Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Landis" Thread

[BroDeal]

Landis returned an 11:1 t/e ratio which substantially exceeded the 4:1 limit that permitted the dope testers to test for synthetic testosterone.
.

Didn't the lab come up with a completely different ratio than 11:1 in the B test and the T:E test was subsequently thrown out because of testing errors in the final USADA judgement? Landis was still done in by the CIR test, but he would rightly be p!ssed if the only reason the CIR test was triggered was a lab error during the initial T:E screen, especially when he knows that everyone else would also fail a CIR test.

Funny enough, Joe Papp says that he was not using testosterone when he tested positive for it. It leads me to suspect that might be flaws with the test.

 

[thehog]

+1

An insightful perspective and one that would suggest that all of the peleton are "victims", whether they dope or not, and that the real villains are the ones that create and police the rules of the game - the UCI.

The allegation that sets LA apart from the rest of the peleton and perhaps helps to explain the level of hate is that he was in bed with the villains.

The rational is better understood if we apply the logic to ourselves. If we had to dope to keep our jobs for the following year would we do it? Of course we would. Has nothing to do with winning. Those who weren't comfortable with doping got out of the sport much earlier.

Armstrong's biggest failing wasn't doping but punishing those who didn't dope. He should have let them be...... they were never going to win. He had no business wasting time on them.

He's other failing was pretending to be "clean" - but I guess he didn't have a choice. The more ridiculous his performances became the louder the dirty calls were. He turned his defense into "hatred" from the French. Armstrong was afforded the best of both worlds.... he used at will but enjoyed the kudos of being clean.

 

[frenchfry]

Didn't the lab come up with a completely different ratio than 11:1 in the B test and the T:E test was subsequently thrown out because of testing errors in the final USADA judgement? Landis was still done in by the CIR test, but he would rightly be p!ssed if the only reason the CIR test was triggered was a lab error during the initial T:E screen, especially when he knows that everyone else would also fail a CIR test.

Funny enough, Joe Papp says that he was not using testosterone when he tested positive for it. It leads me to suspect that might be flaws with the test.

It shouldn't take us more than a few tens of thousands of posts to get to the bottom of this. Let's time warp back to 2006 and pretend this is a new topic to discuss.

Meanwhile, you should pull out Arnie Baker's powerpoint presentation for some really interesting talking points that will make you look like a technical genius.

 

[Velodude]

Lance is the biggest benefactor of doping in the US?
How do you figure that?

Not even in the top 100 more likely.

Benefited with $20m + in recurring annual endorsements.

Benefited by being able to contribute the largest historic single donation ($6m) to his charity, Livestrong, in its hour of need.

Benefited in being able to authorise and arrange Livestrong payments to medico persons who assisted him in litigation.

Benefited by being able to make unique "donations" to the UCI and allegedly UCI persons of interest.

Benefited by topping numerous media and public polls as a result of his allegedly dope fueled performances.

Benefited by being feted by US Presidents, State Governors, rock stars, entertainers, business leaders and blond bimbo starlets.

BTW, Polish, being in the Livestrong inner sanctum why did LA contribute $6m to Livestrong in 2010?

Was it an act of contrition relating to the profit he made on the Demand Media deal with Livestrong to hopefully appease the IRS investigators who have been long term encamped in Livestrong?

Or was it without the $6m contribution Livestrong's 2010 results would have looked abysmal and justify the criticism?

Gross revenues 2009 = $53m; 2010 = $48m. Deduct $6m from 2010 and you see a problem.

 

[Velodude]

Didn't the lab come up with a completely different ratio than 11:1 in the B test and the T:E test was subsequently thrown out because of testing errors in the final USADA judgement? Landis was still done in by the CIR test, but he would rightly be p!ssed if the only reason the CIR test was triggered was a lab error during the initial T:E screen, especially when he knows that everyone else would also fail a CIR test.

Funny enough, Joe Papp says that he was not using testosterone when he tested positive for it. It leads me to suspect that might be flaws with the test.

Only marginally. One was 12:1 the other 11:1.

If the science or procedures of the t/e test were proved in the Tribunal to be flawed then the doping rules would have not been complied with to rely on the CIR test.

Interesting point on the stand alone CIR test without relying on failing the t/e screening.

Since his 1996 testicular cancer removal Armstrong has admitted (Playboy interview) to chronic low testosterone. Historically, he could have but does not have a TUE for this condition. Damion Ressiot of L'Equipe proved in 2005 LA has no TUE's.

I understand Novitzky/FDA are in possession of LA's drug tests and samples.

The investigators are not restrained by WADA/UCI anti doping rules' thresholds for evidence that LA doped.

 

[patricknd]

Stop the presses, the hog and I are agreeing.

I dunno why the selective blackballing. The chicken gets blackballed, Basso is welcomed back with open arms....

Yes, they should have been allowed to ride for the reasons you state, ie to entice them to stfu, and on a tangent if they served their suspensions they should be able to compete IMO but I digress.

It is mind boggling that people that could blow the top off of this whole thing were treated like that. Now, shyt is coming home to roost with FL. Hopefully the whole sport is blown up. Yes, they thought nobody would go rogue. They thought wrong.

the chicken is a skinny geek and basso looks like a nice guy. he's easier to sell, we can all pretend to believe in redemption stories

 

[Polish]

Benefited with $20m + in recurring annual endorsements.

Benefited by being able to contribute the largest historic single donation ($6m) to his charity, Livestrong, in its hour of need.

Benefited in being able to authorise and arrange Livestrong payments to medico persons who assisted him in litigation.

Benefited by being able to make unique "donations" to the UCI and allegedly UCI persons of interest.

Benefited by topping numerous media and public polls as a result of his allegedly dope fueled performances.

Benefited by being feted by US Presidents, State Governors, rock stars, entertainers, business leaders and blond bimbo starlets.

BTW, Polish, being in the Livestrong inner sanctum why did LA contribute $6m to Livestrong in 2010?

Was it an act of contrition relating to the profit he made on the Demand Media deal with Livestrong to hopefully appease the IRS investigators who have been long term encamped in Livestrong?

Or was it without the $6m contribution Livestrong's 2010 results would have looked abysmal and justify the criticism?

Gross revenues 2009 = $53m; 2010 = $48m. Deduct $6m from 2010 and you see a problem.

Yes, Lance has been wildly successful.
Wildly successful on many different levels.
Many ventures, Lance Effect. Like Santa.

I'm just saying - doping has little to do with the success.
Heck, surviving cancer has more to do with his success, and even that is only a part of it. Being a big A Hole has a lot to do with it too.

But doping? Nope.
Heck, Floyd doped as much as Lance if not more.
The people who think doping = success are misled.

Getting back to Floyd, the topic of this thread btw, maybe Floyd should come clean on the real reasons he "came clean". He would probably feel better. I think things would end up working out better for him.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, Lance has been wildly successful.
Wildly successful on many different levels.
Many ventures, Lance Effect. Like Santa.

<snip>

Getting back to Floyd, the topic of this thread btw, maybe Floyd should come clean on the real reasons he "came clean". He would probably feel better. I think things would end up working out better for him.

When you have a 'straight to the podium in paris' card given to you by the international federation it aint too hard to be successful.

Floyd came clean for all the reasons he stated, Polly unless you know better, c'mon Pol give us all another giggle

 

[rhubroma]

*** edited by mod ***

It all gets confusing doesn't it? One day FL is a lying clown, the next day after he jams LA we are confronted with the confusing situation where we don't know whether to call him a liar when he says he knows nothing about hacking LNDD computers, or whether to give him a pass now when he still claims he has no idea how synthetic testosterone got into his system. By coincidence, not admitting that keeps him out of some legal troubles. What a shock.

So no, I don't see it like you do whether I am a fan, ie non-hater in binary clinic world, or not of LA.

FL could have changed the sport, and perhaps all sports, if he would have admitted at the time of the AAF that he did it, and spilled what he knew about the culture.

*** edited by mod ***

I understand why he didn't admit then, and why he chose to lie and fight with BS. But, I don't whitewash that lack of integrity at that time, and overinflate his integrity now just because LA was mean to him.

You raise a good point, and it is one of integrity as you say.

But you gotta admit the letter to Verbruggen was just f-ing brilliant, filled with irony and sarcasm (which alone says something about the man's character), while his revelations about Armstrong and Postal ironic in that it took the bully to bring them out.

It must boil down to Karma. Plus the affair seems like David vs. Golaith.

 

[Caruut]

Yes, Lance has been wildly successful.
Wildly successful on many different levels.
Many ventures, Lance Effect. Like Santa.

I'm just saying - doping has little to do with the success.
Heck, surviving cancer has more to do with his success, and even that is only a part of it. Being a big A Hole has a lot to do with it too.

But doping? Nope.
Heck, Floyd doped as much as Lance if not more.
The people who think doping = success are misled.

Getting back to Floyd, the topic of this thread btw, maybe Floyd should come clean on the real reasons he "came clean". He would probably feel better. I think things would end up working out better for him.

Doping does not mean success, but no doping meant no success. Ergo some success is down to doping.

 

[fatandfast]

Benefited with $20m + in recurring annual endorsements.

Benefited by being able to contribute the largest historic single donation ($6m) to his charity, Livestrong, in its hour of need.

Benefited in being able to authorise and arrange Livestrong payments to medico persons who assisted him in litigation.

Benefited by being able to make unique "donations" to the UCI and allegedly UCI persons of interest.

Benefited by topping numerous media and public polls as a result of his allegedly dope fueled performances.

Benefited by being feted by US Presidents, State Governors, rock stars, entertainers, business leaders and blond bimbo starlets.

BTW, Polish, being in the Livestrong inner sanctum why did LA contribute $6m to Livestrong in 2010?

Was it an act of contrition relating to the profit he made on the Demand Media deal with Livestrong to hopefully appease the IRS investigators who have been long term encamped in Livestrong?

Or was it without the $6m contribution Livestrong's 2010 results would have looked abysmal and justify the criticism?

Gross revenues 2009 = $53m; 2010 = $48m. Deduct $6m from 2010 and you see a problem.

why dispute your numbers, we can all assume that the Lance dope cash is correct. The problem is that the statement about the top benefactors @the top 100, Lance is nowhere close. The total revenue from all of pro cycling world wide isn't the Gatorade budget of the NFL. The NBA spends more washing towels than pro cycling does for the entire caravan. I would love to see Lance and Arod at the poker table Alex could just buy him off the table.
Did you forget when Tiger Woods had his blood put in a centrifuge ? The doctor in question had no US medical license and flew by private plane to administer treatment and then left the country before any could conclude if what was happening was legal.
Yes Pharmstrong may have got a tankful from time to time but the money involved is is a heavy tip for guys in real pro sports. Rooney probably has spent more on sausages than most pro riders make in a life time. Do a DNA on Beckham I am sure that as many times as he has been broken a doctors has used "new techniques" to get him back on the bench or field so that the millions can keep rolling in, Lance nowhere near the top of the list

 

[thehog]

why dispute your numbers, we can all assume that the Lance dope cash is correct. The problem is that the statement about the top benefactors @the top 100, Lance is nowhere close. The total revenue from all of pro cycling world wide isn't the Gatorade budget of the NFL. The NBA spends more washing towels than pro cycling does for the entire caravan. I would love to see Lance and Arod at the poker table Alex could just buy him off the table.
Did you forget when Tiger Woods had his blood put in a centrifuge ? The doctor in question had no US medical license and flew by private plane to administer treatment and then left the country before any could conclude if what was happening was legal.
Yes Pharmstrong may have got a tankful from time to time but the money involved is is a heavy tip for guys in real pro sports. Rooney probably has spent more on sausages than most pro riders make in a life time. Do a DNA on Beckham I am sure that as many times as he has been broken a doctors has used "new techniques" to get him back on the bench or field so that the millions can keep rolling in, Lance nowhere near the top of the list

I agree. It's small change compared to major US sports. But I also think because cycling was (is) a low profile sport in America it allowed Armstrong to fly under the radar with his tax and the way he channelled earnings from Europe to the US.

He got away with it for so long and the more he got away it the more people loved him. It was an easy choice to make.

It's sad to say but he'll be going to prison. I really hope not but when the brown stuff it's the fan it's going to be everywhere. But I true,y believe it will be good for him. Make a man out of him. There will be plenty of father figures in jail.

 

[Velodude]

why dispute your numbers, we can all assume that the Lance dope cash is correct. The problem is that the statement about the top benefactors @the top 100, Lance is nowhere close. The total revenue from all of pro cycling world wide isn't the Gatorade budget of the NFL. The NBA spends more washing towels than pro cycling does for the entire caravan. I would love to see Lance and Arod at the poker table Alex could just buy him off the table.
Did you forget when Tiger Woods had his blood put in a centrifuge ? The doctor in question had no US medical license and flew by private plane to administer treatment and then left the country before any could conclude if what was happening was legal.
Yes Pharmstrong may have got a tankful from time to time but the money involved is is a heavy tip for guys in real pro sports. Rooney probably has spent more on sausages than most pro riders make in a life time. Do a DNA on Beckham I am sure that as many times as he has been broken a doctors has used "new techniques" to get him back on the bench or field so that the millions can keep rolling in, Lance nowhere near the top of the list

FatandFast (you realise your nick is an oxymoron? )

I saw a men's magazine list of the current 69 (why would they use that number?) estimated top US earners in sport as athletes.

Armstrong should have been on that list as it bottomed out at $10m.

Most probably never considered as he "retired" in 2011 after Comeback 2.0 in 2009.

BTW I believe that Comeback 2.0 should be Comeback 3.0 as he could not hack Comeback 1 in March 1998 and threw the towel in after Paris-Nice and had to be persuaded to take up riding again. The steeling of his determination through surviving cancer must have developed after his second comeback in July 1998 .

On that list of 69 are sports like car racing drivers (athletes?) who would not be benefactors of PEDs.

If there is evidence that Tiger Woods was using an unlicensed physician to administer any medical procedure why don't you report this fact to the FDA?

That is on the list under investigation for wonderboy for the issue of indictments by the GJ.

 

[Velodude]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/exclusive-landis-responds-to-hacking-sentence

From the CN article:

This morning Landis woke to an an e-mail from his French attorney's assistant Emilie Bailly.

"I'm sorry to inform you that the correctional Court judges that you were guilty of receiving stolen property (Article 321-1 of the French Criminal Code) and, therefore, sentenced you to 12 months of suspended imprisonment."

His attorney also writes saying that the French court also found him guilty of "fraudulent access in the LNDD automated data processing system, which is a misdemeanor punishable by Article 323-1of the French Criminal Code."

Floyd is playing with words when he claims he has received no paperwork from the court. He has instructed a French lawyer to represent him before the court and the court is dealing with this lawyer - not directly with FL.

In an effort to give his side of the story his French attorney Emmanel Daoud read a statement written by Landis to the judge presiding over his case, Mme Prévost-Desprez.

In the letter Landis states that he received an anonymous package which contained documents from the LNDD.

"To this day I do not know who mailed them, how they were acquired, or why. In fact I'm not certain that these are even the documents in question in this current 'hacking' case but I'm led to believe that they may be as they are the only thing I received anonymously which appear to be from the LNDD lab," Landis wrote.

In the USADA Tribunal Landis, through his lawyer, claimed the documents were located in the public domain. Landis misled the Tribunal as the documents were not admissable as evidence if they had been improperly obtained.

 

[Caruut]

On that list of 69 are sports like car racing drivers (athletes?) who would not be benefactors of PEDs.

Gotta take you up on that - surely there are PEDs that improve reaction times, speed of thought, concentration and the accuracy and speed of twitch muscles. If so, then racing drivers have something to benefit from them.

Obviously not as much as a cyclist, runner or NFL player, but if no-ones gonna test you, then why not?

 

[Ferminal]

Gotta take you up on that - surely there are PEDs that improve reaction times, speed of thought, concentration and the accuracy and speed of twitch muscles. If so, then racing drivers have something to benefit from them.

Also making those decisions when you're fighting fatigue. Motorsport is physically demanding, it's not a video game.

 

[Cloxxki]

Also making those decisions when you're fighting fatigue. Motorsport is physically demanding, it's not a video game.

Indeed. I was a national level MTBér and more than decent indoor hobby go-carter, especially considering my weight. It totally kicked my **** physically. 10 minutes would already be an issue, just sitting there turning the wheel.
And indoor go-carting is like a stroll around the block in an electric wheelchair compared to something like F1. Anyone reading this, would likely pass out in an F1 car, within 5 minutes. From G forces alone. Races take 1.5 hours+. The brake on an F1 car wouls set off regular airbags. The cockpits get crazy hot at times. And it's bumpy.
F1 drivers tend to be freaky on the football pitch or riding a bicycle. They need to that fit. A strong programme would totally make a difference for them.
Know how some tennis players barely break a sweat in epic games? Some F1 drivers are like that. Those who aren't that way naturally, would benefit to become that way.

 

[Velodude]

Gotta take you up on that - surely there are PEDs that improve reaction times, speed of thought, concentration and the accuracy and speed of twitch muscles. If so, then racing drivers have something to benefit from them.

Obviously not as much as a cyclist, runner or NFL player, but if no-ones gonna test you, then why not?

If you can cite a case where a car driver benefited from PEDs to improve his winnings, rankings etc, I would agree.

Lance Armstrong was a cyclist who struggled to finish a TdF 1993-1996 and was not a competitive climber. Ferrari and allegedly a superior drug program changed all that 1999-2005. No comparisons in motor racing.

Motor racing is a sport of natural talent and all the top F1 drivers careers can be traced back to early childhood successes in go-kart racing. You cannot drug improve seat of the pants judgments and precision hand-eye coordination.

If a driver is required to make a sudden wheel correction reaction then the speed of the car is impaired. Optimum lap times come from smooth driving.

 

[Andynonomous]

I believe it is all a matter of degree. The sports that require the most human speed, and or strength, and or endurance, would be helped the most by PEDs. The sports that are almost pure skill, would be helped the least.

That doesn't mean that the skill sports have no PEDs, but it likely means that the results are less corrupted by PEDs than more physical sports.

 

[Caruut]

If you can cite a case where a car driver benefited from PEDs to improve his winnings, rankings etc, I would agree.

Lance Armstrong was a cyclist who struggled to finish a TdF 1993-1996 and was not a competitive climber. Ferrari and allegedly a superior drug program changed all that 1999-2005. No comparisons in motor racing.

Motor racing is a sport of natural talent and all the top F1 drivers careers can be traced back to early childhood successes in go-kart racing. You cannot drug improve seat of the pants judgments and precision hand-eye coordination.

If a driver is required to make a sudden wheel correction reaction then the speed of the car is impaired. Optimum lap times come from smooth driving.

Well, I cannot cite a case - I was merely pointing out the potential benefits to a driver who was prepared to dope. Given the way many motor sports are run (thoroughly in-house and with no IOC involvement) it wouldn't surprise me if testing was sparse.

It involves a lot of natural talent yes, but possibly the reason most race drivers had go-karting success as youngsters is that years and years of driving experience are needed to produce a top-level driver. With no success at karting, a youngster is less likely to carry on. Therefore, most drivers were karters as youngsters.

Still, a little extra help with focus, reactions and endurance wouldn't hurt, if you knew you weren't going to get caught out. Hell, it might even be healthier for a driver to dope. Many drivers are in situations where a fraction of a second is all that's between them and a crash. An extra boost could save their lives.

The potential benefit in motor racing would be far less than in cycling, so of course there is no Lance-like case. In a sport where so much depends on another factor (the car) you'd expect that wild swings in performance were indeed down to that.

In F1 racing at least, though not so much in American racing maybe, overtaking skill is a large part of a drivers' ability to perform. It's all very well getting in behind someone, but drafting gives little long-term benefit (because the hot air from the car in front reduces peak engine performance). So, once you're behind someone you've gotta pass them. That is where the quick thinking plays in.

 

[Caruut]

I believe it is all a matter of degree. The sports that require the most human speed, and or strength, and or endurance, would be helped the most by PEDs. The sports that are almost pure skill, would be helped the least.

That doesn't mean that the skill sports have no PEDs, but it likely means that the results are less corrupted by PEDs than more physical sports.

Stands to reason - you'd be unlikely to see a snooker player injecting EPO.

 

[Velodude]

Well, I cannot cite a case - I was merely pointing out the potential benefits to a driver who was prepared to dope. Given the way many motor sports are run (thoroughly in-house and with no IOC involvement) it wouldn't surprise me if testing was sparse.

It involves a lot of natural talent yes, but possibly the reason most race drivers had go-karting success as youngsters is that years and years of driving experience are needed to produce a top-level driver. With no success at karting, a youngster is less likely to carry on. Therefore, most drivers were karters as youngsters.

Still, a little extra help with focus, reactions and endurance wouldn't hurt, if you knew you weren't going to get caught out. Hell, it might even be healthier for a driver to dope. Many drivers are in situations where a fraction of a second is all that's between them and a crash. An extra boost could save their lives.

The potential benefit in motor racing would be far less than in cycling, so of course there is no Lance-like case. In a sport where so much depends on another factor (the car) you'd expect that wild swings in performance were indeed down to that.

In F1 racing at least, though not so much in American racing maybe, overtaking skill is a large part of a drivers' ability to perform. It's all very well getting in behind someone, but drafting gives little long-term benefit (because the hot air from the car in front reduces peak engine performance). So, once you're behind someone you've gotta pass them. That is where the quick thinking plays in.

Caffeine is a PED that was removed from the banned list years ago that has been scientifically proven to increase reaction time amongst other ergogenic benefits.

I have been involved in motor racing and have not heard of or witnessed drivers taking caffeine before races for the purpose of improving reaction times.

 

[sniper]

Stands to reason - you'd be unlikely to see a snooker player injecting EPO.

the top snooker players and (perhaps even more so) darts players are quite likely to take some sort of peds, some types of tranquilizers that do not cause fatigue, but simply keep the hands from shaking and increase concentration.
Also, I'm not sure about snooker players, but darts players can smoke weed, sniff coke, and drink alcohol and coffee all they want without breaking the rules.

But I tend to agree with andynonomous: the results from 'pure skill' sports are less corrupted through peds.

 

[blutto]

Stands to reason - you'd be unlikely to see a snooker player injecting EPO.

...there was an incident years ago where the then current snooker world champion was tossed for using beta blockers...and in related news, during the same era, beta blockers were so overused in darts that peoples heart rates were so low they were literally on the verge of stopping...go figure eh!....

Cheers

blutto

 

[fatandfast]

I agree. It's small change compared to major US sports. But I also think because cycling was (is) a low profile sport in America it allowed Armstrong to fly under the radar with his tax and the way he channelled earnings from Europe to the US.

He got away with it for so long and the more he got away it the more people loved him. It was an easy choice to make.

It's sad to say but he'll be going to prison. I really hope not but when the brown stuff it's the fan it's going to be everywhere. But I true,y believe it will be good for him. Make a man out of him. There will be plenty of father figures in jail.

I think some of the reasons you give are why Lance is not in more trouble. His taxes are done by professionals. So little of his income comes from racing has to be a big advantage. The fact that there are a few hundred athletes that make a living at racing a bike in the US also has to help him. He stands alone in his peer group/tax bracket.
The fact that the long list of accusers is mixed with Andersons( boy Friday that he didn't fund bike shop for, was fine until he was fired) Andreau, Hamilton.
Who can forget Landis ,told one story wrote it down, went on a press junket and then when the world caved in, came clean. Not really clean, clean w a reason, it's all Lance's fault. I would still love to get a bottle of JD and find out just what Lance had to do w Phonak. Poor Novitzky ,probably head in hands wonders how he could have been dealt such a huge bag of sh-t when it comes to witnesses. When he tries to find an example of a clean, well run bike racing organization in the US he finds some of the most bizarre tax returns known to man. Most probably make the studio apt animal rescue groups
taking 1000's in deductions appear legit. Lance may be dirty but the company he has kept will make him look clean in comparison.
I still dream of Landis on the stand, Lance's defense team with multiple copies of French court rulings, tour urine test results and copies of Positively False w dozens of post it notes sticking out of it. God help him if Lance through one of his financial misdirections gave money to the Floyd Fairness Fund..bombshell.

"Mr.Landis, you are currently employed as an aspiring race car driver is that right?". If that won't get the courtroom rolling on the floor nothing will. I would let him explain his last 10 years of sort of telling the truth and then get into the race car thing.
When Landis gets audited for the Fairness Fund it's game over.