Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[the sceptic]

I guess she could come clean about co-conspiring, get JV to write the confession and then take a 6 month ban in the off season.

 

[thehog]

Shhhh, we are not supposed to talk about Ms Crow anymore.

Perfectly fine to call Kristen a drug mule or Stephanie a liar but Crow is off limits. So what if she said nothing while Armstrong stole $7,000,000 from SCA? So what if she was one of the few who were there for the transfusions? Who cares if she knew leMond, Betsy, Tyler, and Floyd were telling the truth but let them fry?

She sold records and that makes her off limits.

I'm glad you brought up the SCA trial.

If one is looking for a person who not only stood by and watched but aided and abetted Lance then one would look at Vaughters. Not only did he sign a statement denouncing his infamous IM with Frankie but he provided a oddly worded statement that Armstrong was drug free.

Crow wasn't subpoenaed for the SCA hearing. Vaughters wasn't either. He happily helped Lance get off with his ruse and stuck a knife into Frankie at the same time.

Boy did JV let them all fry! JV didn't even have the balls to sign Landis after his suspension.

The Los Angeles Times article also provided information on testimony given by Armstrong's former teammate, Swart, Andreu and his wife Betsy, and instant messaging conversation between Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters regarding blood-doping in the peloton. Vaughters signed a statement disavowing the comments and stating he had: "no personal knowledge that any team in the Tour de France, including Armstrong's Discovery team in 2005, engaged in any prohibited conduct whatsoever." Andreu signed a statement affirming the conversation took place as indicated on the instant messaging logs submitted to the court.

 

[Netserk]

Surely RR will have to flame JV now. Or not.

 

[Race Radio]

Surely RR will have to flame JV now. Or not.

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

 

[aphronesis]

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

You're a bit thick on this one and it seems a case where your reading skills and comprehension might be at issue. It's more the case that she feels they need to get on with living their lives without her. Many here can see that distinction; you seem unwilling to.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm glad you brought up the SCA trial.

If one is looking for a person who not only stood by and watched but aided and abetted Lance then one would look at Vaughters. Not only did he sign a statement denouncing his infamous IM with Frankie but he provided a oddly worded statement that Armstrong was drug free.

Crow wasn't subpoenaed for the SCA hearing. Vaughters wasn't either. He happily helped Lance get off with his ruse and stuck a knife into Frankie at the same time.

Boy did JV let them all fry! JV didn't even have the balls to sign Landis after his suspension.

You sure do change your mind a lot.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=376312&postcount=9

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

 

[86TDFWinner]

"I am traveling the world because I want to," Armstrong said. "I am ashamed and embarrassed by some of my previous actions. I am truly sorry. Some people have accepted that and some haven't."

This made me chuckle, he still thinks he's the victim, and people have misjudged him. He shows zero remorse & can't understand why people don't believe him.

 

[gooner]

You're a bit thick on this one and it seems a case where your reading skills and comprehension might be at issue. It's more the case that she feels they need to get on with living their lives without her. Many here can see that distinction; you seem unwilling to.

Did she care about them getting on with their lives when she was with Lance?

Give me a break, she doesn't care now either, she has her nose up over been called out for her ignorance of Lance's behaviour towards them.

 

[thehog]

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

Yes. Why feed JV to the meat grinder when you can feed a female with breast cancer to the meat grinder. Charming. Just charming.

Besides I've never seen a statement in public from JV on how bad he feels. I've seen many that perpetuated the myth. Not seen any from Crow the same as JV's. She said nothing, JV lied to the media with respect to USPS doping.

You can't deny JV protected by the laws of arbitration could have provided support to Frankie and maybe stopped Lance stealing 7 million. Vaughters knew what Armstrong was doing at that hearing. He could have stood up. But he didn't. Not only did he let it go on he assisted it with a watery statement that danced around the truth and protected Armstrong.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

Luckily not only is everything JV says true, but it paints him in a brilliant light, the hero for clean cycling, except when he wheels out the false modesty lines, "I'm no good at PR my PR people hate me", etc.

Goodness.

And now, thanks to his bravery and ability to get everyone to confess, we have a dope-free peloton since 2006. Such value. Much honesty and humility. So wowe.

 

[aphronesis]

Did she care about them getting on with their lives when she was with Lance?

Give me a break, she doesn't care now either, she has her nose up over been called out for her ignorance of Lance's behaviour towards them.

Don't know. I wasn't there chatting with her about it, were you? Delicate aren't we. Can't imagine how you survive all the moral bankruptcy in this world.

Did I say she cared? No. Many have pointed out that she's not obligated to. And as implied by others, in the scheme of things, I'd be more likely to fault her for her own professional actions. Give me a break.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes. Why feed JV to the meat grinder when you can feed a female with breast cancer to the meat grinder. Charming. Just charming.

Besides I've never seen a statement in public from JV on how bad he feels. I've seen many that perpetuated the myth. Not seen any from Crow the same as JV's. She said nothing, JV lied to the media with respect to USPS doping.

You can't deny JV protected by the laws of arbitration could have provided support to Frankie and maybe stopped Lance stealing 7 million. Vaughters knew what Armstrong was doing at that hearing. He could have stood up. But he didn't. Not only did he let it go on he assisted it with a watery statement that danced around the truth and protected Armstrong.

 

[thehog]

JV:

“I was never deposed at SCA. Ever. I signed an affidavit saying I had no first hand knowledge of doping in 2005.

I did not have first hand knowledge of doping at usps in 2005. How could I? I was retired and out of the loop.

Never deposed. Never subpoenaed. Had nothing to do with SCA.”

But didn't mind helping Lance cash in on $7m?

Contacted by Cyclingnews about his statements, Vaughters admitted that the IM conversation had taken place, but said that everything he had said was based on rumours rather than facts. "It was a gossipy conversation between two people," he said. "There's nothing in it that I could prove in court, just stuff I'd heard." The conversation had been printed out by Frankie Andreu's wife and submitted to the SCA arbitration, according to Vaughters.

Vaughters said he could not be sure if Floyd Landis really had photographs of the alleged doping practices. "I regret saying Floyd said anything to me in that IM because it was a friend of Floyd's," he continued. "In fact, everything I wrote in that IM was something I heard from somewhere else."

Man he sounds most contrite. Like he wanted to help everyone

But that Sheryl Crow. She's bad news. She's a co-conspirator.

 

[Race Radio]

But didn't mind helping Lance cash in on $7m?



Man he sounds most contrite. Like he wanted to help everyone

But that Sheryl Crow. She's bad news. She's a co-conspirator.

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement. We should remember he’s anti-doping not anti-Lance. His involvement at the SCA trial was very small. All that he was questioned on was if he saw doping during Armstrong’s 5th win. Which of course he didn’t. He also provided an avadavat that the IM with Frankie was more “social gossip” than fact which is also true. JV has spoken many times to ASO, the UCI and WADA about doping. He’s provided more than enough information to them to combat doping. Just because he doesn’t speak to the press about doesn’t mean he not doing something. How many times do we complain when someone spills there guts to the press. JV’s a good man. We can thank him for a lot. Take your mind back to 2006. The sport was truly FU. At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

 

[thehog]

David Zabriskie, another rider, said in an affidavit that in 2003 he was considering taking banned substances but worried about the long-term health consequences. One night, after getting his first EPO injection, Zabriskie talked with another rider, Michael Barry, and his wife Dede "about EPO and its wide use in the peloton." According to Zabriskie, the Barrys "proceeded to come up with justifications for the drug use." The Barrys could not immediately be reached for comment.

Co-conspirator?

Vaughters also said in the affidavit that the doping "took its toll" on the wives and girlfriends. "They were concerned about the health risks, and more than one wife told my former wife how much they hated the doping and wished that the guys did not have to do it."

All these wives and they did nothing? Co-conspirators?

Pop singer Sheryl Crow, who dated Armstrong during two Tours, also agreed to be interviewed, according to two people familiar with the matter. These people said Crow knew many details about doping on the team and was helpful in the investigation but didn't give an affidavit to USADA. An attorney for Crow declined to comment.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390443294904578050583935567250

Isn't she just awful? Helping the Federal investigation! I mean why would she do that? She should have just went straight to the press.

 

[gooner]

Don't know. I wasn't there chatting with her about it, were you? Delicate aren't we. Can't imagine how you survive all the moral bankruptcy in this world.

Did I say she cared? No. Many have pointed out that she's not obligated to. And as implied by others, in the scheme of things, I'd be more likely to fault her for her own professional actions. Give me a break.

Again to repeat, no one is saying she should be saving cycling and this isn't what Betsy is referring to.

Today Betsy is adamant that, far from being like the rest of America: ‘Sheryl was by his side when he was trying to destroy people and she said nothing. That’s unconscionable. I mean it just astounds me.

‘You should know people are telling the truth and you’re silent. It’s sick.

‘My God she was engaged to the guy. She, like Kristin, like so many other women did not speak up. If they went through what we went through, would they want somebody to speak up? She could have done something.’

Whatever way you dress it up, she's accountable here for this ignorance while innocent people got run over. She had Lance's ear to influence him.

 

[gooner]

Co-conspirator?



All these wives and they did nothing? Co-conspirators?



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390443294904578050583935567250

Isn't she just awful? Helping the Federal investigation! I mean why would she do that? She should have just went straight to the press.

Did any of those riders run over innocent people in the same manner that Lance did while their wives remained silent?

That's where the criticism is coming from but some are missing the point.

 

[Race Radio]

Co-conspirator?



All these wives and they did nothing? Co-conspirators?



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390443294904578050583935567250

Isn't she just awful? Helping the Federal investigation! I mean why would she do that? She should have just went straight to the press.

Wait, now you are saying that Dede watched lance transfuse and should have said something?

Hard to keep up with the flip flopping.....you called Kristen a drug mule but Crow is a saint. JV is saving and destroying cycling.

 

[thehog]

Did any of those riders run over innocent people in the same manner that Lance did while their wives remained silent?

That's where the criticism is coming from but some are missing the point.

I don't think anyone is missing the point.

You're trying to create a triage of events that makes Crow evil. What next? Eva Braun was responsible for WW2? Hilary responsible for deregulating the banking system? Nancy Reagan responsible for the Iran-Contra affair?

Until you can provide a link of the things Crow said or did that is so reprehensible I'll hold firm on my position.

The story is Armstrong and there's plenty of players who stood by who could actually have influence.

Vaughters didn't have to sign that affidavit and he knew exactly what he was doing. It was a play on words to make Lance sound clean. He also denied the IM that he had with Frankie. He could have said nothing but he did and it was to assist Armstrong.

Crow's only crime was dating Armstrong.

 

[thehog]

Whatever way you dress it up, she's accountable here for this ignorance while innocent people got run over. She had Lance's ear to influence him.

But you have no idea what Crow had said to Armstrong behind close doors or what influence she applied.

This is just mindless speculation.

 

[MarkvW]

Looks like the discussion is about to expand to all the wives of all the USPS co-conspirators. My won't that be fascinating!

The hyper-moralistic tone of this discussion reminds me of someone, but darn . . . I just can't place it.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Looks like the discussion is about to expand to all the wives of all the USPS co-conspirators. My won't that be fascinating!

The hyper-moralistic tone of this discussion reminds me of someone, but darn . . . I just can't place it.

don't worry Mark,
I guess this entertaining parrying will fizzle out in 2 days time
when there is some racing to comment about

 

[Zam_Olyas]

She is a celebrity of course she should be blamed and be given severe grief .....

 

[Merckx index]

I find it so ironic that all Crow’s supporters are expressing a deeply-held opinion over what is right and what is wrong (again and again and again), while arguing that Crow had no responsibility to do the same. I mean, the more Hoggie posts, the more he drives home the point that you should not be silent about anything you think matters. Sort of like screwing to show your support for virginity.

Hoggie, I respect your passion over this issue--seriously, I do. I just don't understand why you give Crow a pass for not showing one iota of such passion over an issue with far greater consequences than some internet forum argument. And don't point out that you can argue anonymously. I'm sure Crow could have done the same much sooner than she actually did.

Q.: What is the distance in time and space between committing an ethically irresponsible act and being held accountable for it?
A.: A very long way, as the Crow flies.

 

[MarkvW]

I find it so ironic that all Crow’s supporters are expressing a deeply-held opinion over what is right and what is wrong (again and again and again), while arguing that Crow had no responsibility to do the same. I mean, the more Hoggie posts, the more he drives home the point that you should not be silent about anything you think matters. Sort of like screwing to show your support for virginity.

Hoggie, I respect your passion over this issue--seriously, I do. I just don't understand why you give Crow a pass for not showing one iota of such passion over an issue with far greater consequences than some internet forum argument. And don't point out that you can argue anonymously. I'm sure Crow could have done the same much sooner than she actually did.

Q.: What is the distance in time and space between committing an ethically irresponsible act and being held accountable for it?
A.: A very long way, as the Crow flies.

Everybody who supports professional cycling, while knowing that it is a morally bankrupt cesspool, is committing an ethically irresponsible act.

If we're going holier than thou, we might as well go all the way!!!