Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

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Mar 19, 2009
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So this was part of WADA's angle.

Isn't the UCI also in on this? What's their angle? I've not heard much of that, or managed to miss it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I think Riis is just bribing them to delay things so that he can benefit from Contador's publicity in San Luis.
 
May 18, 2009
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AC will get off, and WADA will have a minimum threshold in place within the year. Bet on it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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If he gets off then he was innocent to me. If all those experts and judges come to that decision then who am I to argue with that.

If he gets banned then I believe he did do something illegal.

In a case of this length they surely have to be right in their final decision right?
 
Dec 23, 2011
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
If he gets off then he was innocent to me. If all those experts and judges come to that decision then who am I to argue with that.

Might it just mean he has clever lawyers? The courts are full of crooks who get off through a technicality or a clever legal team.

Everyone knows the only way the clem could get into his system was through doping. No matter what the official outcome, everyone knows he doped. If he gets off, then it just shows the inadequacies of the system.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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Cimber said:
It wont matter. If he gets banned they will just strip him of any results he got in that race.

Top level cycling hurts. If they strip him of any results then he's being put through physical pain for nothing.
 
Dec 23, 2011
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The Hitch said:
Top level cycling hurts. If they strip him of any results then he's being put through physical pain for nothing.

It'll also affect his money-making capabilities in future. Who wants to sponsor a cyclist who might get publicity no one wants?
 
Aug 30, 2010
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
If he gets off then he was innocent to me. If all those experts and judges come to that decision then who am I to argue with that.

If he gets banned then I believe he did do something illegal.

In a case of this length they surely have to be right in their final decision right?

That's funny.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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masking_agent said:
its simply "litigation" and I'm not surprised by it.

more and more it looks like he's gonna skate free

I agree with your first line - but I don't know how you can read anything in to a delay.

In fact one would expect CAS to be crossing every t and dotting every i if they sanction Contador, because if he is sanctioned he will appeal to any and every court. (and watch how his legal team suddenly will act with speed).

ChrisE said:
AC will get off, and WADA will have a minimum threshold in place within the year. Bet on it.
What odds are you offering?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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doolols said:
It'll also affect his money-making capabilities in future. Who wants to sponsor a cyclist who might get publicity no one wants?

Who was it that said "I don't care what they say about me as long as they spell my name right" ? Sometimes bad publicity isn't really bad publicity.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
What odds are you offering?

If he walks and there is a threshold within the year, you give up your account and quit posting.

If not, I get myself banned. Deal?
 

Dr. Maserati

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ChrisE said:
If he walks and there is a threshold within the year, you give up your account and quit posting.

If not, I get myself banned. Deal?

You will do that anyway.
I prefer money. Offer some odds.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
You will do that anyway.
I prefer money. Offer some odds.

Maybe, maybe not. It is called free will, but in the end it is not up to me. I control myself many hours on a daily basis while I deal with idiots. I can extend my working hours if I choose to.

And, how will I give you money if you win, or vice versa? This anonymous internet thing is fun.

You don't want to take my bet because it is something that can be quantified and is real, and can be called out later. I get it....just say you were being rhetorical earlier.
 

Dr. Maserati

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ChrisE said:
Maybe, maybe not. It is called free will, but in the end it is not up to me. I control myself many hours on a daily basis while I deal with idiots. I can extend my working hours if I choose to.

And, how will I give you money if you win, or vice versa? This anonymous internet thing is fun.
Paypal through one of the mods is fine by me.

ChrisE said:
You don't want to take my bet because it is something that can be quantified and is real, and can be called out later. I get it....just say you were being rhetorical earlier.
I want to know what odds you are offering as there are 2 conditions- if your "bet" was just rhetorical then just admit it was and move on.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Paypal through one of the mods is fine by me.


I want to know what odds you are offering as there are 2 conditions- if your "bet" was just rhetorical then just admit it was and move on.

The mods will never know my name.

Even money if it was the case, but since it all involves giving up our identity instead of giving up something that can be measured, like our accounts, then no deal.

Now, get back on topic before you get reported by me. I am sure I have already been reported many times for this diversion.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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ChrisE said:
The mods will never know my name.

Even money if it was the case, but since it all involves giving up our identity instead of giving up something that can be measured, like our accounts, then no deal.

Now, get back on topic before you get reported by me. I am sure I have already been reported many times for this diversion.
A paypal to a mod would not mean giving up identity. I ain't a friendship request, its a transaction.
As for anything else regarding the forum - when you don't adhere to the current rules why would you expect anyone to believe you would stay away?

PS If you are attempting to suggest that I have ever reported you, I have not.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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so, to further develop my earlier deduction in this post that the delay was likely a procedural interruption caused by cas' review of barring ashenden’s testimony…how likely was it to influence the outcome ?

It can be looked at from on a number of different angles each of which may or may not apply…

Evidentiary angle.
since the hearing ended and assuming ashenden was indeed excluded, there shouldn’t have been anything new (in terms of admissible evidence) added to the ‘pile’ for the 3 arbiters to base their decision on between the end of november and yesterday. as i speculated earlier, if the result of wada complaint was allowing wada to submit additional written arguments, the nature of the supplemented arguments may only be an expansion on those ashen den was denied in the first place. that is - wada may have received an opportunity to boost the likelihood of a 2-step transfusion theory. Frankly, I can’t see anything of sort… like the additional tests (they can’t be turned around in 2 weeks) or some new technical interpretations (they would require the other side be given the right to respond) and would take longer that 2 weeks. having in mind this type of considerations, i lean to the opinion there was NO new evidence added as a result of the latest delay. it was all likely about legal procedural motions and responses. you want odds dr mass ? ;) let’s put it at 60/40. so this round favours bert

Psychological angle.
Not being an expert in the field, I can’t give it a due review. But if I was a member of the panel - much less it’s chairman - I’d very much be paying attention to the complaint. I would look thrice and weigh each of my past and future decisions. Can it result in altering some previous interpretations (before the complaint) ? I think so. Particularly now, when the arbiters have to commit their verbal consultations to writing and thus enter legal history. which leads me to the last angle…

Legal significance of a precedent.
again not being an expert, i can only use my knowledge and experience gained from similar cases. there is one big legal issues on the table - strict liability. clen threshold was mentioned earlier too, and the panel’s verdict may indeed affect it’s regulation down the road, but its significance imo isn’t comparable to contador’s verdict impact on strict liability. where will this chip fall ? hard to say but it’s clear that the panelists well realise they will create a significant legal precedent if they completely exonerate contador.

i’m going to take a risk here and say something i haven’t said before - if the panel rejected wada theory of a blood transfusion - which increasingly looks like they did - contador’s case (in terms of legal logic) becomes equivalent to rfec's hearing or the german ponger’s case. we all remember that was another precedent (1st full clen exoneration) except in that case the evidence of contamination was almost obvious and much stronger than in bert’s case. still wada refused to budge and dragged that poor german into cas to only yield in the last minute. (I described those circumstances in other threads).

such is the strength of wada commitment to the principle of strict liability !
cas knows it and cares about it but if contador’s exonerated it may force wada into reshaping the principle - as wada should.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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python said:
i lean to the opinion there was NO new evidence added as a result of the latest delay. it was all likely about legal procedural motions and responses.

I agree.

Can it result in altering some previous interpretations (before the complaint) ? I think so

I did a double take the first couple of times I read this statement. I thought you meant by “previous interpretations” decisions on other cases in the past. I now assume you mean just the conclusions the arbs came to about Contador. Still, I’m surprised you think the complaint would have that much effect, given that you previously concluded that it was all about procedure. But maybe you have a finer distinction in mind, not that it would sway their decision about whether to sanction Bert or not, but simply that it would change how they describe the process that led to their decision (without changing that decision). If that's what you meant, no argument there.

such is the strength of wada commitment to the principle of strict liability ! cas knows it and cares about it but if contador’s exonerated it may force wada into reshaping the principle - as wada should.

WADA de facto already has. They haven’t challenged the Anderson decision, AFAIK. And the Mexican decision was huge. The CB levels in these soccer players were far larger than in the ping-pong players, and to let them off meant announcing to the world that Mexican beef is unsafe to eat. Maybe everyone already knows that, but it’s one of those truisms that politicians ordinarily wouldn’t be caught dead admitting.

At this point, I think if Bert walks, it will be rationalized by many as the logical next step in a progression. The ponger got off because he 1) ate meat in a country known to have a contamination problem, 2) had very low levels, 3) was able to show that others who ate the meat had similar levels, and 4) took a hairtest. For a defendant, that is about as good as it gets. Anderson, and also the soccer players, got off because of 1) and 3). IOW, their case was not as good, but they were helped by the precedent that CB doesn't have to mean an automatic sanction.

Bert only fulfills criterion 2), a very tenuous connection, but the previous cases, regardless of whether they influence the arbs, will definitely help much of the public swallow a decision of not guilty, if it comes to that. So I think strict liability is already dead. The threshold is a different matter. A verdict of not guilty I think would help those who want a threshold, because it implies that the main reason Bert got off is because he had a level that could easily have resulted from contamination. If Bert had a much higher CB level, I think the case against him would have been stronger. This is ironic, because a high level of CB is much harder to explain by transfusion. But this shows the bias towards believing that a low level is less likely to result from doping. This bias is a main force underlying the push for a threshold.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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I now assume you mean just the conclusions the arbs came to about Contador. Still, I’m surprised you think the complaint would have that much effect, given that you previously concluded that it was all about procedure. But maybe you have a finer distinction in mind, not that it would sway their decision about whether to sanction Bert or not, but simply that it would change how they describe the process that led to their decision (without changing that decision). If that's what you meant, no argument there.
i meant the hilited primarily. however, considering that we are attempting to interpret human beings rather than machines, i intentionally brought up the 'psychological angle'... people change their minds, people genuinely are undecided on some issues, people are subject to peer, political and professional pressure etc. i had in mind ALSO a situation when if say a previous verbal agreement btwn the arbiters was 1/2 it MAY take only one tiny mind change switch it to 2/1....and cause further delays. yes, i don't exclude those because the history of this process is nothing but a chain of delays.

WADA de facto already has.
i meant wada's need to codify the changes which can't be done i understand till their congress in s. africa.

to wada's credit, the principle of strict liability was indeed updated to reflect new realities, however, imo as was discussed a lot previously, is still in need of further revisions particularly taking the view of low-income or less lucky athletes. as to clen threshold, at this point, i have nothing to add to what i said before.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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doolols said:
Might it just mean he has clever lawyers? The courts are full of crooks who get off through a technicality or a clever legal team.

Everyone knows the only way the clem could get into his system was through doping. No matter what the official outcome, everyone knows he doped. If he gets off, then it just shows the inadequacies of the system.
If you know, what takes you so long to step up and provide the necessary evidence?
 
May 26, 2010
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Nilsson said:
If you know, what takes you so long to step up and provide the necessary evidence?

The evidence was it was detected. Contador has to prove that it got there by means other than doping.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
The evidence was it was detected. Contador has to prove that it got there by means other than doping.
Detection isn't evidence of doping. It's evidence that a certain substance is found.

If it was all that simple we wouldn't have had all the discussions over here, and the Contador case would already have been concluded a long time ago...

We don't know anything for sure, we can only think we do (because we have our thoughts and arguments, or gut feeling)...
 
Dec 23, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
The evidence was it was detected. Contador has to prove that it got there by means other than doping.

Indeed.

Nilsson said:
Detection isn't evidence of doping. It's evidence that a certain substance is found.

We shouldn't even be talking about "how". The rules state that evidence of the substance is against the rules. Therefore he's guilty.

You're right. However, the only other explanation (which AC is using) is the consumption of contaminated meat, but the probability of that is so tiny to be insignificant. The case should hinge on whether AC can prove that contamination was the reason. He can't. He's guilty.
 
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