Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[johnsiviour]

Owen Slot wrote an interesting piece over the weekend for The Times. The gist of which is that the Armstrong claim to Oprah that 09/10 were ridden clean is to use the SoL to have his ban reduced and to limit legal actions from sponsors.

From above article:

"The UCI has sanctioned the lifetime ban yet, on a first offence, Armstrong could argue that he should have received a two-year ban — starting from the moment of confession. He could therefore challenge the UCI at the Court of Arbitration for Sport. Given all he knows about the UCI, he might get a decent settlement out of it."

To the bolded...I was/am under the impression that LA is out of time to appeal to CAS??? Please correct impression if false. Ta

 

[johnsiviour]

First offence???

Also given the overwhelming evidence: LA arguing 3rd offence let alone 2nd or for that matter 1st offence borders on ludicrous. Strikes me as a pretty lame/poor arguement. Hence even a true mea culpa with full disclosure would seem fortunate to garner only an eight year ban.

 

[thehog]

From above article:

"The UCI has sanctioned the lifetime ban yet, on a first offence, Armstrong could argue that he should have received a two-year ban — starting from the moment of confession. He could therefore challenge the UCI at the Court of Arbitration for Sport. Given all he knows about the UCI, he might get a decent settlement out of it."

To the bolded...I was/am under the impression that LA is out of time to appeal to CAS??? Please correct impression if false. Ta

He is indeed. He is out of options. Swiss Court or the European Court only left now and that would need to be on a point of law. Seeing he’s not so willing to give the entire story that will be hard.

WADA don’t deliberate on doping case they only govern and mandate the code. The UCI would have to send it to the Federation.

So I’m not sure anyone other than USADA could reduce the ban.

 

[Maxiton]

Dang.

"Given his persistent lying and bullying, his arrogance and apparent indifference to the feelings of others, and the pain he inflicted on so many people, it's difficult to feel much compassion for Armstrong -- to even care to understand why he behaves the way he does. But let's try."

How Aggressive Narcissism Explains Lance Armstrong | The Atlantic

 

[D-Queued]

Dang.

"Given his persistent lying and bullying, his arrogance and apparent indifference to the feelings of others, and the pain he inflicted on so many people, it's difficult to feel much compassion for Armstrong -- to even care to understand why he behaves the way he does. But let's try."

How Aggressive Narcissism Explains Lance Armstrong | The Atlantic

Even though the article goes into the realm of psychiatric assessment, and therefore introduces a sensitive topic, the author is handling the subject with kid gloves and is far too mild. Perhaps the author wants to avoid criticism of psychiatric labeling, but misses the point in so doing.

If this is aggressive narcissism, then it should overlap with a mild form of the next diagnosis on the continuum.

In Lance's case, hover, this manifestation of 'Aggressive Narcissism' skips over elements of Borderline Personality and straight to Sociopathy. It would be very difficult to see Lance as a Borderline Personality disorder case.

Continuum:

Narcissism --> Borderline Personality --> Sociopath / Psychopath

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

I just wish USADA would stop with the "most sophisticated doping program" hogwash (there is no way they can know that), and if they are going to claim that Pharmstrong's BP bloodwork had "a one in a million" chance of not being manipulated, then explain why he was allowed to even start the 2010 TdF. Their case is to me airtight, and editorializing their case with the above statements give Wonderboy and his ever shrinking legion the opportunity to obfuscate.

Can you disprove it as the most sophisticated doping program?

If you have the best doping doctor, blood being delivered in refrigerated panniers cases on motorbikes to the team hotel at the TdF, bribing UCI, having contact with the Lab Director in Lausanne, having the OOC tester have a coffee for 20 mins while Armstrong took a 'shower' and the ASO on board it surely it pretty damn sophisticated.

Most dopers just hoped to beat the test by using a substance under a nail to put into the urine, or a tube or other method.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He is indeed. He is out of options. Swiss Court or the European Court only left now and that would need to be on a point of law. Seeing he’s not so willing to give the entire story that will be hard.

WADA don’t deliberate on doping case they only govern and mandate the code. The UCI would have to send it to the Federation.

So I’m not sure anyone other than USADA could reduce the ban.

To the bolded, do you mean USADA? Obviously Hein and Pat still back the guy and Thom over at USAC will make stuff up to absolve him.

I would argue he's hanging onto the idea there's a point of law he's mining anyway. Will he find it? Who knows. I hope the money runs out first.

Imagine being inside the mind that has a world view where he make his own rules practically everywhere to suddenly have absolute rules blocking him from age group glory. Talk about a crisis. Still, he deserves it and far more legal trouble.

 

[thehog]

To the bolded, do you mean USADA? Obviously Hein and Pat still back the guy and Thom over at USAC will make stuff up to absolve him.

I would argue he's hanging onto the idea there's a point of law he's mining anyway. Will he find it? Who knows. I hope the money runs out first.

Imagine being inside the mind that has a world view where he make his own rules practically everywhere to suddenly have absolute rules blocking him from age group glory. Talk about a crisis. Still, he deserves it and far more legal trouble.

Yes by federation I mean USADA.

Technically he could contrive a story with the UCI that he told them everything. Then the UCI could go to CAS to reduce the ban to eight years. They'll argue that Federation is biased. That way USADA wouldn't present any evidence. But that would be publicly bad for the UCI. It would look terrible. But when have the UCI cared how they look?

CAS would want to see evinced of what Armstrong divulged. In camera hearing to protect the investigation etc. so the public would never see it.

Still it's a stretch. Armstrong has to work with USADA. He had no choice.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...and if they are going to claim that Pharmstrong's BP bloodwork had "a one in a million" chance of not being manipulated, then explain...

Explain to which audience? I'd love it if they'd explain it, or post the data so an Ashenden or equivalent can assess it, but that's a teeny tiny audience. They probably can't explain it to a "60 Minutes" audience.

And then, as an Ashenden interview pointed out, there's the scientific proof of doping and the legal proof of doping. Scientific proof is not legal proof.

why he was allowed to even start the 2010 TdF.

At that point, he was still attracting an audience. From the TdF as a business, it was the right thing to do. At that point, the ASO and UCI were both in on the myth building. The UCI's part was to exempt him from bio-passport profile history. There was probably more, but we may not know about it until any Statutes of Limitations kick in for everyone involved.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes by federation I mean USADA.

Technically he could contrive a story with the UCI that he told them everything. Then the UCI could go to CAS to reduce the ban to eight years. They'll argue that Federation is biased. That way USADA wouldn't present any evidence. But that would be publicly bad for the UCI. It would look terrible. But when have the UCI cared how they look?

CAS would want to see evinced of what Armstrong divulged. In camera hearing to protect the investigation etc. so the public would never see it.

Still it's a stretch. Armstrong has to work with USADA. He had no choice.

Thanks for this. I had pictured this, but I don't know the rules very well.

Good post Hog!

 

[Oldman]

Yes by federation I mean USADA.

Technically he could contrive a story with the UCI that he told them everything. Then the UCI could go to CAS to reduce the ban to eight years. They'll argue that Federation is biased. That way USADA wouldn't present any evidence. But that would be publicly bad for the UCI. It would look terrible. But when have the UCI cared how they look?

CAS would want to see evinced of what Armstrong divulged. In camera hearing to protect the investigation etc. so the public would never see it.

Still it's a stretch. Armstrong has to work with USADA. He had no choice.

Last night's 60 minutes interview with Travis Tygart was preceded by a love-fest interview featuring Obama and Hillary Clinton.
Tygart's interview pointedly asked why the GJ investigation was terminated and what the explanation could be. The pause in conversation and his response suggested that the media should pursue the matter as fraud, money-laundering, etc had occurred. That "millions of tax dollars" had effectively been defrauded and the media should follow up on that.
Lance's interview provides the perfect opportunity to reoopen that case without embarrassing Rubio, Feinstein, Clinton and all the others that attempted to intercede. Lance, under oath was what Tygart claimed as the solution.
UCI, WADA, pffft. Businessweek posted that story on Weisel we saw last week and it looks like the media hounds are on the trail.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...goes-on-closeout-after-doping-confession.html

Wilcockson is such a fool

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...goes-on-closeout-after-doping-confession.html

Wilcockson is such a fool

Sadly he doesn't realise just how big.

 

[coinneach]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...goes-on-closeout-after-doping-confession.html

Wilcockson is such a fool

Wasn't he the journalist who was travelling with Walsh at a Tour, and when Armstrong said "no Walsh", Wilcockson dumped Walsh with a shrug of the shoulders. How do some of these folk sleep at night?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Wasn't he the journalist who was travelling with Walsh at a Tour, and when Armstrong said "no Walsh", Wilcockson dumped Walsh with a shrug of the shoulders. How do some of these folk sleep at night?

I might be wrong, but the answer according to what I've read and understood is yes.

Wilcockson apparently sleeps just fine. When the writing was on the wall in 2012, but not a USADA done deal, he was STILL trying to sell the myth.

Pure hagiography:
http://www.pelotonmagazine.com/Wilcockson/content/21/1799/Wilcockson-The-Armstrong-Case

There's a quote in there attributed to Dede Demet..... If I'm not mistaken she appears quoted in USADA's documents as a pro-doping wife to Michael Barry.

I wonder what he got paid for selling that tripe. Maybe he got paid in tripe?

 

[Maxiton]

Even though the article goes into the realm of psychiatric assessment, and therefore introduces a sensitive topic, the author is handling the subject with kid gloves and is far too mild. Perhaps the author wants to avoid criticism of psychiatric labeling, but misses the point in so doing.

If this is aggressive narcissism, then it should overlap with a mild form of the next diagnosis on the continuum.

In Lance's case, hover, this manifestation of 'Aggressive Narcissism' skips over elements of Borderline Personality and straight to Sociopathy. It would be very difficult to see Lance as a Borderline Personality disorder case.

Continuum:

Narcissism --> Borderline Personality --> Sociopath / Psychopath

Dave.

I could be mistaken, but I believe "sociopathy" is no longer used to describe the pathologies it was formerly associated with.

 

[D-Queued]

I could be mistaken, but I believe "sociopathy" is no longer used to describe the pathologies it was formerly associated with.

I'll defer to a diagnosis of psychopath.

Dave.

 

[slowspoke]

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but it's ace. Lance does Radioheads "Creep"

http://mashable.com/2013/01/26/lance-armstrong-creep/

 

[Pazuzu]

Tygart's interview pointedly asked why the GJ investigation was terminated and what the explanation could be. The pause in conversation and his response suggested that the media should pursue the matter as fraud, money-laundering, etc had occurred. That "millions of tax dollars" had effectively been defrauded and the media should follow up on that.

Good to see Tygart pushing this angle. With any luck, someone like 60 Minutes will run with it.

 

[cineteq]

I haven't seen it posted.
Tygart's latest interview, 60 Minutes, Jan. 27, 2013.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50139841n

 

[reginagold]

I'll defer to a diagnosis of psychopath.

Dave.

Aggressive Narcissism Explains Lance Armstrong

This is really worth a read. Author has relevant Ph.d, etc.

Oh and today really is not a good day for the man looking at his reflection. Two negative articles in the Wall Street Journal and now this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...e-narcissism-explains-lance-armstrong/272568/

 

[Turner29]

I could be mistaken, but I believe "sociopathy" is no longer used to describe the pathologies it was formerly associated with.

Technically, the correct term is Antisocial Personality Disorder or Dissocial Personality Disorder...

 

[Turner29]

Aggressive Narcissism Explains Lance Armstrong

This is really worth a read. Author has relevant Ph.d, etc.

Oh and today really is not a good day for the man looking at his reflection. Two negative articles in the Wall Street Journal and now this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...e-narcissism-explains-lance-armstrong/272568/

Many professionals do not fully understand the nature of those with Antisocial Personality Disorder. One reason is that the benchmark Hare Psychopathy Checklist tends to put too much emphasis on convicted criminality and associated markers, the reason being that Hare based much of his ground-breaking work on convicted felons.

In addition, even trained Psychiatrists fall for the Psychopath's superficial charm.

There is no doubt from various recent interviews of those having first-hand contact with Armstrong that he is a Psychopath, and not simply an Agressive Narcissist.

 

[MarkvW]

Many professionals do not fully understand the nature of those with Antisocial Personality Disorder. One reason is that the benchmark Hare Psychopathy Checklist tends to put too much emphasis on convicted criminality and associated markers, the reason being that Hare based much of his ground-breaking work on convicted felons.

In addition, even trained Psychiatrists fall for the Psychopath's superficial charm.

There is no doubt from various recent interviews of those having first-hand contact with Armstrong that he is a Psychopath, and not simply an Agressive Narcissist.

Thanks for the diagnosis, doc.

 

[summerhill]

Mark Webber on Lance "I think what's staggering to everyone is the amount of people he was prepared to take out on the way up; people who were morally on the right side of the bridge. He wasn't worried about the ramifications and the position he may have put these people in; it was all about Planet Lance."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21240896