Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[Race Radio]

The Hog:

Between Lance, Bill Stapleton, and me, we have close to half [of Postal team ownership]

http://soundcloud.com/djcoyle/bruyneel-1-on-las-team

Just a rider? Yeah, right

November 2004

 

[D-Queued]

The Hog:

Between Lance, Bill Stapleton, and me, we have close to half [of Postal team ownership]

http://soundcloud.com/djcoyle/bruyneel-1-on-las-team

Just a rider? Yeah, right

November 2004

As not everyone may understand the relevance.

In Lance's deposition for the SCA arbitration on 30 November 2005 (i.e. one year after the recording), Lance claimed not to have any ownership stake.

The ownership stake is is also related to the FDA investigation.

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

http://soundcloud.com/djcoyle/ferrari-clip-4-you-have-to-be

Ferrari says Armstrong's natural Hct is 45-46

Funny how none of the test results supported this claim. Off season baseline in 2009 was 39

 

[sniper]

As not everyone may understand the relevance.

In Lance's deposition for the SCA arbitration on 30 November 2005 (i.e. one year after the recording), Lance claimed not to have any ownership stake.

The ownership stake is is also related to the FDA investigation.

Dave.

Can we conclude the SCA lawyers did a lousy job not finding that hog-interview?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As not everyone may understand the relevance.

In Lance's deposition for the SCA arbitration on 30 November 2005 (i.e. one year after the recording), Lance claimed not to have any ownership stake.

The ownership stake is is also related to the FDA investigation.

Dave.

Have to correct this - in his SCA deposition LA acknowledged he had a small ownership in Tailwind - he was quite vague on the amount and said Bill would know. When Bill hit the stand he too had a hard time remembering how much it was - must have been the chair - but thought it was around 11%.

It was at the Tour in 2010 that Amstrong made his "no ownership" comments.

Can we conclude the SCA lawyers did a lousy job not finding that hog-interview?

No.

 

[DirtyWorks]

gosh it must totally suk to be him. i didn't even think this would be half as much fun as it's been and we aren't at the cool part yet.

Agreed! The score as of 2012/09/26:
-Public hearing with Johann at USADA. Wonderboy possibly called.
-Second hearing outstanding for Pepe Marti'.
-Release of finding from USADA on Wonderboy's case.

Wild guess:
UCI will try to make stuff up to invalidate USADA, but can't because it makes an even bigger anti-doping controversy the IOC deplores. From a few pages ago, a Minister of Sport in France was sending a signal to ASO and I don't think it's controversial to suggest ASO over-rules the UCI on this matter.
UCI reluctantly accepts the USADA finding.

Further on:
There's civil lawsuits after the sanctions are reluctantly enforced. If we are really lucky, criminal proceedings on multiple fronts Wiesel, Knaggs, Stapleton, the whole Tailwind organization.

I've said this before, Wonderboy thinks he can somehow circumvent WADA by having his own events, but the fundamental problem here is the biggest events and their promoters are all WADA/IOC recognized. He can't make their money or steal their sponsors to pay his legal bills and maintain his celebrity status.

 

[thirteen]

looks like the files are coming out a little later than expected?

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency plans to hand over the Lance Armstrong case file to the Union Cycliste Internationale no later than October 15, the agency’s media relations manager tells VeloNews. The October date is much later than anticipated.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...new-goal-to-submit-armstrong-case-file_240019

 

[thehog]

http://triathlete-europe.competitor...am-not-banned-from-life/?utm_medium=whats-hot

"I am not banned from life"

 

[Cloxxki]

http://triathlete-europe.competitor...am-not-banned-from-life/?utm_medium=whats-hot

"I am not banned from life"

This time it's different, though. Not just sandbagging a little race.
He's racing "with the goal of raising money for cancer research".
Somehow, I am sceptical anything changed.

 

[the big ring]

From a few pages ago, a Minister of Sport in France was sending a signal to ASO and I don't think it's controversial to suggest ASO over-rules the UCI on this matter.

I won't search now, but I have read the ASO get the gendarme's for free, costing the country (through whichever expense account) BIG euros. Like 100,000s of euros.

If ASO don't play nice, they might not be making as much moolah in 2013.

Handy stick to wield.

 

[the big ring]

This time it's different, though. Not just sandbagging a little race.
He's racing "with the goal of raising money for cancer research".
Somehow, I am sceptical anything changed.

He started a new foundation then? Coz LAF dropped research years ago.

Compare and contrast:

Press release: http://triathlete-europe.competitor...am-not-banned-from-life/?utm_medium=whats-hot

How did you decide on SuperFrog for your next tri? Can you speak to your support of the SEALS and about the event as it reflects the roots of our sport?
Well, first and foremost, I’m a huge fan of the SEALS and every individual in the armed forces for that matter. Their level of sacrifice, dedication, loyalty and honor is unmatched. I’ve done two USO trips overseas to visit our troops and [am] always humbled by their commitment. I also had the opportunity to meet some of the guys on SEALS Team 10 at the 2005 Tour de France, yes, the seventh one that I won. Amazing guys. Then in ‘08 I spent a day at the training facility in Coronado with them during “hell week,” spoke to the guys, and even did their famous obstacle course, which scared the living **** out of me. The SuperFrog guys had been asking me for years to come out and race but it never fit into my schedule for some reason or another until now. I’m super excited to be there and to support them.

Reality: http://www.azfixed.com/vanilla2/comments.php?DiscussionID=1713

So one of the guys who I trained with this morning said Lance Armstrong came to visit them on the last day of "Hell Week". Apparently he brought a camera crew and it was all for some TV show or something. Well this company of SEAL recruits just spent 4 days being physically torchered and moving non-stop with only a combined 4 hours of sleep for the week. They are wet, their skin is rubbed raw by the sand in their cammies, and they could give a **** about Lance Armstrong and would just like to collapse in a heap. Well Lance comes out and runs the 'O course' (an extremely rough obstacle course), stopping for photos and smiling the whole way. The recruits didn't think there was anything funny or cute about this, and were a little offended by his clean look.

Later Lance essentially gets up and gives them a "motivational speech", comparing the Tour de France with BUD/s training. Well, the tour may be 3 weeks, but BUD/s is 16-hour days of non-stop torture for 6 months. There is a 75% attrition rate. But he gets up and gives this mundane motivational speech and all the guys have a '**** off' attitude.

So Q&A comes along and the guys get a little fresh with him. One guy made a comment that Lance was only successful because he had no balls(original).

 

[Jack Aubrey]

looks like the files are coming out a little later than expected?


http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...new-goal-to-submit-armstrong-case-file_240019

Lance threw them a serious curveball. They were planning on presenting to arbitration where they have a 95% success rate.They have probably had to re-evaluate everything considering that USADA must consider UCI hostile to the decision

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lance threw them a serious curveball. They were planning on presenting to arbitration where they have a 95% success rate.They have probably had to re-evaluate everything considering that USADA must consider UCI hostile to the decision

Arbitration would have been months away - UCI are only hostile because they are complicit. Funny thing is in insisting in getting the reasoned decision they will probably receive every bit of damning information.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This time it's different, though. Not just sandbagging a little race.
He's racing "with the goal of raising money for cancer research".
Somehow, I am sceptical anything changed.

In his head? This is like every other time, "rules are for everyone else" Except, he's running into much more powerful forces now. Will he prevail? Doubtful. The facts are working against him now and it's like trying to hold back the tide.

Don't be surprised if Wonderboy gets associated with some crazy misbehaviour in the coming months. The internal dissonance must sound like thunder overhead.

 

[D-Queued]

Can we conclude the SCA lawyers did a lousy job not finding that hog-interview?

Unfortunately, not.

We can conclude that SCA did not anticipate that their hole-in-one contract could be gamed by a doping cyclist with a history of paying off his competition to 'win' large purses. Apparently SCA had no insight into the depravity within the sport of cycling.

wrt to Tailwind, Lance had the anti-doping provisions removed from his contract alone.

Unfortunately, since there was no doping provision explicitly mentioned in the SCA contract, this additional insight into ownership structure and the conflict of interest over Lance's contract had a limited audience at the time.

Should Lance lose his titles, however, and hence his 'hole-in-ones' then we may have a very different scenario.

Dave.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Unfortunately, not.

We can conclude that SCA did not anticipate that their hole-in-one contract could be gamed by a doping cyclist with a history of paying off his competition to 'win' large purses. Apparently SCA had no insight into the depravity within the sport of cycling.

wrt to Tailwind, Lance had the anti-doping provisions removed from his contract alone.

Unfortunately, since there was no doping provision explicitly mentioned in the SCA contract, this additional insight into ownership structure and the conflict of interest over Lance's contract had a limited audience at the time.

Should Lance lose his titles, however, and hence his 'hole-in-ones' then we may have a very different scenario.

Dave.

Wow...that is not small news......I think the audience is much more interested today than it was then.

Maybe a Charlie Sheen meltdown is forthcoming.

 

[BroDeal]

http://soundcloud.com/djcoyle/ferrari-clip-4-you-have-to-be

Ferrari says Armstrong's natural Hct is 45-46

Funny how none of the test results supported this claim. Off season baseline in 2009 was 39

Wow. 39. That is why Armstrong got such a boost over everyone else from blood doping.

 

[sittingbison]

Yup, especially if you factor in a race day level of 60. And if his nearest competitor Der Kaiser refused to go over his natural level of 42 after 2000.

Even the legal limit of 50 gives him a significant advantage ove natural 45s that juice to 50.

But let's not forget his heart was as large as Phar Laps (thus the aerodynamic hump), and the tube to his legs (whatever that's called) was thread times normal size. According to acoggan or Coyle or someone - a scientist of some sort. Probably with a PhD

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

Yup, especially if you factor in a race day level of 60. And if his nearest competitor Der Kaiser refused to go over his natural level of 42 after 2000.

Even the legal limit of 50 gives him a significant advantage ove natural 45s that juice to 50.

But let's not forget his heart was as large as Phar Laps (thus the aerodynamic hump), and the tube to his legs (whatever that's called) was thread times normal size. According to acoggan or Coyle or someone - a scientist of some sort. Probably with a PhD

Let's keep our Coyles straight! Ed is the apologizer. Daniel is the truth teller.

Anyway, a Silicon Valley cyclist geek friend calculated that Armstrong needed a VO2 max of 95 to climb Alpe d'Huez in the mid 37s, as he did in 2001 and 2004. But we know Armstrong's best tested VO2 max was 84 (compared to 89 for Hinaut and 92 for LeMond.) So Armstrong's Edgar and Dracula boost was indeed larger than most. Probably in the range of 15% versus his normal self.

Interestingly, Armstrong's VO2 max of 84 was the same as the runner, Steve Prefontaine. Pre was a great personality, but he never got close to a world record, his times look slow today, and his only Olympic appearance yielded a 4th place finish.

I see the natural Armstrong and Pre as being equals: two guys who made the sport more interesting, had a bold daring style, but weren't at the top and never could be.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

Let's keep our Coyles straight! Ed is the apologizer. Daniel is the truth teller.

Anyway, a Silicon Valley cyclist geek friend calculated that Armstrong needed a VO2 max of 95 to climb Alpe d'Huez in the mid 37s, as he did in 2001 and 2004. But we know Armstrong's best tested VO2 max was 84 (compared to 89 for Hinaut and 92 for LeMond.) So Armstrong's Edgar and Dracula boost was indeed larger than most. Probably in the range of 15% versus his normal self.

Interestingly, Armstrong's VO2 max of 84 was the same as the runner, Steve Prefontaine. Pre was a great personality, but he never got close to a world record, his times look slow today, and his only Olympic appearance yielded a 4th place finish.

I see the natural Armstrong and Pre as being equals: two guys who made the sport more interesting, had a bold daring style, but weren't at the top and never could be.

Regardless of Armstrong's character, any sport at the very top level is alot more than physical. Much more than plugging values in a calculator. Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Regardless of Armstrong's character, any sport at the very top level is alot more than physical. Much more than plugging values in a calculator. Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

"Almost universally acknowledged...." - by whom?
You are right that it was more than just his doping - his ability to bribe and bully people should also be acknowledged. I guess that could be called mental.

 

[autologous]

Regardless of Armstrong's character, any sport at the very top level is alot more than physical. Much more than plugging values in a calculator. Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

Of course. When Tyler spanks you on Ventoux in the Dauphine, you need the "psychological intensification" to change out of your now sh*t-stained chamois and call Hein to have Tyler summoned to UCI hq.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

Not this again. The answer is no. No amount of willpower will improve an athlete's output over 20 hours accumulated stage racing, much less 20 minutes over a one-day event.

This much has been made repeatedly and abundantly clear, Wonderboy was an extraordinary responder to oxygen vector doping. ex. EPO/CERA/transfusions/whatever. Without it, he's beat by national talent as happened at the Tour of the Gila.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't expect much in the way of lawsuits against Lance.

Maybe the ASO could sue him for fraud. That would be Earth-shatteringly stupendous.

But otherwise, it appears Lance insulated himself from liability by working through corporations (limited liability corporations). The corporations (if they have any money) can be sued, but Lance isn't likely going to get touched.

I guess that the qui tam could be provable against Tailwind, but tagging Armstrong or Weasel personally for liability is another question entirely.

Proving damages would be a huge problem, also.
And then there is the big problem of proving an old case. Stuff gets lost, memories fade.
And then there is the statute of limitations problem. Seems a good argument that the clock's been ticking since May, 2010, at least.

Don't get your hopes up.

 

[Fatclimber]

Regardless of Armstrong's character, any sport at the very top level is alot more than physical. Much more than plugging values in a calculator. Whatever anyone thinks of him, he is almost universally acknowledged as being one of the absolute toughest mentally. Is that worth + 10 VO2 max? Read up on psychological intensification. You can be rabidly anti-Armstrong but claiming his performance is only due to doping is ignorant.

+10 VO2 max? Due to mental toughness? You've got to be kidding. You are drastically overstating the mental/physical relationship. Aside from that, it's much easier to be "mentally tuff" when you've just infused more blood, all recharged up from testosterone, having taken advantage of HGH and steroids, and knowing your results will get covered up even if you do fail a test. Knowing your opponents don't have the same freedom you do has to be a good boost to "tuffness".