

[Cobblestoned]

This is not looking good now.
I mean, they really attempted to cool this down with some helicopters and firebrigade - but stopped it because of radioactivity. This shows how lost and desperate the situation is.

Out of control now.

IAEA: Situation very serious

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I thought he said you guys were exporting energy from nuclear out of Germany?

So we could live without nuclear plants, if big companies would not be owned by greedy psychopaths who influence (bribe) our politicans.

I'm not anti-nukes, per se. But as to greedy people bribing politicians, and paper/fiat currency, that sounds very much like the US. Very much. Our country is starting to resemble something between the Wiemar Republic and Tsarist Russia. It's a plutocratic government owned by the elite, brokered by a debased currency, with hundreds of thousands of people in poverty, or right on the edge. Energy is only part of the equation.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

You said it, man. (spoken with Jamaican accent, or like Jesus in Big Lebowski)
Some people in this country here are really shortbrained and like to play football, even before Japan had stopped shaking few days ago.
Usual suspects stop at noting and have no ethics.

I would also like to see the numbers of nuclear electricity we import from France in general, and what the numbers are when they shut it all down.

Actually i said "we" export as Alpe understood correctly.

And if you think i am shortbrained because i love Football instead of boring, boring soccer; that shows you are "shortbrained". I played both (and Baseball); the absolute fun comes with Football. I thank America for the greatest sport ever.

Would you like to be called shortbrained only because a few of us are still Cycling- and Ulle-Fans? Mann o mann, i am speechless.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I thought he said you guys were exporting energy from nuclear out of Germany?



I'm not anti-nukes, per se. But as to greedy people bribing politicians, and paper/fiat currency, that sounds very much like the US. Very much. Our country is starting to resemble something between the Wiemar Republic and Tsarist Russia. It's a plutocratic government owned by the elite, brokered by a debased currency, with hundreds of thousands of people in poverty, or right on the edge. Energy is only part of the equation.

Yep, we are in the same boat. It all starts with the "Über-FED" and from there the "cancer" is spread all over the world. Some countries try to fight it off (like Morales in Bolivia). I wish them all the luck, power and perseverance.

What´s funny in your country is, that some pipo buy that crap of "communism comes" when every time people want to hold off your greedy super-rich owners. But no people fought against the Bail-Out. Sometimes i feel people are brainwashed by Fox-News like North-Koreans are brainwashed by Kim.

 

[python]

TEPCO has released estimates of the levels of core damage.

NEI: '70% damage at Unit 1 and 33% at Unit 2. They have also stated that Unit 1 is being adequately cooled'.

mind you, 'damaged' does not equal 'melted'. merely, that potential cracks in fuel cladding may be leaking radioactivity. as long as the primary containment is intact, which is the case for the unit 1 if the reports are to be taken at face value, any raise in off-site radioactivity is not likely.

there is less clarity about the unit 2 primary containment, which was reported to experience hydrogen explosion in the suppression chamber...

 

[Cobblestoned]

Actually i said "we" export as Alpe understood correctly.

And if you think i am shortbrained because i love Football instead of boring, boring soccer; that shows you are "shortbrained". I played both (and Baseball); the absolute fun comes with Football. I thank America for the greatest sport ever.

Would you like to be called shortbrained only because a few of us are still Cycling- and Ulle-Fans? Mann o mann, i am speechless.

Master Foxy, it is IMPRESSIVE how wrong you took my post. Really.
I wasn't even referring to you. I was talking to Ferminal.

We (also) IMPORT nuclear electricity from France. Is this correct or not ?
I just wondered about the numbers. If it is not correct that we import from France, my information bzw. my memory failed.
It would be absurd if we shut it down and keep on importing french nuclear eletricity, and even more if we have to compensate missing power.

I wasn't even doing any American Football or Football/Soccer comparing, dude. I was referring to Ferminal's nice expression of "political football".

The rest of your babbling attack is nonsense either.
What has my post to do with Ullrich ?
You should really cool down and read and understand better, before you talk to me next time.
Wie peinlich kann man sein ?

Think about it, and then there should come a big SORRY to me. But I don't need it.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

"... Some people in this country here are really shortbrained and like to play football ..."

Doesn´t mean Germany, huh? Or is Ferminal from here? Since there aint other germans around now, i know you meant me. So no need for excuses by you: Wie peinlich kann man sein? Well, you know it, since your last attack against me in the "Ulle-Thread".

 

[Cobblestoned]

"... Some people in this country here are really shortbrained and like to play football ..."

Doesn´t mean Germany, huh? Or is Ferminal from here? Since there aint other germans around now, i know you meant me. So no need for excuses by you: Wie peinlich kann man sein? Well, you know it, since your last attack against me in the "Ulle-Thread".

Master Foxxy, I don't care about you.

When I was talking about some people, I was only talking about babbling politicians and people demonstrating in front of nuclear power stations, when Japan was still shaking and these poor people were still gasping for breath caught in tsunami wave few days ago.
I was not talking about you, not to you and neither did I want to attack especially you. If you belong to those people I meant, then you are free to feel attacked and me beeing upset with those people.

This has nothing to do with things I told you elsewhere. But I am 100% sure that you confirmed me and my impressions about you - and now you are even going on.

This not the right place and time to behave like you do it here.
Now stand your man or stop.

 

[scribe]

Geez, this bunch has become a sick lot. How can the ad hominem attacks and such happen in this thread? I hate that about cyclists posting. What I like about cyclists posting is their attention to detail and ability to bring up useful information. Can there not be more of the good stuff here and less of the insults?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Master Foxxy

Why don´t you write me a PM, instead of disturbing here?

 

[palmerq]

could mr cobblestoned and brown please stay on the topic of thread and ease off with the insults please.

 

[palmerq]

Why don´t you write me a PM, instead of disturbing here?

yes that's a good idea.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Geez, this bunch has become a sick lot. How can the ad hominem attacks and such happen in this thread? I hate that about cyclists posting. What I like about cyclists posting is their attention to detail and ability to bring up useful information. Can there not be more of the good stuff here and less of the insults?

It is amazing how much it seems everyone wants’ to argue about the Nuke's. This is what it is a disaster and instead of adding valuable information we are getting arguments and ...statements for example....this thing is getting bad ...hope yall like it...or something like that. It is seriously insensitive.

I have to worry enough about my ex-wife and daughter and ex-in-laws etc. while they are over there and I was coming to the sight to try and read some different insight from other sources..for example Ferminal, python, and a few others seem to have better information than I can get from the stupid *** news we get here in the United States. Instead I have to see everyone almost happy this Nuke plant is catching hell. As if that is what the Japanese at TEPCO wanted to happen. WTF

 

[redtreviso]

I know..lets deregulate nuclear energy...the companies that build and operate nuclear power stations wouldn't risk their moral reputations by taking shortcuts on safety..Ayn Rand would know what is best. Now watch this drive.

 

[flicker]

If everything is going right nukes are perfectly safe, safer than a space shuttle mission. However seeing as we don't live in a perfect world.....