Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[Page Mill Masochist]

Regardless of Armstrong's character, any sport at the very top level is alot more than physical. Much more than plugging values in a calculator. Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

Of course Armstrong was a tough competitor. I acknowledge that. But show me a cyclist who isn't tough at that level. Did Armstrong ever grind his teeth down to nubs?

You're side's only answer to hard facts like 39 hct and 84 VO2 max is the myth that somehow Armstrong's will and courage were sufficiently singular to leapfrog everyone else 7 times in a row.

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

It's much easier to be "mentally tuff" when you've just infused more blood, all recharged up from testosterone, having taken advantage of HGH and steroids, and knowing your results will get covered up even if you do fail a test. Knowing your opponents don't have the same freedom you do has to be a good boost to "tuffness".

Brilliantly said!

 

[Bosco10]

What about SCA Promotions vs. Lance Armstrong?

 

[thehog]

+10 VO2 max? Due to mental toughness? You've got to be kidding. You are drastically overstating the mental/physical relationship. Aside from that, it's much easier to be "mentally tuff" when you've just infused more blood, all recharged up from testosterone, having taken advantage of HGH and steroids, and knowing your results will get covered up even if you do fail a test. Knowing your opponents don't have the same freedom you do has to be a good boost to "tuffness".

This is 110% correct.

 

[Velodude]

Of course. When Tyler spanks you on Ventoux in the Dauphine, you need the "psychological intensification" to change out of your now sh*t-stained chamois and call Hein to have Tyler summoned to UCI hq.

And Tyler's HCT base reading of 38 was less than Armstrong's 39!

(Tyler defended that the UCI's mobile testing centrifuge was subject to rough handling in being transported and therefore unreliable)

 

[Velodude]

Of course Armstrong was a tough competitor. I acknowledge that. But show me a cyclist who isn't tough at that level. Did Armstrong ever grind his teeth down to nubs?

You're side's only answer to hard facts like 39 hct and 84 VO2 max is the myth that somehow Armstrong's will and courage were sufficiently singular to leapfrog everyone else 7 times in a row.

And Armstrong's "mental toughness" appears to be a corollary of a superior doping program.

In TdF's 1993-1996 Armstrong only finished 1 TdF in 35th place on an apparent haphazard doping program. He was not a top shelf climber or TTer to threaten the yellow jersey.

In his only true stage win during this period (aside from the peloton allowing USPS to win a stage following the accidental death in the 1995 Tour of team rider Fabio Casartelli) the team had to drag Armstrong out of bed to start the next day's stage. He abandoned on that stage.

1999-2005 Armstrong developed a "mental toughness" through contracting the exclusive services of Dr Ferrari for himself and the team and having the UCI ride shotgun for him.

 

[D-Queued]

And Tyler's HCT base reading of 38 was less than Armstrong's 39!

(Tyler defended that the UCI's mobile testing centrifuge was subject to rough handling in being transported and therefore unreliable)

This is confusing.

A centrifuge just spins. It is not a measurement device.

Was it unreliable in not turning on/off?

Dave.

 

[Kennf1]

What about SCA Promotions vs. Lance Armstrong?

Nobody really knows. However, the Texas Lawyer (a small periodical covering, you guessed it, Texas lawyers) had a front page spread this week featuring Armstrong's team of Breen and Herman. At the end of the article they discussed the SCA case, and they even interviewed SCA's attorney about the featured lawyers Breen and Herman. His quote:

"They are worthy opponents," Tillotson says of Breen and Herman. "I like them so much, I look forward to seeing them in a lawsuit with Lance Armstrong very soon."

 

[Jack Aubrey]

"Almost universally acknowledged...." - by whom?
You are right that it was more than just his doping - his ability to bribe and bully people should also be acknowledged. I guess that could be called mental.

Tyler Hamilton for one

 

[Velodude]

This is confusing.

A centrifuge just spins. It is not a measurement device.

Was it unreliable in not turning on/off?

Dave.

They have HCT analyzers incorporated in the device.

This would be the sensitive measuring component that Hamilton claimed was questionable in the UCI's equipment.

He also claimed that all teams carried their own centrifuges as there was universal distrust of the UCI's model - ho hum [roll eyes].

But, strangely, it was extremely rare for the UCI to enforce a rest period for health reasons on a rider for exceeding the 50% hct threshold. The unreliable UCI machine must have been reading low!

 

[Jack Aubrey]

+10 VO2 max? QUOTE]

Point d'interrogation (?) That was a question. No idea what it would be worth except more than zero. The point is that it is not as simple as saying the guy with the highest (dope free) VO 2 max wins.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

 

[Bosco10]

He was prone to saddle sores too.

 

[D-Queued]

They have HCT analyzers incorporated in the device.

This would be the sensitive measuring component that Hamilton claimed was questionable in the UCI's equipment.

He also claimed that all teams carried their own centrifuges as there was universal distrust of the UCI's model - ho hum [roll eyes].

But, strangely, it was extremely rare for the UCI to enforce a rest period for health reasons on a rider for exceeding the 50% hct threshold. The unreliable UCI machine must have been reading low!

Not to argue, but still not sure. I think that either the 'capillaries' are graduated in some fashion and/or they use an index card as a measurement scale.

Following centrifugation, the hematocrit value can be read using a special evaluation disc.

Also:

http://www.hettichlab.com/appc/_upload/2012_21/AB2104DEENFRIT0.pdf (See P. 33)

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

No, you don't have that right.

In the original complaint to Judge Sparks, he mentioned something about 4th place (out of 4?) in a high school swimming contest (and co-ed for all we know) when he was 13 or something.

With that kind of potential, for Lance to achieve 50th place in the Tour de Gila would require PEDs.

Dave.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

He was prone to saddle sores too.

Good one!!

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

Without "all that" he might have stayed in triathlons. I don't know enough about his pre-Ferrari doping to hazard a guess on his pro cycling opportunities. How much did his doping contribute to his 1993 WC win? He certainly looked like a steroid user back then. Was he yet into oxygen vector doping back then?

I am 100% certain we can say that Armstrong never would have become a great GT rider without "all that."

 

[DirtyWorks]

How much did his doping contribute to his 1993 WC win? He certainly looked like a steroid user back then. Was he yet into oxygen vector doping back then?

We know in 90 Carmichael was doping juniors Wonderboy and Hincapie and Strock and others.... This is about the time Amgen and Amgen's angel investor Weisel get involved in the sport.

He didn't take any doping breaks between then and USPS that's for sure. Do we know with any confidence if he was an early EPO adopter? No.

 

[VeloCity]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

Ask Tyler.

WALSH: I ask a question. “If no-one had doped, how many Tours would Armstrong have won?”

HAMILTON: “Look what he did in his four Tours before his cancer. He never competed in the mountains. With no-one doping, he couldn’t have won seven. Maybe he could have won one. Maybe, I don’t know.”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106723113/Walsh-Hamilton

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Tyler Hamilton for one

So - "Almost universally acknowledged...." is now one person - also, I just did a quick check of Tylers book and he does not mention Lance being "absolute toughest mentally" anywhere.

 

[Fatclimber]

+10 VO2 max? QUOTE]

Point d'interrogation (?) That was a question. No idea what it would be worth except more than zero. The point is that it is not as simple as saying the guy with the highest (dope free) VO 2 max wins.

I don't recall anyone saying that the highest VO2 max wins but to ignore it as an important factor in determining performance is absurd. Once again, I think you overestimate the increase in performance resulting from psychological intensification. Can you tell me how to measure psychological intensification abilities in athletes? If it can't be measured, which maybe I'm going out on a limb by assuming that it can't, how could you possibly compare him to other athletes in this regard?

Mental toughness is not what enabled Armstrong to gain almost 2 minutes on Ullrich on L'Alpe d' Huez in 2001, nor is it what caused him to lose over 2 minutes to Iban Mayo in 2003.

 

[MarkvW]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

Outstanding analysis.

 

[D-Queued]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

Outstanding analysis.

Oh, Jack came up with that?

Sorry, I thought he was quoting the most recently updated Wikipedia profile.

And there I was making jokes about it.

Dave.

 

[shojii]

Armstrong report by October 15....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/7736031/Armstrong-lifetime-ban-report-by-October-15

Sorry if reposted.

 

[Fatclimber]

OK If I got this right now: Armstrong was just an average joe triathlete/cyclist who only succeeded because he was a bully, was doped to his gills on everything under the sun, and had all the authorities covering for him. Without all that, he could only manage 50th place in the Tour de Gila.

This is a perfect representation of the tragedy of the situation. Since doping became the competitors method of choice, reality in fantasy are indistinguishable. We will never know who the real champions are since Indurain took charge. You can give lance armstrong all the accolades you want, but I'd put my money on a clean Moncoutie vs a clean armstrong on a climb up the Ventoux.

 

[LeLanternRouge]

Ah, my first post...

On the topic of mental toughness and psychological intensification:

Being an avid sports fan, I find that "mental toughness" is a quality which is only measurable in truly adverse conditions. We speak of mental toughness and psychological intensification in instances where an athlete is at a significant disadvantage as compared either to his rivals or to his normal physiological state of being, instances such as sickness, fatigue, grief, mechanical failure, etc.

It is therefore difficult to come to any conclusion with regard to Armstrong's mental toughness because, both by his own design and by the great privilege of luck, he never faced adverse conditions. Of all the Grand Tours, he focused exclusively on Le Tour, thereby reducing to almost nil the possibility of being overly fatigued for Le Tour or coming into Le Tour with an injury.

During his 7 years with U. S. Postal/Discovery and subsequent return with Astana, he always rode with the best team in the peloton. He had the best domestiques, the best support staff and, beyond this competitive advantage, he had the best doctors and the best system of doping and masking. His doping also meant that he fatigued far less than other likely more talented cyclists.

In none of his 7 victories did he suffer any significant mechanical failure apart from a slight pedal malfunction for 1 mountain stage in 2003. His entourage of bodyguards and lawyers insulated him from the criticisms of doubters and probing journalists and ensured that all he had to focus on was his training and his doping strategy.

I cannot think of any great tragedy, such as a death in the family or some debilitating illness, that has ever befallen him during his period of dominance.

Armstrong was no doubt extremely competitive, but there's absolutely no evidence that he is truly mentally tough, because he's never had to rely on mental toughness to win anything. The circumstances for his victories were almost cruelly ideal to his advantage and to the disadvantage of his opponents.