Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

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Dec 30, 2010
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There is a lot of "lobbying through the media" going on in this thread.

It may, or may not indicate that a result has already been decided on, and they are just trying to make it palatable to the public, or people with an agenda are trying to affect the outcome.
 
Sep 30, 2010
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lean said:
it seems far fetched that WADA would explain or even leak info about their strategy.

i don't speak spanish and i haven't had time to run it thru google translation so i'll pose the question to all somewhat rhetorically, how credible is this source?

That is true of just about every snippet of information discussed in the various AC-threads. It didn't stop people from running with the DEHP-story or the Humo-story with nothing more than some leaked (unconfirmed) information. If we are not allowed to discuss that kind of information we might as well close the Clinic. Besides I didn't hear you complain when it wasn't a bout a supposedly faulty WADA-tactic. ;) I find your comments somewhat selective at the least.

Regards
GJ
 
Jun 7, 2010
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lean said:
it seems far fetched that WADA would explain or even leak info about their strategy.

i don't speak spanish and i haven't had time to run it thru google translation so i'll pose the question to all somewhat rhetorically, how credible is this source?

El Pais is quite credible to me. I wonder if that was a leak from the defense camp though.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Polygraphs, at best, will tell which doper is better at lieing about it than the others. It cannot make a doper credible.
So, the guy is good at lieing. He's got more balls than I gave him credit for. His riding under pressure the past years has been pretty good also.
 
May 5, 2011
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Cloxxki said:
Polygraphs, at best, will tell which doper is better at lieing about it than the others. It cannot make a doper credible.
So, the guy is good at lieing. He's got more balls than I gave him credit for. His riding under pressure the past years has been pretty good also.

pretty good? what the hell do you want from a guy! :p
 
May 15, 2011
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Cloxxki said:
Polygraphs, at best, will tell which doper is better at lieing about it than the others. It cannot make a doper credible.
So, the guy is good at lieing. He's got more balls than I gave him credit for. His riding under pressure the past years has been pretty good also.

*ahem* So who exactly isn't a doper in your opinion? Are you one of those "all cyclists dope" guys?
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Any updates on what the Magic 8 ball said?
No but there are rumours that Contador's lawyers are going to use the latest Loves Me, Loves Me Not technology tomorrow.
 

airstream

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The guy declared himself to be an apologist of new clean cycling after the TdF'07. According to his words he was happy to be a new type champion, who really never had anything to do with doping. Can we believe him? To be sure! Because doping is such invisible rules of the game that no one feels guilty. Though for me personally those his words were shocking. There were many possibilities to avoid a rant like that, but... Well, polygraph is good, definetely better than nothing.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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LaFlorecita said:
:rolleyes: Go on, go on, I enjoy being made fun of...

Don't get all excited, it's AC we're making fun of, not you.
I understand you identify with him, but that's a different matter.
 
May 15, 2011
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sniper said:
Don't get all excited, it's AC we're making fun of, not you.
I understand you identify with him, but that's a different matter.

Whatever... As if I was excited... And no, I don't identify with him.
 
May 15, 2011
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Part of the defense:Link

This particular line I find interesting: ". The study also questions WADA's calculation of the amount Contador urinates during competition, based on mid-Tour controls; WADA says 1.172 liters but Contador's team says he urinates as much as two liters."

How come there is such a difference between their calculations?

And this: "In the report, Contador himself states that if he only fills three-quarters of a sample container, it is for hygienic reasons" What has this to do with the case?

And also this:" In 112 experiments using the WADA data, Tomás Martín Jiménez of the University of Tennessee found no scenario in which 50 picograms of clenbuterol could have been detected." That's quite a lot of experiments on one thing... :p

And I thought WADAs theory was he withdrew blood somewhere in May or June. If that's the case it is beyond me why they use a weight of 66 kilos for their calculations, he only weighs that much in the off-season. (and don't come up with "that's why he used clen.":p)
Is that number based on the assumption he used the clen to lose weight and thus should have weighed about that much, or do they actually weigh the riders throughout the season, or is it just a random number?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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LaFlorecita said:
Part of the defense:Link

This particular line I find interesting: ". The study also questions WADA's calculation of the amount Contador urinates during competition, based on mid-Tour controls; WADA says 1.172 liters but Contador's team says he urinates as much as two liters."

How come there is such a difference between their calculations?

And this: "In the report, Contador himself states that if he only fills three-quarters of a sample container, it is for hygienic reasons" What has this to do with the case?

And also this:" In 112 experiments using the WADA data, Tomás Martín Jiménez of the University of Tennessee found no scenario in which 50 picograms of clenbuterol could have been detected." That's quite a lot of experiments on one thing... :p

And I thought WADAs theory was he withdrew blood somewhere in May or June. If that's the case it is beyond me why they use a weight of 66 kilos for their calculations, he only weighs that much in the off-season. (and don't come up with "that's why he used clen.":p)
Is that number based on the assumption he used the clen to lose weight and thus should have weighed about that much, or do they actually weigh the riders throughout the season, or is it just a random number?

It sounds like Conatdors defense team have been taking the p*ss. :p
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Thanks so much for this link:

The prosecution's theory is that Contador followed a course of injections of 200 micrograms of clenbuterol for three weeks and then his blood was extracted and through apheresis, the plasma was divided from the red blood cells. Several weeks later 200 milliliters of plasma was reinjected. If a person weighing 66 kilos urinates every three hours and a little over a liter a day, 12 to 24 hours after the reinfusion, around 50 picograms of clenbuterol would be present, the quantity found in Contador.

This does not say anything about separate red cell and plasma transfusions, though i guess it is implied.

The calculations IMO are fine, except more detailed than they need to be or in fact can be. There is a broad range of body weights, possible CB doses and plasma volumes that could account for the 50 pg/ml. I tend to agree with GJB that the prosecution is overdoing the detail (to the extent that reports like this accurately portray what the prosecution is saying). In the RFEC report, the prosecution worked with broad ranges, much more effective.

Contador's own pharmacokinetic study refutes the prosecution theory completely, pointing especially to the elevated level of toxicity that would be present in a person who had injected clenbuterol for three weeks. The cyclist's defense also emphasizes that for an athlete who undergoes as many tests as Contador - 32 in the seven months before the 2010 Tour - taking a banned substance for three consecutive weeks would be sheer folly. The study also questions WADA's calculation of the amount Contador urinates during competition, based on mid-Tour controls; WADA says 1.172 liters but Contador's team says he urinates as much as two liters. In the report, Contador himself states that if he only fills three-quarters of a sample container, it is for hygienic reasons. In 112 experiments using the WADA data, Tomás Martín Jiménez of the University of Tennessee found no scenario in which 50 picograms of clenbuterol could have been detected.

Point by point: There might be some adverse effects of CB at 200 ug per day for 3 weeks, but as I noted before, one does not need a dose nearly that high nor a regimen nearly that long to account for 50 pg/ml. 50-75 ug a day for a few days will do it. I don’t understand what WADA is up to here. I guess they want to use a dose that makes it impossible to refute the 50 pg/ml conclusion under any circumstances, but they should at least emphasize that 50 pg/ml is very reasonable with much lower doses (maybe they are, and this wasn't reported).

I agree that taking CB for three weeks would be very dangerous. I always thought if he took it, it was only for a few days. Of course, psychological factors like these don’t carry much weight in a tribunal like this. The assumption is the doper might do anything that worked. But personally, I've always doubted that Bert took large doses of CB for any extended period

Wrt volume passed, the presumption is that the more Bert passes, the lower the concentration in urine will be after a particular length of time. True enough, but with the broad ranges of estimates in play, increasing the urine volume will not be enough to make 50 pg/ml unlikely. Not even close, this seems to me grasping at straws.

Moreover, what increasing the urine volume estimate will do is increase the estimate of amount of CB he originally took. This doesn’t help the argument that it is contaminated meat, though I assume at this point Bert’s team has already accepted that you can’t get the 50 pg/ml from Euro-passed meat. IOW, their assumption is that if you are playing the outlaw meat card, it doesn’t matter how much CB was in your system. But this could backfire, because there might be estimates of how much meat contaminated at particular levels exist, based on the few positive tests of Spanish cattle, as well as on tests of imported meat. The higher the estimate of CB originally ingested, the lower the probability of contaminated meat at any level.

OTOH, the higher urine estimate also means a higher estimate of CB ingested intentionally, which helps support the arguments about side effects and dangers of taking a lot of CB. But overall, I don't think the higher estimate helps either side significantly.

I continue to think that the prosecution has a very strong case based the probability of contaminated meat. The case for transfusion I think is also fine, except for the DEHP test discrepancy, which is glaring. But setting that aside, the pharmacokinetics support transfusion far more than they do contamination.

The other main component of Contador's defense is Sheila Bird, a biostatistician and a world authority on mad cow disease who painted a bleak panorama of health controls in the European meat industry. According to Bird, and based on EU and Spanish regional data, only 900 of every one million cattle are tested before sale in Europe. Therefore, it can be affirmed that 99 percent of beef consumed in Spain has not been through any checks.

Discussed here before. In statistics, it doesn’t matter what the % of total is. All that matters is the absolute number of animals tested. If you test just 1000 cattle, the standard of error is, forgot now, but around 1-2%, I believe. Electoral polls work on the same principle. The key point is were the tests random. If they were, this argument holds no weight at all.

Pistolero: Yes, they must be representative or random, as I said. I'm still waiting to hear Bert's team claim they weren't.

Some more:


This is from an article that was previously linked here:

When [clenbuterol] was orally administered repeatedly to men twice a day, the plasma level reached the plateau within 4 d after the initial administration. At that time, the plasma levels of the unchanged form were 0.2 to 0.3 ng/ml and 0.5 to 0.6 ng/ml at doses of 20 and 40 μg/man, respectively.

Take the dose of 40 ug. A plasma level of 0.5-0.6 ng/ml. corresponds to 100-120 ng of CB in 200 ml of blood. Estimates of the amount Bert ingested are around 500 ng. (this was discussed on an earlier thread), that is, about 4-5 higher. If you multiply the 40 ug dose by 4-5 you get about 200 ug. This is reasonable, because the study cited showed a linear effect of dose vs. plasma concentration. I think this is how WADA came up with this figure.

But the 500 ng figure for what Bert ingested is an estimate only, it could easily be in a range of say 300-700 ng. This is quite reasonable, because there is considerable uncertainty in some of the very low CB values in Bert’s later samples, and because pharmacokinetics can vary somewhat from individual to individual (body weight differences as well as differences in physiology). If you take the lower 300 ng figure, you are down to 120 ug as an estimate of what he had to take per day. If you assume he infused 500 ml, not 200 ml., you can lower that all the way to about 50 ug. So rather than claiming Bert took 200 ug, it would seem much more sensible to argue he took a minimum daily dose of about 50 ug, which could have been more. Nobody can refute the possibility of 50 ug. It might not be correct, but it is far more likely than contaminated meat.

Also note from the above quote that the plateau value of CB in the blood was reached in four days. Three weeks are unnecessary, and I don’t understand why WADA is using that time frame.

The above study is quite old, and there may be newer data available, but I doubt they differ much.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Thanks so much for this link:



This does not say anything about separate red cell and plasma transfusions.

The calculations IMO are fine, except more detailed than they need to be or in fact can be. There is a broad range of possible CB doses and plasma volumes that could account for the 50 pg/ml. I tend to agree with GJB that the prosecution is overdoing the detail (to the extent that reports like this accurately portray what the prosecution is saying). In the RFEC report, the prosecution worked with broad ranges, much more effective.



Point by point: There might be some adverse effects of CB at 200 ug per day for 3 weeks, but as I noted before, one does not need a dose nearly that high nor a regimen nearly that long to account for 50 pg/ml. 50-75 ug a day for a few days will do it. I don’t understand what WADA is up to here.

I agree that taking CB for three weeks would be very dangerous. I always thought if he took it, it was only for a few days. Of course, psychological factors like these don’t carry much weight in a tribunal like this.

Wrt volume passed, the presumption is that the more Bert passes, the lower the concentration in urine will be after a particular length of time. True enough, but with the broad ranges of estimates in play, increasing the urine volume will not be enough to make 50 pg/ml unlikely. Not even close. But what it will do is increase the estimate of amount of CB he originally took. This doesn’t help the argument that it is contaminated meat, though I assume at this point Bert’s team has already accepted that you can’t get the 50 pg/ml from Euro-passed meat. IOW, if you are playing the outlaw meat card, it doesn’t matter how much CB was in your system.



Discussed here before. In statistics, it doesn’t matter what the % of total is. All that matters is the absolute number of animals tested. If you test just 1000 cattle, the standard of error is, forgot now, but around 1-2%, I believe. Electoral polls work on the same principle. The key point is were the tests random. If they were, this argument holds no weight at all.

Statistics isn't that simple. You have no idea of knowing if the samples they take are representative.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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El Pistolero said:
Statistics isn't that simple. You have no idea of knowing if the samples they take are representative.

%age of the total still isn't particularly important, though
 
Sep 30, 2010
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The more I read, the less I understand of the strategy WADA is using. By providing some much detail and basically suggesting they do more or less exactly how things went down, they are setting themselves up for a major disaster imho. If AC's team proof that theory is faulty, it will be a mighty struggle to convince anybody that transfusion did occur. I am truly puzzled and I think ASC's team cannot believe their luck.

Regards
GJ
 
Mar 18, 2009
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GJB123 said:
The more I read, the less I understand of the strategy WADA is using. By providing some much detail and basically suggesting they do more or less exactly how things went down, they are setting themselves up for a major disaster imho. If AC's team proof that theory is faulty, it will be a mighty struggle to convince anybody that transfusion did occur. I am truly puzzled and I think ASC's team cannot believe their luck.

There has to be a reason like anomalies in Contador's data has forced them to use a more complicated scenario. It is probably a sign that there are problems with arguing for simple transfusion.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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GJB123 said:
That is true of just about every snippet of information discussed in the various AC-threads. It didn't stop people from running with the DEHP-story or the Humo-story with nothing more than some leaked (unconfirmed) information. If we are not allowed to discuss that kind of information we might as well close the Clinic. Besides I didn't hear you complain when it wasn't a bout a supposedly faulty WADA-tactic. ;) I find your comments somewhat selective at the least.

Regards
GJ

you've cracked the case Matlock, you've exposed my super secret hidden agenda for wanting cleaner competition.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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This might sound pretty daft, but would there be any Contador samples left from earlier in the year to retest in Cologne?

To me it would be a simpler way to answer some questions instead of all the assumptions, statistic lectures, discussion of farmer's etc.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Merckx index said:
This does not say anything about separate red cell and plasma transfusions, though i guess it is implied.

i hate to embarrass the forum hematologists but WADA's modeling might be quite smart. introducing the concept of plasmapharesis extends the window in which contador could have been banking blood by a mile.

he may have donated during or just after an intense "crash" cycle of clenbuterol following the DL as we previously thought OR... he may have reinfused plasma separately that had been stored anytime in the previous year.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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BroDeal said:
There has to be a reason like anomalies in Contador's data has forced them to use a more complicated scenario. It is probably a sign that there are problems with arguing for simple transfusion.
i noted in a (short, sorry it was less than a 1000 words) post earlier that if the l'equipe reports regarding contador's 'usual' blood values are anything close to reality, he is almost certainly owning the uci's official permit (dispensation) for exceeding 50% haematocrit or 17 g/l haemoglobin.

this would complicate not only his blood passport assessment but would bring forward the number of new and uncomfortable (for the uci) questions like how and why he was targeted for blood passport testing and why was he granted the permit in the first place.

all in all, i don't feel like reading too much in the sporadic out of context reports even though i do consider el pais a credible source.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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i hate to embarrass the forum hematologists but WADA's modeling might be quite smart. introducing the concept of plasmapharesis extends the window in which contador could have been banking blood by a mile.

he may have donated during or just after an intense "crash" cycle of clenbuterol following the DL as we previously thought OR... he may have reinfused plasma separately that had been stored anytime in the previous year.

If I understand where you’re going with this, Bert doped with CB during the offseason, withdrew blood, separated red cells from plasma, and stored them separately. By freezing them, they could have been stored for months, avoiding the necessity of repeated withdrawal-transfusion cycles during the season. Then he transfused the cells and plasma during the TDF.

So far, so good. I always thought if Bert transfused, he would be more likely to withdraw and freeze, since he would have the economic means for this relatively expensive procedure, rather than go on the cycles, which can be difficult to fit into with your racing schedule.

But it would be easier to reconstitute with sterile saline, which can be stored at room temperature and which I assume can be taken to races without raising undue suspicion. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have taken the frozen plasma along with the red cells, only that the reasonable possibility that a racer might not do this makes the transfusion scenario a little less likely. Since the plasma has no major PE effects, why bother to bring it along if you don’t really need it?

Moreover, even if we accept that he did bring the plasma along, this still doesn’t explain the one day discrepancy between the DEHP positive and the first CB positive that I discussed earlier. WADA might know all kinds of things about how riders blood dope that I don’t know, but the bottom line is that they have to explain why a transfusion occurred before the rest day, why it resulted in a positive for one substance but not another, and why a second transfusion not only was made at all, but why it resulted in a positive for the second substance but not the first.

i noted in a (short, sorry it was less than a 1000 words) post earlier that if the l'equipe reports regarding contador's 'usual' blood values are anything close to reality, he is almost certainly owning the uci's official permit (dispensation) for exceeding 50% haematocrit or 17 g/l haemoglobin.

this would complicate not only his blood passport assessment but would bring forward the number of new and uncomfortable (for the uci) questions like how and why he was targeted for blood passport testing and why was he granted the permit in the first place.

Interesting that this seems to be the first insight into Bert’s blood values we’ve ever had. There was a thread here a while back that seemed to conclude that he had never published even so much as a HT. Based on a normal value of 16+, he could have a HT of 48-49, or one over 50. I’m betting on the latter, because 48-49 would mean he couldn’t blood dope at all without running afoul of the 50%/17 rule. Whereas if he was over 50%, he could presumably raise his HT a little as long as he stayed within a fairly narrow range.

all in all, i don't feel like reading too much in the sporadic out of context reports even though i do consider el pais a credible source.

Understood. But this new link to what happened in the courtroom seems to provide some confirmation of the El Pais theory. I think we can definitely conclude that WADA’s approach involves separation of cells and plasma, rather than storage and transfusion of whole blood. The part about two separate transfusions is not directly confirmed, but implied by the statement that plasma was transfused, when they could have said cells reconstituted with plasma.
 
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