Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Landis" Thread

[Granville57]

The article says

Lim got an offer from Saris Cycling Group, the company behind PowerTap, to help coach a sponsored rider: Floyd Landis.

It appears Lim was hired by Saris.....then why does Floyd have canceled checks to Lim for $80,000? Was this for services over and above what Saris payed him for?

It gets even more confusing with interviews like this
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...m-garmins-guru

I didn't see Floyd do anything unethical or wrong when I worked with him.

that first year, he only paid me, like, 7000 dollars to do all that work with him. And I basically just went and hung out in Europe and had this great experience.

The same was true in 2006, I think I was paid a total of 5 grand or something, working for Floyd.

It appears Lim was hired by Saris.....then why does Floyd have canceled checks to Lim for $80,000? Was this for services over and above what Saris payed him for?

In 2012, Lim had this to say to Velonews:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/lim-says-hes-clean-in-wake-of-usada-findings-tried-to-thwart-landis-doping_261680

In an e-mail, Lim told VeloNews that Landis named him because the former U.S. Postal rider had an axe to grind and knew that Lim was aware of his doping in 2005.

“I believe that Floyd made the accusations he did about me in 2010 because he knew that I knew what he had done in ’05. I also figured, but don’t know, that he was mad at me for working for Lance and that he resented my attempts to thwart his doping,” Lim wrote.

“While I became aware of Floyd’s attempt to dope himself and Levi [Leipheimer] in 2005, my actions were neither complicit nor complacent and I made it clear that this wasn’t right, encouraging them as much as I could at the time to ride clean,” Lim wrote.

Lim, who works with elite-level riders out of his Boulder headquarters, worked with Landis in 2005 and 2006, but said that he was never employed by Landis. In 2005, Lim analyzed Landis’ power files and says he was paid by the Saris Cycling Group. Lim maintained a diary that was used by PowerTap to promote its sponsorship and relations with Landis, Lim wrote.

“The PowerTap was a major part of my doctoral work and Floyd wanted an expert in this realm to help him with his training analysis and feedback. I worked with Floyd as part of my contract with PowerTap in 2005 at the Tour of Georgia, Catalunya, and then after the Dauphiné in his lead up to the 2005 Tour de France as well as at the ‘05 Tour de France itself,” Lim wrote.

In 2006, the year that Landis won the Tour and tested positive for testosterone, Saris paid Lim to analyze Landis’ power files at the Tour only. Lim claims he maintained spreadsheets of Landis’ training data.

“Floyd did not pay me a salary in 2005 or in 2006, though he did take care of miscellaneous expenses when we were together (hotel, some meals, travel expenses, no more than 3k for those two years). Floyd did not employ me,” Lim wrote.

Lim provided information to the federal investigation into Lance Armstrong, he told VeloNews, but USADA did not approach him, though he said he would have given USADA information as well. In that testimony, which Lim provided late in 2010, he says he told federal investigators that “Floyd’s statements in his initial e-mail are false.”

 

[Granville57]

Motoman?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nor do I - but his affidavit starts with "...under penalty of perjury, declare and state" and where he signs says "I swear to affirm...".

Look at it this way, Lance's lawyers argued to a judge that he lied from start to finish of arbitration testimony and nobody in the judicial system is lifting a finger.

Nothing is going to happen when a few claims aren't exactly right in another arbitration.

 

[MarkvW]

s:

So wouldn't Exhibit B, and the information contained therein, be considered part of his "sworn testimony"?

I don't know the legal specifics of this.

Depends to the extent the exhibit is incorporated by reference into his deposition testimony.

For instance he could say in his depo: "My statements on 6/10/10 were a response to a big bunch of lies. Those lies are attached as Exhibit B of this deposition.

Or he could say, "I adopt the statements made in Exhibit B and incorporate them by reference into this declaration."

Or he could say anything in between...

You've got to read the declaration to know what to make of the Exhibits.

 

[RuCoin]

I know Landis confessed to doping generally, but has he ever said something specific about, or described in detail, how and how much synthetic testosterone he took before stage 17 in 06? And where he got it from? Like if he had it with him in case of need or if someone came by with it.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I know Landis confessed to doping generally, but has he ever said something specific about, or described in detail, how and how much synthetic testosterone he took before stage 17 in 06? And where he got it from? Like if he had it with him in case of need or if someone came by with it.

Are you adding synthetic Test to your program?

 

[Digger]

I know Landis confessed to doping generally, but has he ever said something specific about, or described in detail, how and how much synthetic testosterone he took before stage 17 in 06? And where he got it from? Like if he had it with him in case of need or if someone came by with it.

 

[RuCoin]

Are you adding synthetic Test to your program?

No, I was only curious if he ever said something more than only "Yeah, I doped". Like how he doped. I'm not a Landis case expert.

 

[DirtyWorks]

No, I was only curious if he ever said something more than only "Yeah, I doped". Like how he doped. I'm not a Landis case expert.

As much as Landis admitted doping and his claims corroborated very, very well, there were other, more powerful forces at work that used dope testing as a way to control bicycle racing outcomes.

We know that the supreme leader, Hein Verbruggen, was able to make riders positive in order to remain in control of the teams. We also know Armstrong somehow got riders that he felt threatened him sanctioned.

Specific to his case, my recollection is he claimed he wasn't taking the drug for which he was positive and therefore had no idea how he was positive for it. Verbruggen and Armstrong are sufficient explanations for me.

 

[D-Queued]

I know Landis confessed to doping generally, but has he ever said something specific about, or described in detail, how and how much synthetic testosterone he took before stage 17 in 06? And where he got it from? Like if he had it with him in case of need or if someone came by with it.

While he admitted to intimate relations with many PEDs at many times, he didn't have intimate relations with that PED. Maybe he did in the past, but at least not at that time.

Or, at least that he didn't know about it.

Or, maybe he couldn't remember it.

Could have been the JD that affected his memory. Maybe the beer.

Or, something like that.

Given that he appears to have been over 90% truthful, we can conclude that he was mostly truthful?

A Verbruggen/Armstrong conspiracy is tempting, but on balance it seems far more likely he actually took Testosterone. Everyone else did.

Dave.

 

[ralphbert]

A Verbruggen/Armstrong conspiracy is tempting, but on balance it seems far more likely he actually took Testosterone. Everyone else did.

I find your dismissal of an Armstrong conspiracy theory troubling and unclinic worthy. Go sit on the naughty chair

 

[sniper]

A Verbruggen/Armstrong conspiracy is tempting, but on balance it seems far more likely he actually took Testosterone. Everyone else did.

Dave.

The two options clearly arent mutually exclusive.
Same goes for the targeting of contador in 2010.

 

[DirtyWorks]

A Verbruggen/Armstrong conspiracy is tempting, but on balance it seems far more likely he actually took Testosterone. Everyone else did.

Dave.

I'm definitely not arguing Landis wasn't doing T. It is very useful over many days as a recovery therapy as long as the user keeps the T/E ratio below positive.

But it's just plain strange how the ratio spiked.

 

[DirtyWorks]

A Verbruggen/Armstrong conspiracy is tempting, but on balance it seems far more likely he actually took Testosterone. Everyone else did.

Dave.

I'm definitely not arguing Landis wasn't doing T. It is very useful over many days as a recovery therapy as long as the user keeps the T/E ratio below positive.

But it's just plain strange how the ratio spiked. And then Pat and Hein were doing nothing less than shuffling him off into anonymity after that.

 

[D-Queued]

I find your dismissal of an Armstrong conspiracy theory troubling and unclinic worthy. Go sit on the naughty chair

Isn't Armstrong in a place beyond conspiracy?

It's just how he is wired.

The two options clearly arent mutually exclusive.
Same goes for the targeting of contador in 2010.

Exactly.

While it may be easy to hide a positive, it is also easier to find a doping substance when it is actually there somewhere than to fabricate it from thin air.

I'm definitely not arguing Landis wasn't doing T. It is very useful over many days as a recovery therapy as long as the user keeps the T/E ratio below positive.

But it's just plain strange how the ratio spiked.

It would be interesting to find out what countermeasures were missed, and/or the timing of the T application, its method, etc., to help understand the 'spike'. Then again, it could just be the sensitivity of the instrument.

Given the previous day's bonk, it seems logical that Landis and his handlers removed all stops to facilitate his recovery.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

Given the previous day's bonk, it seems logical that Landis and his handlers removed all stops to facilitate his recovery.

It does cause one to wonder as to just what that "bonk" was the result of.

Whatever transpired between the evening July 19th and morning of July 20th, 2006...well, in the words of another guy who "didn't" win the TdF:

"Let's get to the real nature and the real detail of the story. We haven't heard it yet...is the truth."

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

In this interview, FLandis pretty much cops to using every PED under the stars, but not Test.

The lab reports are a mess. None of the tests initially were positive. But any result that did not rise to the threshold of a positive automatically became a "calibration run," and "calibrating" continued until the numbers finally got high enough to trip a positive.

And I am disinclined to believe a lab that has got so many thousands of negatives wrong necessarily managed to get this one positive right.

...It would be interesting to find out what countermeasures were missed, and/or the timing of the T application, its method, etc., to help understand the 'spike'....

There was no 'spike.' That is one of the myths that has damned him. His Test levels never tested abnormally high. But his T/E ratio was higher than allowable. Not at all the same thing.

I think it's pretty apparent from the lab data that the sample was contaminated. The only other reason lab results could fluctuate so wildly is an inept lab tech (also quite possible). The T/E ratio grew larger, every time she re-tested. By today, it probably would have been 100,000-to-1. I think the sample was contaminated and the epitestosterone was decaying faster than the testosterone, therefore the ratio kept widening.

Despite D1ck Pound's rather hyperbolic claim, "You'd think he'd be violating every virgin within 100 miles," FLandis's absolute testosterone level never exceeded "low normal."

If he was doping with Test, he wasn't doing it very well.

 

[RuCoin]

As much as Landis admitted doping and his claims corroborated very, very well, there were other, more powerful forces at work that used dope testing as a way to control bicycle racing outcomes.

We know that the supreme leader, Hein Verbruggen, was able to make riders positive in order to remain in control of the teams. We also know Armstrong somehow got riders that he felt threatened him sanctioned.

Specific to his case, my recollection is he claimed he wasn't taking the drug for which he was positive and therefore had no idea how he was positive for it. Verbruggen and Armstrong are sufficient explanations for me.

Yeah OK, I get it, but politics aside how does one explain the performance? It's something with the performance per se that implies he perhaps took something extra before the stage, no? Like with Vino in 07 or the Gewiss train in 94. But I don't know how fast "stuff" works on a stage to stage basis because I've never doped myself. Like I said, I'm not an expert. I'm no Conconi.

I've read Landis affidavit now but there he talks mostly about his time with the Postal and Armstrong & Bruyneel, he doesn't really say anything about 06 except that he tested positive for a skewed test-epitest ratio and lost his title.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yeah OK, I get it, but politics aside how does one explain the performance? It's something with the performance per se that implies he perhaps took something extra before the stage, no?

Well, so many were on "something extra" it would be hard to know who did what and why it worked so very well this time and not others.

StyrbjornSterki's excellent summary of the test is why I believe the source of the positive was not Floyd taking Testosterone. It was followed-up by Hein and Pat shoving Floyd out the door at amazing speed and keeping him banished.

 

[Granville57]

There was no 'spike.' That is one of the myths that has damned him. His Test levels never tested abnormally high. But his T/E ratio was higher than allowable. Not at all the same thing.

It was always Floyd's stance that the wide ratio of Testosterone to Epitestosterone was due to an excessively low reading of the Epi. Not—as you have correctly indicated—high levels of Test.

 

[Granville57]

Yeah OK, I get it, but politics aside how does one explain the performance?

There were a ton of factors in play that day. If you're genuinely curious about the topic, explore this thread about UCI corruption. You might want to read all of it, but here's a good starting point.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=428787#post428787

There were many things in Floyd's favor that day.
The extreme heat.
The fatigue of most of the peloton.
Widespread illness with many riders, combined with injured (or removed) team leaders meant that much of the tactics of that day were thrown into chaos.

Explore that thread for more detail.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Lan

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hell-always-have-paris-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/

Straight talking from Landis.

Amazing how the Sky PR machine has not kicked into gear to promote "their credibility over Landis's credibilty"...

But then again maybe the 'Syd storm' has made the Sky machine stand down to rethink its strategy.

 

[ColoradoDoping]

Re: Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Lan

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hell-always-have-paris-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/

Straight talking from Landis.

Amazing how the Sky PR machine has not kicked into gear to promote "their credibility over Landis's credibilty"...

But then again maybe the 'Syd storm' has made the Sky machine stand down to rethink its strategy.

Thanks for the link. Landis exposing some of the hypocrisy that still pervades the sport. Wish he would list the dispensaries on his website where one can find his products.

 

[Shame]

Landis still doesn't get it.
He doesn't belong. He isn't apologetic.
He seems to think if he had won that stage by a smaller margin, then everything would have been ok?
Him and Tyler Hamilton's miraculous solo wins were drug-fueled ego rides.
Maybe they caught it from Lance. Who knows?
Plus, Landis and Hamilton are both snitches.
I've got no interest in either of them.
Why didn't Landis start a testosterone patch business?
At least we know the product really works.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Lan

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hell-always-have-paris-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/

Straight talking from Landis.

Amazing how the Sky PR machine has not kicked into gear to promote "their credibility over Landis's credibilty"...

But then again maybe the 'Syd storm' has made the Sky machine stand down to rethink its strategy.

A journalist in France told Floyd how relieved he was to be talking straight talk with him after listening to Brailsford over the last three weeks.

The journalists know. Despite Walsh denials and depictions to the contrary, members of the media have the same feeling they did in 1999. They know it is no different this time around. They cannot deal honestly with the extent of doping ten to fifteen years ago, even though nearly all the riders have retired and everything could be written off as water under the bridge. It is no wonder they cannot deal with the obvious doping that going on today.