Nuclear disaster in Japan and wider Nuclear discussion

[Clearly Unstable]

Can't do anything about that. I was just relaying an item from a news agency because it was an important news item that did not seem to get the medias' attention.
The conclusion they would have not had a problem is totally your own, it certainly is not stated anywhere.

Maybe you gave more weight than deserved to this paragraph :

A nuclear safety agency official who declined to be named said: "We can't say that the lapses listed in the (February 28) report did not have an influence on the chain of events leading to this crisis."We will conduct thorough research on TEPCO's activities up until this crisis but that will come afterwards. For now we are only working on saving the plant."

But I guess I was myself reading in your message a personal attack that was not there.

Glad your ex-wife and daughter are fine.
Japan and Japanese do not deserve the likes of TEPCO.

Mainstream media has the world thinking they're trying to save humanity while the truth is they're trying to save the plant so it can be used in the future. All along the public was only in danger from the sensationalistic media imo.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Can't do anything about that. I was just relaying an item from a news agency because it was an important news item that did not seem to get the medias' attention.
The conclusion they would have not had a problem is totally your own, it certainly is not stated anywhere.

Maybe you gave more weight than deserved to this paragraph :

A nuclear safety agency official who declined to be named said: "We can't say that the lapses listed in the (February 28) report did not have an influence on the chain of events leading to this crisis."We will conduct thorough research on TEPCO's activities up until this crisis but that will come afterwards. For now we are only working on saving the plant."

But I guess I was myself reading in your message a personal attack that was not there.

Glad your ex-wife and daughter are fine.
Japan and Japanese do not deserve the likes of TEPCO.

I posted from my phone so I did not have the time to explain my post. Yes that paragraph seemed to me that the report you gave was (in my opinion) trying to say that TEPCO and their lack of safety / control and quality contributed to this.

It is tough to actually post from a phone and I apologize for the hasty post.

 

[Le breton]

Mainstream media has the world thinking they're trying to save humanity while the truth is they're trying to save the plant so it can be used in the future. All along the public was only in danger from the sensationalistic media imo.

They tried that at the beginning but had to give on several reactors within a couple of days. When I find the statement from Japan saying that they will never run the Daiichi reactors again i will post it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents

This lengthy report details the situation as of now. Go to the part about radiation and you will see that the public has already been affected and that the future is pretty bleak over a large area of the country. Luckily for Tokyo the wind has been blowing the plume towards the ocean most days

 

[Le breton]

So far Fukushima = 10% Chernobyl

http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pr...ioactivite-rejets-fukushima-terme-source.aspx

It's in French but it is an important piece of information.

In case you don't watch the Tour w/o subtitles, somebody was telling me yesterday that google translate really does a good job nowadays, so you could try that.

 

[Cobblestones]

http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_pr...ioactivite-rejets-fukushima-terme-source.aspx

It's in French but it is an important piece of information.

In case you don't watch the Tour w/o subtitles, somebody was telling me yesterday that google translate really does a good job nowadays, so you could try that.

Chernobyl had a fire burning for several days. There's nothing better suited to pump radioactivity in the atmosphere and the spread around the globe than a huge bonfire. So far, the Fukushima plant has only seen minor fires. So I can believe 1 Fukushima = 10% Chernobyl

 

[Martin318is]

Not sure if anyone has linked to this already but there is a great site called XKCD that hosts a blog and some other things. here is a post that was put up with a chart discussing relative radiation exposures and the current crisis.

XKCD Radiation Blog and Chart

and here is the link he refers to - to the researcher's own chart and explanation

Researcher's intro to radiation

 

[Le breton]

Not sure if anyone has linked to this already but there is a great site called XKCD that hosts a blog and some other things. here is a post that was put up with a chart discussing relative radiation exposures and the current crisis.

XKCD Radiation Blog and Chart

and here is the link he refers to - to the researcher's own chart and explanation

Researcher's intro to radiation

Thanks, quitwe useful.
Also reminded me of the great great MIT website
http://mitnse.com/

 

[python]

just to add more perspective to the various radiation units appearing above and in various sources.

the most frequently quoted unit of dose (or dose rate per hour) is sievert or its fractions - micro sievert (uSv) and mili sievert (mSv).

but the unit that is still widely used by the nuclear trade professionals is millirem (dose) or millirem per hour (dose rate).

1 sievert=100 rem.
1 millisievert (mSv) = 100 millirem (mrem)

so, according to nuclear energy institute (nei),
http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandeven...anese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
the dose rate around the periphery of the fukushima plant as of yesterday was 1-3 mrem/hr.

how much is it ?

well, in most commercial nuclear facilities, the radiological grading scale starts at 0 to 5 mrem/hr. iow, this is considered the lowest level radiation area for grading purposes inside a facility.

sure enough, when this level is measured at a plant’s gate, that’s very-very serious.

but it helps to put things into a perspective as currently hundreds of workers are toiling around the plant trying to restore cooling and the electricity. they only are rotated more frequently than if nothing happened to the plant. they are not necessarily exceeding their legal individual yearly exposure limits.

by any means, this is very serious but not a Chernobyl yet by a long shot.

also, here is a very interesting independent assessment of the radiological situation around fukushima by an independent solid source, the american government department of energy. great slides.

http://blog.energy.gov/content/situation-japan/

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I wonder what dose mrem/hr the people doing the work up close are getting. Any info on that?

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Perhaps the point was not well expressed and you simply misunderstood it. Since the points you appear to be arguing with were not about estimation of probable PGA based on proximity to faults or ground conditions, I suspect you have not understood what was intended.

Your posts seem to indicate that you are of the opinion that, for a given event, shaking intensity does not generally decrease as distance from the epicenter increases (local geotech considerations aside). Would care to contribute to the discussion by expanding on what you actually meant? (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, based on the assumption that anyone who can simultaneously breath and use a keyboard can't be that stupid <edited by mod>.)

python, your reply is largely along the lines of what i was originally trying to say. I edited my post in a (probably futile) effort to be clearer

I forget about this thread but I see you reply. My post pertained to the erroneous post of the other poster about EQ design not being for quakes 150 km away. That is an assinine statement.

You then reply that basically closer quakes cause more shaking. Duh. In other news the world is round and fire is hot. I am unsure of the relevancy of this obvious statement by you except to somehow imply this is some confusing concept to attack me. It is not.

I would appreciate it if you didn't back door ad hominem attack me by using the term "***". Of course this went unpunished by our impartial mod team though I am sure this post will get edited and I will get warned by me calling you on your shenanigans here. I know people with learning disabilites and the term "***" to attack me is not appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Le breton]

volunteer

We need a volunteer to translate Skandar Akbar's last post into English (or Spanish or French).
Or is it necessary?

 

[patricknd]

We need a volunteer to translate Skandar Akbar's last post into English (or Spanish or French).
Or is it necessary?

and perhaps at the same time someone to translate yours into non-***.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Dangerous breach feared at Japan nuke site

just heard on CNN breaking news... Japaneese workers trying to establish electrical services to equipment at the #3 reactor were contaminated. They were able to sample the contaminated water they were standing in. Reportedly, in serveral hours they will know what isotopes are in the contaminated water, which should give them some idea WHERE in the reactor the water came from... of course the worst being the reactor's core.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42263856/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

 

[flicker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sakN2hSVxA&NR=1

"Diplomacy is the art of having other people have it your way"

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

That clip must have been made by someone in Japan, because the "diaper" has not yet been put on poor nuclear boy, AND (as you say) a little bit of artful diplomacy going on there. The diaper would be something like the Chernobyl solution... sand, boron, and concrete all mixed together in one big cocoon or poo pile. At any rate, it was an entertaining clip.

 

[flicker]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june11/chernobyl_03-29.html

 

[flicker]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110402/wl_nm/us_japan_quake

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Got to hand it to the Soviets, I mean Russians, I mean Ukranians. They have done I think a pretty good job capitalizing on their cold war history and mishaps like this.

Tour Pripyat and Chernobyl here!

Want a different tour company? No problem. Capitalism at it's finest gives us choices!

Matter of fact, there's a lot of cool post-Cold War things to see there. Shoot guns, look at nuclear missiles, and party when you're done! All from one convenient tour agent.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

U.S. Rad Data before and after the Japan quake

Here is a link showing radiation data in the U.S. and Territories before and after the 9+ earthquake in Japan. http://www.epa.gov/japan2011/

Click on the U.S. map and then select the pink or blue dots (links) to view plots of the radiation data for that location. Pink links seem to have more complete data than the blue links.
Link to the U.S. & Territories map: U.S. Map of Rad Data Locations

Here are example plots of the gross gamma and gross beta measured before and after the quake for the Los Angeles area. Not much difference in the rad levels before and after the disaster, consistent with what has been reported by the media. The website explains the "spikes" in the plots (e.g. of gross beta) to be the result of electrical noise or interference.

Some other useful links:

International Atomic Energy Agency

National Energy Institute

Japanese Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency in english

U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
.

 

[usedtobefast]

i hope the 'nuclear power is safe' movement is dying faster than these reactors
and spent fuel rods.
"no mas!!!" to quote a famous boxer.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Roberto Duran vs Leonard? THAT no mas?

 

[usedtobefast]

Roberto Duran vs Leonard? THAT no mas?

yes sir......

 

[Ferminal]

i hope the 'nuclear power is safe' movement is dying faster than these reactors
and spent fuel rods.
"no mas!!!" to quote a famous boxer.

Actually, I'd say the "nuclear power is safe" movement is strengthening as a result (see Monbiot vs Caldicott). Whilst at the same time the popular view of "nuclear power is the most dangerous thing in the world" is also gaining momentum due to the hyperbole in the reporting of the crisis.

 

[Merckx index]

i hope the 'nuclear power is safe' movement is dying faster than these reactors
and spent fuel rods.
"no mas!!!" to quote a famous boxer.

Mr. No mas fought many more, and went into the Hall of Fame and is regarded by many as the greatest lightweight ever. And the nuclear movement will survive this. The question is not whether it's perfectly safe. The question is whether in the short term the feasible alternatives are any better.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

i hope the 'nuclear power is safe' movement is dying faster than these reactors
and spent fuel rods.
"no mas!!!" to quote a famous boxer.

This statement makes me wonder about something maybe someone could shed some light on. One of the dangers of nuclear power is dealing with the spent fuel, as the situation in Japan has shown. So we've got all these operating reactors around the world with spent fuel piling up in the pools.

1. Can someone tell me/us what the long term storage solution for this spent fuel is to eliminate or minimize the hazard?

In the U.S. I know Yucca Mountain, Nevada is the proposed repository for spent nuclear fuel. I thought this was modeled after what the French and Germans were doing. Sooooooo...

2. So what are other leading countries in the nuclear industry doing with their spent nuclear fuel?

3. Have those countries experienced any problems with their handling of spent fuel?