Of Doping, and Hanging onto Cars

[Granville57]

There's been an accusation by Movistar and Tyler Farrar simply said he was surprised a guy could win after being dropped 70km from the finish.

Tyler was furious (by his own standards) during his post-race interview with Robbie Ventura. He was absolutely seething, and Ventura found it so unusual that he kept pressing Tyler for the source of his frustration.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/43785330#43785330

Cav made a really remarkable comeback after being dropped by the gruppetto for about 70k yesterday, so it's a little frustrating to have him beat me so closely today.

Given his emotional state, I have to wonder if Tyler is going on more than just mere rumor?

It just to occurred to me that HTC could put the whole issue to rest pretty easily. They could provide footage themselves of one of Cav's climbs in its entirety. They could do so from a car, a moto or put a small camera on his bike as they did when filming Chasing Legends. (Although I'm not sure they used Cav's bike specifically when making the film. They did have them on some of the bikes though).

Just a thought.

 

[Hitchey]

Tyler is a pretty good guy and too classy to directly come out and say what was on his mind regarding this topic. It was all too clear however, what he implied and my assumption would be that he knows something that we don't.

"people", as in more than one rider, don't generally make these things up.

I for one, would be very happy to see cav banned if he actually held on. He is cheating the other guys in the sprints.

 

[Anonymous]

They should put a TV moto on Cav for the Alpe d'Huez stage and stream the footage live on letour.fr. If he then makes it through that stage within the time cut he can make it through anything.

Actually, stage 18 would be a better bet. Three HC climbs, if he has been hanging on cars, he has not shot on that stage to make the time cut...and as with any accusation, it isn't what you accuse them of, it's what you can prove. I feel pretty certain that he did it, but you have to catch him for it to matter. I would think that he will be pretty well watched on Stage 18.

 

[Ragerod]

Tyler was furious (by his own standards) during his post-race interview with Robbie Ventura. He was absolutely seething, and Ventura found it so unusual that he kept pressing Tyler for the source of his frustration.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/43785330#43785330

Given his emotional state, I have to wonder if Tyler is going on more than just mere rumor?

I saw the interview and the reporter forced it out of Farrar but he never said anything about hanging onto cars or doping but simply that he was surprised Cavendish could get dropped so early yet still get back.

I'm sure it's the truth and Cavendish probably was dropped at some point over the preceding three Cols (the distance given a guess) but its entirely plausible that Cavendish set his own pace over them and - as he alluded to in his winner's interview - used the HTC train to TTT back to the grupetto before the start of Plateau d'Beille.

 

[131313]

As has been pointed out holding onto a car and successfully doping are very,very different.

I really don't see it that way...

If there is evidence it hasn't been ignored, it simply hasn't been highlighted. However, I doubt there is any actual evidence or accurate times of Cavendish and others climbing Mt. Etna because a journalist would've written that article.

Indeed. Because the cycling press has certainly been instrumental in flushing out cheating in the sport. Oh, wait...

I'm sorry, many of the responses on this thread strike me as EXACTLY the sort of apologist nonsense that gets parroted with respect to doping:

-every K is lined with spectators with cell phones! (no, they aren't. At least according to guys actually doing the race. 30K climbs have plenty of 600-800M sections without a soul. And the directors have eyes. And radios.)

-we can just time them up the climbs! (um, unless you're recording time splits every hundred meters, what will that tell you, besides nothing? Two guys can go up the climb at the same time, one towing for half of it.

-the guys who complain are just bitter! (this is the fan's (and race organizer's) own little omerta. Gilbert complained about it but was afraid to even publicly admit it for fear of the backlash. If Gilbert isn't free to speak his mind, who is?

Sorry, the tone and language seems no different to me than that of the doping apologists. A couple of years ago he was practically riding in the car at the ToC on one of the climbs, so it's certainly nothing new. He hasn't been caught simply because the race organizers don't want him to get caught, simple as that. And, it's actually pretty easy not to get caught.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

It is interesting how the loudest mouthed and obnoxious riders (Cav, Armstrong, Ricco, ...) turn out to be the biggest cheaters. It has to be a type of compensation or way to suppress the guilt.

 

[131313]

I saw the interview and the reporter forced it out of Farrar but he never said anything about hanging onto cars or doping but simply that he was surprised Cavendish could get dropped so early yet still get back.

Maybe you could clarify what he meant when he said "he shouldn't be in the f$%ing race"? He only said it like 7 times...

I just saw Phil, Bob and Paul giving there excuses for Cav. It sure sounds like "never tested positive" to me.

 

[Escarabajo]

Tyler was furious (by his own standards) during his post-race interview with Robbie Ventura. He was absolutely seething, and Ventura found it so unusual that he kept pressing Tyler for the source of his frustration.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/43785330#43785330

Given his emotional state, I have to wonder if Tyler is going on more than just mere rumor?

....

If he was in the Grupetto with Cav and Saw him drop with 70 km to go, how can that be a rumor.

Then there is the live posts from members on this forum where they stated that according to Sporza radio Cav was still in between two of the climbs when the leaders were about to tackle the Plateau de Belle. I can see why other riders are ****ed. Somebody should make the calculations but the problem is that we need the photos and they are not coming. I hope the fans on the road take pictures next week on the Alps. Especially the short and hard Alpe d'Huez stage.

 

[Escarabajo]

I saw the interview and the reporter forced it out of Farrar but he never said anything about hanging onto cars or doping but simply that he was surprised Cavendish could get dropped so early yet still get back.

I'm sure it's the truth and Cavendish probably was dropped at some point over the preceding three Cols (the distance given a guess) but its entirely plausible that Cavendish set his own pace over them and - as he alluded to in his winner's interview - used the HTC train to TTT back to the grupetto before the start of Plateau d'Beille.

Well Tyler farrar would know this because he was in the Grupetto. So if he reached the grupetto just before Plateau de Belle then ask Farrar. That is probably why he said it, because he wasn't there and magically he arrived with the Grupetto.

126 Mikhail Ignatyev (Rus) Katusha Team 0:26:45
127 Jimmy Engoulvent (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
128 Jérémie Galland (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
129 Alessandro Petacchi (Ita) Lampre - ISD
130 Yohann Gene (Fra) Team Europcar
131 Tristan Valentin (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
132 Matthew Harley Goss (Aus) HTC-Highroad
133 Paolo Longo Borghini (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale
134 Benjamin Noval Gonzalez (Spa) Saxo Bank Sungard
135 Markel Irizar Aranburu (Spa) Team RadioShack
136 Tony Gallopin (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
137 Grega Bole (Slo) Lampre - ISD
138 José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios (Spa) Movistar Team
139 Brian Vandborg (Den) Saxo Bank Sungard
140 Arnaud Coyot (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
141 Maarten Tjallingii (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team
142 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Team Garmin-Cervelo
143 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Nor) Sky Procycling
144 Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu) Pro Team Astana
145 Jérémy Roy (Fra) FDJ
146 Denys Kostyuk (Ukr) Lampre - ISD
147 Ramunas Navardauskas (Ltu) Team Garmin-Cervelo
148 Maciej Paterski (Pol) Liquigas-Cannondale
149 Tyler Farrar (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo
150 Fabio Sabatini (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale
151 Laurens Ten Dam (Ned) Rabobank Cycling Team
152 Björn Leukemans (Bel) Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team
153 Anthony Delaplace (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
154 Romain Zingle (Bel) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
155 Francisco José Ventoso Alberdi (Spa) Movistar Team
156 Borut Bozic (Slo) Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team
157 Pablo Urtasun Perez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
158 Sergio Miguel Moreira Paulinho (Por) Team RadioShack
159 Lars Ytting Bak (Den) HTC-Highroad
160 Mark Renshaw (Aus) HTC-Highroad
161 Jonathan Hivert (Fra) Saur - Sojasun
162 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) HTC-Highroad 0:26:54
163 Danny Pate (USA) HTC-Highroad
164 Mark Cavendish (GBr) HTC-Highroad
165 Alessandro Vanotti (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale
166 Samuel Dumoulin (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne

 

[Escarabajo]

For photos of the HTC guys hanging onto de cars on Mt Etna ask Teo Sheva, a member on this forum.

 

[Granville57]

Given his emotional state, I have to wonder if Tyler is going on more than just mere rumor?

If he was in the Grupetto with Cav and Saw him drop with 70 km to go, how can that be a rumor.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I was referring to the rumor (my word) of Cav actually taking a tow. I don't know if Tyler saw that first hand or not, but the fact that he was so upset seems to imply that he had more to go on than just his own assumptions. Maybe someone in one of the Garmin cars confirmed? That's what I was trying to express.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Garmin should be formulating a plan to get pictures in future stages. Release them anonymously. The other sprint teams are definitely being cheated. It is no different than Cav testing positive for steroids.

 

[Martin318is]

This is the Tour de France, there are fans on every kilometer of every climb and I bet at least 50% of them have cameras or camera phones. There is just no way that Cavendish could spend more than a few seconds hanging on to a team car without pictures being taken.

Yes it is the Tour de France - where a rider like Cavendish would have a hard time NOT finding a fan on the side of the road willing to give him a shove.... just sayin....

it could be a while before anyone produces a photo, whether they have one or not.

 

[Martin318is]

I also think its a little pointless trying to catch Cavendish hanging onto a car in the Alpes.

Is he really likely to do it again with that much attention on him? He'd have to be utterly desperate to risk it now wouldn't he?

 

[Ragerod]

Maybe you could clarify what he meant when he said "he shouldn't be in the f$%ing race"? He only said it like 7 times...

Clearly you've seen an extended version because I've only seen this and it's mentioned once before the interviewer moves onto discussing the sprint. Although I would like you to point me in the direction of that interview.

Indeed. Because the cycling press has certainly been instrumental in flushing out cheating in the sport. Oh, wait...

Unlike yourself, the cycling press need evidence before they can report 'cheating activities' because they can be sued for defamation of character which leads to settlement agreements and damages the integrity of the publisher. Hence it's reported as Ventoso says.. or Landis claims..

It's not unreasonable to ask for proof and to presume someone is innocent without evidence and the accusations by Movistar riders and a comment by Farrar isn't evidence.

Well Tyler farrar would know this because he was in the Grupetto. So if he reached the grupetto just before Plateau de Belle then ask Farrar. That is probably why he said it, because he wasn't there and magically he arrived with the Grupetto.

My assumption would be that Farrar doesn't know exactly when they got back to the grupetto because it was fairly big and he was probably focusing on his own efforts only to notice Cavendish half way up.

For photos of the HTC guys hanging onto de cars on Mt Etna ask Teo Sheva, a member on this forum.

I saw the photos at the time and if I remember correctly Cavendish wasn't in them yet everyone was angry about Cavendish cheating and not about anyone else. There's enough circumstantial evidence to convince me that he got help up Mt Etna but in this instance there is not.

 

[rgmerk]

Data logging

I'm increasingly of the view that in all riders should be required to use an approved power meter with data logging, and provide that data to the Tour organizers every night.

Not only would it be useful information for the anti-doping investigators, it would be a way to check for this kind of infraction.

Indeed, if Cav wants to disprove the allegation, he could do so by providing his power meter data for the stage. I think I've seen an SRM crank and power meter on his bike?

 

[Ragerod]

I also think its a little pointless trying to catch Cavendish hanging onto a car in the Alpes.

Is he really likely to do it again with that much attention on him? He'd have to be utterly desperate to risk it now wouldn't he?

He or any other cyclist will only ever do it if they need to but I have my doubts about him making it through the Alps.

I'm increasingly of the view that in all riders should be required to use an approved power meter with data logging, and provide that data to the Tour organizers every night.

Not only would it be useful information for the anti-doping investigators, it would be a way to check for this kind of infraction.

Indeed, if Cav wants to disprove the allegation, he could do so by providing his power meter data for the stage. I think I've seen an SRM crank and power meter on his bike?

I would like that but it'll never happen.

 

[WildspokeJoe]

It's quite easy to tell if Cav was holding onto a car for any length of time.

Check out the photo of him winning today's stage.

If one of his arms is longer then the other while he's giving his victory salute, then obviously, he held on.

 

[Martin318is]

It's quite easy to tell if Cav was holding onto a car for any length of time.

Check out the photo of him winning today's stage.

If one of his arms is longer then the other while he's giving his victory salute, then obviously, he held on.

Nice!

Mind you, all you really need is his SRM data and to find a place where he has been travelling upshill for a while and is now holind speed or accelerating with no - or very little - cadence. Allowing for sticky bottles etc, you'd need to look for a section of about 200m+ with unusually low cadence.

 

[stephens]

I guess there is cheating, and then there is cheating.

Is Cavendish (allegedly) hanging on to a car worse than Kolobnev doping?
Is Maradona's hand of god goal worse than footballers using epo?
Is Marquerito's plaster boxing gloves worse than Mosley's (balco) steroids?

The former are direct violations of the intrinsic "rules" of the game itself, while the latter are more abstract violations declared by various organizations.

So in that sense, the former violations just feel worse. But in cycling's case, the odd thing is that it sure seems that getting a tow, as long as it isn't "too long", is as much of a tradition in cycling as cheating with "preparations" is and is something more people might be willing to give a pass to.

 

[Midnightfright]

I find it hard to imagine Cav hasn't done it too some extent. Although its not out the question that he consereved energy going up the early climbs on Saturday. He could well of used the descent to regain time or got ushered back to the grupetto by his team. There was a large flattish section before the final climb. I'm fairly certain he's not the only guy doing it , actually the pics from the Giro suggest this. Although in ny eyes still pics prove nothing though unlikey they could of been taken as each rider is visiting the team car. What I will see is Cav has looked exhausted the last couple of days and don't expect him to finish with the time limit up alp d huez car grabbing or not.

 

[spalco]

It's obviously a ridiculous comparison and I'm not even going to comment on that since many others have done already, but I'll just say this: Cavendish isn't even a horrible climber for a sprinter. He certainly isn't good, but he's not horrible. And he's pretty small too, Greipel for example probably weighs 10kg more than him. It absolutely is plausible for him to get over any climbs in the TdF in the autobus if he's in good shape.

And even if I did accept the doping analogy - even dopers don't get banned without a positive test, and no reasonable person, even the most hardcore anti-doping fanatics here in the Clinic would suggest it should be otherwise!

 

[Midnightfright]

It's obviously a ridiculous comparison and I'm not even going to comment on that since many others have done already, but I'll just say this: Cavendish isn't even a horrible climber for a sprinter. He certainly isn't good, but he's not horrible. And he's pretty small too, Greipel for example probably weighs 10kg more than him. It absolutely is plausible for him to get over any climbs in the TdF in the autobus if he's in good shape.

And even if I did accept the doping analogy - even dopers don't get banned without a positive test, and no reasonable person, even the most hardcore anti-doping fanatics here in the Clinic would suggest it should be otherwise!

That's actually a fair point. He seems to get over them ok when he's motivated. Like I said I'm sure he's done a bit if grabbing which isn't abnormal in the grupetto but I doubt he's using it more than the others.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I also think its a little pointless trying to catch Cavendish hanging onto a car in the Alpes.

Is he really likely to do it again with that much attention on him? He'd have to be utterly desperate to risk it now wouldn't he?

That's a bit like asking 'would Ricco really be so stupid as to store some blood in his fridge and try to inject it into himself before the Tour of the Med'.

The answer is 'Yes' and the reason is because he doesn't know any better.

Looking at the way that the ASO has fixed the points competition for Frodo to win it, it is no shock that they are turning a blind eye to Frodo cheating by hanging on.

 

[goggalor]

So in that sense, the former violations just feel worse. But in cycling's case, the odd thing is that it sure seems that getting a tow, as long as it isn't "too long", is as much of a tradition in cycling as cheating with "preparations" is and is something more people might be willing to give a pass to.

It's definitely tradition in cycling to sympathise with the stragglers and give them a pass for bending the rules. But that changes for me when the straggler wins the next stage (at least when done in the formulaic manner of a Cavendish win), and also if the towing is organised, not just opportunism.