Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Briant_Gumble]

But you have no idea what Crow had said to Armstrong behind close doors or what influence she applied.

This is just mindless speculation.

She wanted a guy like Lance to father her kids, of course she's morally bankrupt.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

You're a bit thick on this one and it seems a case where your reading skills and comprehension might be at issue. It's more the case that she feels they need to get on with living their lives without her. Many here can see that distinction; you seem unwilling to.

Wow, getting a bit touchy are we?

To me this is like a more extreme example of saying, do you think Hitler's wife was a nice lass herself? Obviously not.

Almost no other cyclists are willing to pull some low blows in the way Lance would.

 

[MarkvW]

Wow, getting a bit touchy are we?

To me this is like a more extreme example of saying, do you think Hitler's wife was a nice lass herself? Obviously not.

Almost no other cyclists are willing to pull some low blows in the way Lance would.

Almost no other cyclists could pull the low blows that Lance did, because pro cyclists as a group are relatively powerless.

Team managers, on the other hand, are another story. There are more than a few willing to pull the low blows.

 

[Digger]

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

You can dress it up any which way you like, JV only did anything when the Feds came knocking - and the only reason the feds came was because of Floyd - so without Floyd, jv would still be saying nothing.
I do find it amusing to see JV and his Garmin crew getting credit - for what? For not telling lies to the Feds...real heroes. For getting, initially, no month bands from USADA, and even then getting a six month ban in the winter, having negotiated a deal for after the Tour.



Repeatedly, and something JV said he did not do, JV not alone kept silent about lance, but actually defended him...he also used semantics to back away from responsibility in the SCA TRIAL.

So people are making him out to have done the right thing but he had no choice. He let people fry for long enough and let them put in the hard yards...and by the way, we both know Statute of Limitations was a factor here so let's not pretend otherwise.

Note: I especially liked the way JV referred to lance as an all American hero, how he was an example to others...and in another interview he said the 2005 retests weren't valid and were pointless...same interview in 2005 he said over 80% of the peloton is clean...a year before Puerto.

 

[BroDeal]

Betsy seems to have a penchant for creating enemies. No good can come to her from attacking Crow in the media. It is not like USADA is going to snap the cuffs on Crow and haul her away.

It is looking more and more like martyr complex.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I find it so ironic that all Crow’s supporters are expressing a deeply-held opinion over what is right and what is wrong (again and again and again), while arguing that Crow had no responsibility to do the same. I mean, the more Hoggie posts, the more he drives home the point that you should not be silent about anything you think matters. Sort of like screwing to show your support for virginity.

Hoggie, I respect your passion over this issue--seriously, I do. I just don't understand why you give Crow a pass for not showing one iota of such passion over an issue with far greater consequences than some internet forum argument. And don't point out that you can argue anonymously. I'm sure Crow could have done the same much sooner than she actually did.

Q.: What is the distance in time and space between committing an ethically irresponsible act and being held accountable for it?
A.: A very long way, as the Crow flies.

Hog is only posting about this, in this manner because RR has the opposite opinion. It has nothing to do with any genuine care he has for Crow. I'm surprised you guys haven't worked this out by now.

Everybody who supports professional cycling, while knowing that it is a morally bankrupt cesspool, is committing an ethically irresponsible act.

If we're going holier than thou, we might as well go all the way!!!

It's "Mark with the superior moral position" again...

You're so above all of this that you spend time posting on a cycling forum about professional cycling that is wholly and completely corrupt why? We got your point a long time ago, so you can leave now if you want. We'll stay here in our muddled set of morals and wish like he11 that we were as strident and steadfast as are you in your morals...

Your contributions have the substance and relevance as phlegm.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

She wanted a guy like Lance to father her kids, of course she's morally bankrupt.

One of the truest things I have ever heard about any relationship, friend or lover is that water seeks its own level.

 

[aphronesis]

Wow, getting a bit touchy are we?

To me this is like a more extreme example of saying, do you think Hitler's wife was a nice lass herself? Obviously not.

Almost no other cyclists are willing to pull some low blows in the way Lance would.

Not touchy in the least. However, if I'm at all reactive to this issue it's for the way in which several you who are more attached to this matter than I am, seem incapable of reading what's being discussed. Not the well scripted narrative of characters, actions and obligations you have committed to rote, but alternate interpretations. Per gooner above, it's not about Crow saving cycling, as to my own post it's not about what Lance would or did: it's about Crow's stake, responsibility to, knowledge of and ethical obligation specifically to the situation that Betsy was alluding to. And then there's still the question as to what Crow knew, connected and the degrees of her caring and to what point acting out on her part would have changed anything.

In a world history full of human a$$holes and vicious acts, I always love and respect the posters who can't reach further than Hitler when their own powers of description fail them in trying to assess the impact of Armstrong. Let's at least update it hey, how about "Do you think Obama's wife is nice"?

@Merckx, I think you're off the mark on this one. You and many others arguing against Crow expect that she would have had the same narrative running as you did--and have, for many years now--when that's patently not the case. I think the only thing that hog and a few others--that I am at least--are saying is that it's becoming more than a little obsessive when people start expecting Crow (who was entrenched in her own professional world of power and politics) should have started tilting the same windmills that they like to tell themselves they would have given the chance.

 

[Netserk]

I "flamed" him many times here, on twitter, and in person for not talking. At the time I did not understand his strategy, thought he was letting people fry.

Ultimately it was the correct one as, unlike a rich and famous singer, JV would have been fed to the meat grinder if he went it alone. Instead he lined up over a dozen people to talk. Why do you think lance and Johan hate him so much?

He has talked many times about how he still feels bad about not standing up for Bassons, Frankie, Betsy. Given her recent statements Crow does not feel bad, she feels they are just crazy people who need to get a life

So he does not feel bad about not standing up for Landis?

 

[Race Radio]

Hog is only posting about this, in this manner because RR has the opposite opinion. It has nothing to do with any genuine care he has for Crow. I'm surprised you guys haven't worked this out by now.

Yup. Pretty obvious

 

[Race Radio]

Betsy seems to have a penchant for creating enemies. No good can come to her from attacking Crow in the media. It is not like USADA is going to snap the cuffs on Crow and haul her away.

It is looking more and more like martyr complex.

Who is saying Crow should be cuffed and hauled away?

Lots of dramatic hyperbole here. Betsy is saying she wished Crow had spoken up, nobody is saying she should be burned at the stake

 

[thehog]

I find it so ironic that all Crow’s supporters are expressing a deeply-held opinion over what is right and what is wrong (again and again and again), while arguing that Crow had no responsibility to do the same. I mean, the more Hoggie posts, the more he drives home the point that you should not be silent about anything you think matters. Sort of like screwing to show your support for virginity.

Hoggie, I respect your passion over this issue--seriously, I do. I just don't understand why you give Crow a pass for not showing one iota of such passion over an issue with far greater consequences than some internet forum argument. And don't point out that you can argue anonymously. I'm sure Crow could have done the same much sooner than she actually did.

Q.: What is the distance in time and space between committing an ethically irresponsible act and being held accountable for it?

A.: A very long way, as the Crow flies.

But theres not "Crow supporters" and "non supporters". The issue doesn't need to be split like that.

I'm not a Crow supporter and own none of her music but respect her position in all of this.

And when someone posts a vitriolic statement like, "she stood by whilst Lance stole 7 million dollars", is not a sensible or rational discussion on the matter. Its just stirring the pot.

Nevertheless I keep coming back to the same question; what did you want her to do? Go to the UCI, WADA, the police, the UN? and how do we know she didn't?

No one can answer that question. I've asked it several times.

Ive also asked for links to what Crow said that was so reprehensible that she deserves a kicking. There are none.

RR rightly points out that JV didn't come forward earlier on his own because he would have been put through the "meat grinder" by the Lance machine. That I don't doubt but to then expect Crow to do it on his behalf is insanity.

Several wives and girlfriends knew of the doping and of the example I gave one actually encouraged Zabriske to dope. I think RR was saying that because it wasn't a transfusion its not as bad as EPO!? and not a co-conspritor. Huh?

The debate started from Betsey via the media telling Crow to confess what she saw. Crow spoke to the Feds and not to the media. And that's a problem because?

My own feeling is that Crow signed a NDA when the relationship failed with Armstrong. That would be fairly routine for the both of them. Hence why she can only talk to the Feds and no one else. I have no evidence of this apart from its standard in celebrity relationship that dissolve.

And circling back to JV. I bring him into the argument because he wasn't at active rider. He could have done something at the SCA hearing. He could have come forward to SCA and told them he could assist with the information that he was aware of. But he didn't and instead of saying nothing he wrote a statement denouncing the IM and supporting Armstrong. Now if Vaughters was honest & the IM was "gossip" then he's playing Frankie & Floyd by writing the content that he did.

What a mess.

So with all that in mind how did Crow become the white widow? doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Race Radio]

But theres not "Crow supporters" and "non supporters". The issue doesn't need to be split like that.

I'm not a Crow supporter and own none of her music but respect her position in all of this.

And when someone posts a vitriolic statement like, "she stood by whilst Lance stole 7 million dollars", is not a sensible or rational discussion on the matter. Its just stirring the pot.

Nevertheless I keep coming back to the same question; what did you want her to do? Go to the UCI, WADA, the police, the UN? and how do we know she didn't?

No one can answer that question. I've asked it several times.

Ive also asked for links to what Crow said that was so reprehensible that she deserves a kicking. There are none.

RR rightly points out that JV didn't come forward earlier on his own because he would have been put through the "meat grinder" by the Lance machine. That I don't doubt but to then expect Crow to do it on his behalf is insanity.

Several wives and girlfriends knew of the doping and of the example I gave one actually encouraged Zabriske to dope. I think RR was saying that because it wasn't a transfusion its not as bad as EPO!? and not a co-conspritor. Huh?

The debate started from Betsey via the media telling Crow to confess what she saw. Crow spoke to the Feds and not to the media. And that's a problem because?

My own feeling is that Crow signed a NDA when the relationship failed with Armstrong. That would be fairly routine for the both of them. Hence why she can only talk to the Feds and no one else. I have no evidence of this apart from its standard in celebrity relationship that dissolve.

And circling back to JV. I bring him into the argument because he wasn't at active rider. He could have done something at the SCA hearing. He could have come forward to SCA and told them he could assist with the information that he was aware of. But he didn't and instead of saying nothing he wrote a statement denouncing the IM and supporting Armstrong. Now if Vaughters was honest & the IM was "gossip" then he's playing Frankie & Floyd by writing the content that he did.

What a mess.

So with all that in mind how did Crow become the white window? doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Comical

Your question has been answered

You had no problem going after the other wives, calling Kristen a drug mule.

You are too obvious dude, gotta tone it down.

 

[thehog]

Your question has been answered

.

Alas it hasn't. You continue to dance around the issue and I have no idea what you expect of her in this mess.

You expected Crow to do the dirty work that countless others would not? JV included.

I think Crow puts it very well. Its not her story. Its Armstrong's.

“So talking about Lance,” she laughs drily, “it was a nanosecond in the grand scheme. But it was a nanosecond that introduced me to some things about myself that I needed to look at. But his story is succinctly,” she concludes with steely finality, “his story.”

 

[BroDeal]

Who is saying Crow should be cuffed and hauled away?

Lots of dramatic hyperbole here. Betsy is saying she wished Crow had spoken up, nobody is saying she should be burned at the stake

What does she expect to happen? She is attacking the celebrity ex-girlfriend of Armstrong. There is no profit in this. There will never be closure. It just cements her reputation as obsessed with all things Armstrong. It gives credence to what Armstrong has said about her.

 

[Race Radio]

Alas it hasn't. You continue to dance around the issue and I have no idea what you expect of her in this mess.

You expected Crow to do the dirty work that countless others would not? JV included.

I think Crow puts it very well. Its not her story. Its Armstrong's.

Do you actually read what anyone else writes here or are you just trying to provoke a response?

It is pretty simple.

A good start would be to not parrot the witch hunt/bitter/jealous nonsense. We are talking about multiple transfusions, years of harassment, doping in plain sight. She knew truth but she pushed the myth as people were destroyed

Despite your intentional hyperbole nobody is calling for her to go on a campaign, just like nobody is calling for her to be cuffed and stuffed. She had no problem being part of the story when it benefited her but suddenly had amnesia when it was toxic

Feel free to continue to clog the toilet

 

[Benotti69]

I think Crow puts it very well. Its not her story. Its Armstrong's.

“So talking about Lance,” she laughs drily, “it was a nanosecond in the grand scheme. But it was a nanosecond that introduced me to some things about myself that I needed to look at. But his story is succinctly,” she concludes with steely finality, “his story.”

Crow aint foolling anyone with half a brain. She spent 3 years in a extremely close relationship with Armstrong. That she dismisses 3 years as a nanosecond is wishful thinking on here part. Wonder did PED up at the same time which led to her getting cancer?

For 3 years she was a major part of the story.

 

[Freddythefrog]

I'm trying to keep the contents of my stomach, in my stomach.

Loving the Barry's still trying to forge the homespun decent journeyman nucelar family thing

Dede Barry ‏@DeirdreBarry Nov 4

Great virtual learning tool for kids when it's not possible to be there physically. http://lnkd.in/bmf_ahj
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Rather goes against the post below "we're rich and we got it by cheating liying and stealing and look we can still con some of the people some of the time, - we got some dumbass volunteers to clean our boots at the hotel" cr*p.

Dede Barry ‏@DeirdreBarry Oct 29

Thanks to the Hincapies, BMC, Hotel Domestique & the volunteers for a fantastic weekend. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.260090724139598.1073741826.105936006221738&type=1 …

She had the good sense to stop tweeting her rubbish for about 6 months after she and Sky rider Michael were outed. Obviously she thinks that people are too dumb to remember.

 

[thehog]

Despite your intentional hyperbole nobody is calling for her to go on a campaign, just like nobody is calling for her to be cuffed and stuffed. She had no problem being part of the story when it benefited her but suddenly had amnesia when it was toxic

Feel free to continue to clog the toilet

She was part of the story because she was in love and was dating "the story".

Surely you're not deriding a person because they met the wrong person and fell in love? Hasn't everyone been in that position at some point in their lives.

And she's not had amnesia. She spoke to the Feds.

 

[ebandit]

mess

What a mess.

hoggy why continue to mess up this thread?

of course you like the attention but it's not about you and who you don't like

Mark L

 

[uspostal]

hoggy why continue to mess up this thread?

of course you like the attention but it's not about you and who you don't like

Mark L

Don't think Hog is messing up the thread, he just wants to know why Crow should stick her neck out for people not willing to do it for their selves. Even if Crow seen it all she has no obligation to speak-up for people not willing to say anything to help themselves. If the wrath of LA was that feared by all, why should Crow take a chance of facing the same wrath with her music career, for people knowing whats happening but saying nothing. Maybe its just me but I have a hard time wondering why people feel Crow owed anything to others.

 

[ebandit]

50/50

i am undecided 50/50

it's not crows concern / an honest person would speak up about wrong doing

not as though it matters much now after the reasoned decision

but sometimes there is much more going on..............forum politics

Mark L

 

[thehog]

Don't think Hog is messing up the thread, he just wants to know why Crow should stick her neck out for people not willing to do it for their selves. Even if Crow seen it all she has no obligation to speak-up for people not willing to say anything to help themselves. If the wrath of LA was that feared by all, why should Crow take a chance of facing the same wrath with her music career, for people knowing whats happening but saying nothing. Maybe its just me but I have a hard time wondering why people feel Crow owed anything to others.

Correct. She had her own career in her own right before she meet Armstrong.

She fell in love and was introduced to her dirty cesspit of pro mafia cycling.

Lance then dumped her from a great height, she contracted cancer, recovers and moved on back to her own career and passion. When called upon to be interviewed by the Feds she did.

Now contrast that with say Wiggins. If one is looking for one who rode the wave of oppunisim he's your go to guy. One who not only defend the omertà but helped put those down who did put themselves on the line.

When Floyd came out with his revelations I don't remember anyone backing him up. CVV, Vaughters etc. said very little. Those guys collectively knew everything.

So why Sheryl Crow should be responsible and the lone spokesperson for USPS doping since 1996 is beyond me.

Kick her about for that dreadful Oprah special when she sung songs to Lance but to do the job of the UCI, no, that's not her role in this mess.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Correct. She had her own career in her own right before she meet Armstrong.

She fell in love and was introduced to her dirty cesspit of pro mafia cycling.

Lance then dumped her from a great height, she contracted cancer, recovers and moved on back to her own career and passion. When called upon to be interviewed by the Feds she did.

Now contrast that with say Wiggins. If one is looking for one who rode the wave of oppunisim he's your go to guy. One who not only defend the omertà but helped put those down who did put themselves on the line.

When Floyd came out with his revelations I don't remember anyone backing him up. CVV, Vaughters etc. said very little. Those guys collectively knew everything.

So why Sheryl Crow should be responsible and the lone spokesperson for USPS doping since 1996 is beyond me.

Kick her about for that dreadful Oprah special when she sung songs to Lance but to do the job of the UCI, no, that's not her role in this mess.

Somebody doesn't know anything about what life backstage is like...

Yea, the cesspit of pro cycling was a couple of steps up in the world from rock and roll...or whatever it is you call that fetid pile of notes she calls music. Last interview I saw with her, she professed pride in letting the interviewer know she got drunk every day. I think she probably introduced Lance to some things he'd never seen...some of which probably involved the later need for necessary injections.

 

[Race Radio]

So why Sheryl Crow should be responsible and the lone spokesperson for USPS doping since 1996 is beyond me.

Trolltastic!