O Gran Camiño 2024, Spain, February 22-25

[GroupDK]

Pog lost 2022 and 2023. Vingo lost 2021. Who is making excuses?

"excuses" by relating to facts hence tdF2021?
Kontra you pulling it out of the blue, and something that Pogacar clearly explained wasn't the case.
but it goes without saying you can believe what you want... if you believe that Pogacar is lying, and you literally know his form better at that given moment then himself.. fair enough.

I'm only pointing out the status in 2021,.
It was not the plan that Jonas Vingegaard should even be at Tour De France 2021, he was nobody and certainly not somebody who had any meaningful role in the biggest race of the year, in regards to the TdF for a Team of Jumbo Vismas class...
It was in fact Tom Domulin who had the spot for TdF2021 when he suddenly announced in late April 2021 that he wanted a break in his career and Jumbo Visma suddenly had to find a replacement..
Article:

Jonas Vingegaard Replaces Tom Dumoulin At 2021 Tour de France - FloBikes

Jumbo Visma have officially replaced Tom Dumoulin's place at the Tour de France with young Danish rider Jonas Vingegaard.

www.flobikes.com

Jumbo Visma team rank: (article above)
Cap Primoz Roglic,
Lt. Steven Kruijswijk,
Wout van Aert,
Sepp Kuss,
Tony Martin,
Mike Teunissen,
Robert Gesink,
Jonas Vingegaard. (Last moment substitute for Tom Dumoulin)

Nobody had expected the fellow on the last mandate (as a last-moment substitute after doing well in Tour Basque / helping Roglic to the win) should do anything other than carry water, and help Lt. Steven Kruijswijk so he could be there for the Cap Roglic.
Jonas Vingegaard performed that role brilliantly in the first half of the TdF2021, and the GC was certainly not a priority when you look how he dropped minutes trying to help the leaders on the team,

 

[Samu Cuenca]

More like 2 actual GC TdF attempts (2022 & 2023)
If I recall In 2021, Vingegaard was added as the last dude in the JV TdF troop and lowest in the JV-tour hierarchy - 100% helper for both Lt. Kruijswijk & cap Roglic.
Why he act'ed as such, a dedicated helper with massive time drops trying to help Roglic's shortcomings, crashes etc, - when Roglic & Kruijswijk buckled and Vingegaard was still somewhat far up the charts (though like 5 to 6 minutes back from the front,) Jumbo Visma then flipped tactic and Vingegaard could ride for GC.

After that change of team priorities, he did seem stronger than Pogacar in the third week of the 2021 TdF and even managed to drop Pogacar at times, but was so far behind in the GC that the overall win was simply not realistic.
If I recall correctly' Vingegaard got it down from like just under 6 minutes to a tad under 5 minutes in the last week of 2021 TdF


Not least Vingegaards move on the Mount Ventoux TdF stage 2021 where we all were gobsmacked when Pogacar dropped' in the small hope that we had a new dude that actually could compete with the champ.
- and a real fight on our hands.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi9_eyQPt2U

Vingegaard was only supposed to be a helper for Roglič in 2021.
They were, at least officially, hoping to keep Kruijswijk up there in GC for as long as possible, but Vingegaard had definitely had the better season and was for sure already no. 2 in the team after SK lost time on day 1.

Vingegaard only dropped Pogačar on Ventoux, and that didn't matter when he didn't push on in the descent. To be fair to him, he was only completely smashed by Pogačar on a stage where he had crashed and on the day after, but by then Pogačar had already pretty much secured the overall victory and didn't have to take any unnecessary risks. The only time Vingegaard took back some seconds was in the final ITT, but he was also riding for his 2nd place against Carapaz while Pogačar just had to finish to win the race.

The difference at the start of the 3rd week was 5:32, then it went up to 5:45 before it ended at 5:20. Vingegaard lost almost a minute to Pogačar by having to wait for Roglič on day 3 and even more to Carapaz, so he was clearly the second strongest rider in the race, but there was not really much doubt about who the best one was either.

 

[scribers]

"excuses" by relating to facts hence tdF2021?
Kontra you pulling it out of the blue, and something that Pogacar clearly explained wasn't the case.
but it goes without saying you can believe what you want... if you believe that Pogacar is lying, and you literally know his form better at that given moment then himself.. fair enough.

I'm only pointing out the status in 2021,.
It was not the plan that Jonas Vingegaard should even be at Tour De France 2021, he was nobody and certainly not somebody who had any meaningful role in the biggest race of the year, in regards to the TdF for a Team of Jumbo Vismas class...
It was in fact Tom Domulin who had the spot for TdF2021 when he suddenly announced in late April 2021 that he wanted a break in his career and Jumbo Visma suddenly had to find a replacement..
Article:

Jonas Vingegaard Replaces Tom Dumoulin At 2021 Tour de France - FloBikes

Jumbo Visma have officially replaced Tom Dumoulin's place at the Tour de France with young Danish rider Jonas Vingegaard.

www.flobikes.com

Jumbo Visma team rank: (article above)
Cap Primoz Roglic,
Lt. Steven Kruijswijk,
Wout van Aert,
Sepp Kuss,
Tony Martin,
Mike Teunissen,
Robert Gesink,
Jonas Vingegaard. (Last moment substitute for Tom Dumoulin)

Nobody had expected the fellow on the last mandate (as a last-moment substitute after doing well in Tour Basque / helping Roglic to the win) should do anything other than carry water, and help Lt. Steven Kruijswijk so he could be there for the Cap Roglic.
Jonas Vingegaard performed that role brilliantly in the first half of the TdF2021, and the GC was certainly not a priority when you look how he dropped minutes trying to help the leaders on the team,

I’m glad you point out Vingo coming out of nowhere. Look at his one day race results too.

I think that’s weird. Don’t you think that’s weird?

 

[GroupDK]

Vingegaard was only supposed to be a helper for Roglič in 2021.
They were, at least officially, hoping to keep Kruijswijk up there in GC for as long as possible, but Vingegaard had definitely had the better season and was for sure already no. 2 in the team after SK lost time on day 1.

Vingegaard only dropped Pogačar on Ventoux, and that didn't matter when he didn't push on in the descent. To be fair to him, he was only completely smashed by Pogačar on a stage where he had crashed and on the day after, but by then Pogačar had already pretty much secured the overall victory and didn't have to take any unnecessary risks. The only time Vingegaard took back some seconds was in the final ITT, but he was also riding for his 2nd place against Carapaz while Pogačar just had to finish to win the race.

The difference at the start of the 3rd week was 5:32, then it went up to 5:45 before it ended at 5:20. Vingegaard lost almost a minute to Pogačar by having to wait for Roglič on day 3 and even more to Carapaz, so he was clearly the second strongest rider in the race, but there was not really much doubt about who the best one was either.

It obviously makes no sense to second-guess the 2021 result.
There is one deserving winner, and that is Pogacar by quite a margin, no doubt about that.

Sure, one can always wonder about, what if JVisma had entered with Vingegaard with GC ambitions and not as a crude helper for Roglic & Steven Kruijswijk.. - but its nonsense, as it will be guesswork for lack of better.
But the pattern is there... the third week of Tour de France, 21, 22, 23 Vingegaard just seems to have the edge on Pogacar.
If Pogacar can keep his mojo going for 3 weeks.. he will win, hands down, as he got that critical explosive factor to obtain bonus seconds & finish-lines.. - a feature that Vingegaard also admits that he can't muster, and envies a lot on Pogacar..

 

[GroupDK]

I’m glad you point out Vingo coming out of nowhere. Look at his one day race results too.

I think that’s weird. Don’t you think that’s weird?

Sorry bud, It's getting tiresome, trying to give you the benefit of the doubt..
No thx, Im out.. talk with somebody else.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It obviously makes no sense to second-guess the 2021 result.
There is one deserving winner, and that is Pogacar by quite a margin, no doubt about that.

Sure, one can always wonder about, what if JVisma had entered with Vingegaard with GC ambitions and not as a crude helper for Roglic & Steven Kruijswijk.. - but its nonsense, as it will be guesswork for lack of better.
But the pattern is there... the third week of Tour de France, 21, 22, 23 Vingegaard just seems to have the edge on Pogacar.
If Pogacar can keep his mojo going for 3 weeks.. he will win, hands down, as he got that critical explosive factor to obtain bonus seconds & finish-lines.. - a feature that Vingegaard also admits that he can't muster, and envies a lot on Pogacar..

You simply cannot say he had the edge in the third week in 2021 when there isn't any proof.
That's like saying Olav Kooij had the edge on Tim Merlier in UAE, because he beat TM by a few cm on a stage where TM was out of position and allegedly also had a slow puncture.

 

[scribers]

People get really sensitive about Vingo. Very difficult having conversations with them. Very sensitive and prone to anger

 

[GroupDK]

You simply cannot say he had the edge in the third week in 2021 when there isn't any proof.
That's like saying Olav Kooij had the edge on Tim Merlier in UAE, because he beat TM by a few cm on a stage where TM was out of position and allegedly also had a slow puncture.

You are likely putting too much weight into the word "having the edge"

But doing something that most people saw as unthinkable in 2021, as in Pogacar getting dropped on the biggest final stage Mount Ventoux by Nr2 in the GC, and managing to decrease the time gap over that week in total.
I would refer to it - as Vingegaard had the edge on Pogacar in the third week of TdF2021 and certainly not vice versa.

Its the best thing that could happen for the Tour, as the last thing I wanted to see are Pogacar cruising it home year after year without any real combatants.
It's entertainment, let them entertain, who and what team wins.. who cares, it doesn't mean jack,
it's all about the context... entertain' with some jaw-dropping fascinating cycling, & where the result ain't given upfront.
Pogacar & Vingegaard are the two best riders by quite a margin, and it's a joy to watch them clash.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You are likely putting too much weight into the word "having the edge"

But doing something that most people saw as unthinkable in 2021, as in Pogacar getting dropped on the biggest final stage Mount Ventoux by Nr2 in the GC, and managing to decrease the time gap over that week in total.
I would refer to it - as Vingegaard had the edge on Pogacar in the third week of TdF2021 and certainly not vice versa.

Certainly, the best thing that could happen, as the last thing I wanted to see, was Pogacar cruising it home year after year without any real combatants.
It's entertainment, let them entertain, who and what team wins.. who cares, it doesn't mean jack,
it's all about the context... entertain' with some jaw-dropping fascinating cycling, & where the result ain't given upfront.
Pogacar & Vingegaard are the two best by quite a margin, and it's a joy to watch them clash.

Your point falls flat when the main stage your basing your argument on happened in the second week. Also Pogačar easily beat Vingegaard to the line on two MTFs in week 3 (he failed to make a difference before the sprints, but so did Vingegaard). Sure, Pogačar was not as dominant in week 3, which may or may not have been because he held back a little, but he was still the strongest.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

People get really sensitive about Vingo. Very difficult having conversations with them. Very sensitive and prone to anger

There's another rider out there, that folk get really sensitive about.

 

[The Clogger]

I can call that Pogi will be *** if he finishes the Giro first.

How sure can you be? I mean, how long time is it since someone as good as Pogacar tried to do Giro-Tour? Cycling changed, nutritionally we are in a different place than earlier. If he can get through the Giro with a few good ITTs and some mountain sprints, maybe Giro will just be good training for him. Personally, I think he will reach the same top level as he did in TDF 2023.

 

[The Clogger]

I’m glad you point out Vingo coming out of nowhere. Look at his one day race results too.

I think that’s weird. Don’t you think that’s weird?

People are "sensitive" you say, but you have a hard time hiding your agenda

 

[Netserk]

How sure can you be? I mean, how long time is it since someone as good as Pogacar tried to do Giro-Tour? Cycling changed, nutritionally we are in a different place than earlier. If he can get through the Giro with a few good ITTs and some mountain sprints, maybe Giro will just be good training for him. Personally, I think he will reach the same top level as he did in TDF 2023.

Froome managed well, and I'm sure that Pogi will be in the fight for a podium too. But no way that he performs better than ever with the Giro in his legs, and that is needed to fight for the win.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Not quite, as Pogacar as the bonafide champ he is, are weirdly honest about these things, so people don't have to make false excuses on his behalf.
He does it again & again when Vingegaard puts pedal to the metal, even on the radio, as we also saw at the 2023 Tour de France
"Im gone, Im dead"

View: https://youtu.be/HILcYXf8yqc?si=tEYo94cqZ7lvTsT7&t=1

You're not being honest. Pogacar didn't crack because your countryman "put the pedal to the metal". INEOS was pushing at the time when he got dropped and the GC group was fairly big for any standards. After that he was just managing his podium with Mr. Marc Soler. What came as a very early crack at Col de la Loze likely points to Pogacar lack of preparation due to his wrist injury.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Froome managed well, and I'm sure that Pogi will be in the fight for a podium too. But no way that he performs better than ever with the Giro in his legs, and that is needed to fight for the win.

Yup. I also think that some good circumstances are needed (i.e. Vingo's and Rogla's bad luck) for Pogi to win the Tour with Giro in his legs.

 

[Froome]

I’m glad you point out Vingo coming out of nowhere. Look at his one day race results too.

I think that’s weird. Don’t you think that’s weird?

Vingegaard won at the alpe d'huez in 2017.

 

[Froome]

Your point falls flat when the main stage your basing your argument on happened in the second week. Also Pogačar easily beat Vingegaard to the line on two MTFs in week 3 (he failed to make a difference before the sprints, but so did Vingegaard). Sure, Pogačar was not as dominant in week 3, which may or may not have been because he held back a little, but he was still the strongest.

In some cases Pogacar didn't held back a little. Probably he didn't go full gas on the ITT and Luz ardiden, but he gave everything on col de portet (mont ventoux also gave everything), and he didn't show superiority to vingegaard on that long climbs( it was a presage).

 

[Netserk]

Yup. I also think that some good circumstances are needed (i.e. Vingo's and Rogla's bad luck) for Pogi to win the Tour with Giro in his legs.

If everything goes well, maybe he can be as strong in the Tour as Vingegaard was in the Vuelta. Certainly if he reaches his best level in the Giro. But more than that would be very surprising.

 

[125C]

I saw Bernal getting dropped on a baby climb, he didn't do well. Again, I don't think or view comments in negatives & positives whenever I make or read a post because it is irrelevant.

Merry Christmas!

You can keep saying that yourself I guess but no one in their right mind actually believes you. You saw Bernal drop a tonne of WT GC guys and then immediately decided to talk negatively because he was dropped by the best climber in the peloton.

 

[scribers]

People are "sensitive" you say, but you have a hard time hiding your agenda

What agenda is that? I chat cycling. I don’t get butt sore over a rider I don’t even know. Vingo fans are particularly fragile. Look in this thread. He wins I Camino in dominating fashion over Bernal, and they wish to speak of his historical greatness. Erm, excuse me

 

[scribers]

There's another rider out there, that folk get really sensitive about.

Contador!

 

[The Clogger]

What agenda is that? I chat cycling. I don’t get butt sore over a rider I don’t even know. Vingo fans are particularly fragile. Look in this thread. He wins I Camino in dominating fashion over Bernal, and they wish to speak of his historical greatness. Erm, excuse me

I quoted you on it. Seems like you have a hard time accepting Vingegaard is the best stage racer. One would say you're very sensitive to his results. I think you will have a tough year

 

[scribers]

I quoted you on it. Seems like you have a hard time accepting Vingegaard is the best stage racer. One would say you're very sensitive to his results. I think you will have a tough year

He needs to win a little more and then I’ll accept it a little more factually. He is really good. Great? Yes. All time great? Lol

 

[Cookster15]

Vingegaard won at the alpe d'huez in 2017.

Can you post a link? As for Scribers comment that Vingegaard came out of nowhere, IMO he is right. I just checked pre 2021 TdF odds. Vingegaard wasn't even listed anywhere, likely as he was only Roglic's mountain domestique until Roglic crashed on stage 3.

This link is an example what I found (dated June 2021). Other sites with odds don't list Vingo either.

Tour de France 2021 odds, predictions: Proven cycling expert locks in surprising picks, best bets

SportsLine's Gene Menez correctly predicted the winners of the yellow, green and white jerseys in the 2019 Tour de France

www.cbssports.com

 

[scribers]

Sometimes guys bloom at different times. Look at tratnik. I can accept Vingo turned a sharp corner. But it’s worth discussing