• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

Page 186 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Calling Ms. Crow a "co-conspirator" is a probably a defamatory lie. Mere knowledge of bad behavior is not enough to make a person a conspirator.

The worst I've heard of Ms. Crow is that she knew of bad things Lance was doing and that she kept quiet.
 
May 27, 2012
6,458
0
0
Visit site
MarkvW said:
Calling Ms. Crow a "co-conspirator" is a probably a defamatory lie. Mere knowledge of bad behavior is not enough to make a person a conspirator.

The worst I've heard of Ms. Crow is that she knew of bad things Lance was doing and that she kept quiet.

Why are you posting? The topic of professional cycling is just sooooooooo beneath you...:rolleyes:
 
Aug 18, 2012
1,171
0
0
Visit site
thehog said:
Correct. She had her own career in her own right before she meet Armstrong.

She fell in love and was introduced to her dirty cesspit of pro mafia cycling.

Seriously dude? This sounds like trolling to suggest that her life was all sunshine and roses before meeting Lance. Have you had some kind of secret crush on Sheryl?

I don't think her music and songwriting is neccessarily that bad but it would be remarkably naive to imagine that aspiring artists giving a powerful music mogul a "hand" or a nudge in the right direction to listen to some of their music and get them signed to a contract doesn't often go on behind the scenes.
 
Briant_Gumble said:
Seriously dude? This sounds like trolling to suggest that her life was all sunshine and roses before meeting Lance. Have you had some kind of secret crush on Sheryl?

I don't think her music and songwriting is neccessarily that bad but it would be remarkably naive to imagine that aspiring artists giving a powerful music mogul a "hand" or a nudge in the right direction to listen to some of their music and get them signed to a contract doesn't often go on behind the scenes.

I'm not suggesting that she's not seen it all before. In fact she has one song talking about a skunk high. But no one here wants to Crow to clean out the music industry of drugs. They want her to do to job of the UCI and what several cyclists and team owners wouldn't do.

It's pure deflection apportioning blame on Crow. Making statements that she was a "co-conspirator" and stood by whilst Lance stole money is fairly debase name calling.

And I've still not heard anyone tell me what they wanted Crow to do. Nothing. If she is a co-conspirator and stood by when all these crimes occurred what should she have done?

Until someone can answer that question it's just opportunistic put downs. Blame the celebrity because those in the sport didn't do their jobs.

That's cycling. The sport has never manned up and taken responsibly of its ills.
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
dearwiggo.blogspot.com.au
Race Radio said:
[They] had no problem being part of the story when it benefited [them] but suddenly had amnesia when it was toxic

What you wrote there sounds like it could have been applied to every single person ever employed by USPS, except rather than amnesia, they developed mighty anti-doping crusading consciences and helped clear the world of the evil that is one man's doping, HURRAH!!
 
Race Radio said:
Like this?

No not that. You still need to demonstrate and back up your statements with some evidence.

You're still deflecting the issue at hand.

What did you want Crow to do? This has been going on about 30 posts now and you still can't tell me what you wanted her to do.

What is odd is when Wiggins makes a glowing and supportive comment about Armstrong your take is:

Race Radio said:
I think, as usual, Wiggans is joking around.

And you have blind faith in Vaughters who in 2005 said the following:

"But this year [2005!] was probably the cleanest Tour since the early '90s. It (doping) has decreased enormously since the '95-'96 period." Now, Vaughters estimated about "80-85 percent" of the field is clean.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

and

“As a whole the race is clean,” said Vaughters, who rode with Armstrong on the U.S. Postal Team in 1998 and 1999 before retiring in 2003. “I can’t speak to every single athlete, but the probability of the Tour being won by a clean rider is much higher than it being won by a doped rider.”

http://news.discovery.com/adventure/extreme-sports/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.htm

So Wiggins and Vaughters supportive on doping and the omertà get a pass in your eyes but the female celebrity gets labelled a "co-conspirator"?

Charming.

I think you need to be honest here. You don't have an answer to what she should have done. You just want to deflect from those who really should have taken some responsibility for the doping issue.
 
uspostal said:
Don't think Hog is messing up the thread, he just wants to know why Crow should stick her neck out for people not willing to do it for their selves. Even if Crow seen it all she has no obligation to speak-up for people not willing to say anything to help themselves. If the wrath of LA was that feared by all, why should Crow take a chance of facing the same wrath with her music career, for people knowing whats happening but saying nothing. Maybe its just me but I have a hard time wondering why people feel Crow owed anything to others.

It is because it is easier to hate on a forty-year-old musician that has no connection with cycling than it is to criticize friends and allies who could have thrown light on Armstrong long before he ever met Crow.

There were a lot of American associated with US Postal that knew. Some of the, are now being lionized for making the decision not to dope, but they could have told their stories before Armstrong was cornered. Most, like JV, were perfectly happy to see Armstrong ride off into the sunset. I don't see Betsy publicly calling these guys out by name.
 
May 27, 2012
6,458
0
0
Visit site
BroDeal said:
It is because it is easier to hate on a forty-year-old musician that has no connection with cycling than it is to criticize friends and allies who could have thrown light on Armstrong long before he ever met Crow.

There were a lot of American associated with US Postal that knew. Some of the, are now being lionized for making the decision not to dope, but they could have told their stories before Armstrong was cornered. Most, like JV, were perfectly happy to see Armstrong ride off into the sunset. I don't see Betsy publicly calling these guys out by name.

I'd suggest that it's human nature to be less critical of those people who are currently supporting you (even if they didn't in the past), and be more critical of those who have harmed or were associated with the person who harmed, neither of whom are showing contrition.

Maybe Betsy would be better off letting go, but nobody here took the sh!t she did, so it's real easy to say from the cheap seats.
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
dearwiggo.blogspot.com.au
ChewbaccaD said:
I'd suggest that it's human nature to be less critical of those people who are currently supporting you (even if they didn't in the past), and be more critical of those who have harmed or were associated with the person who harmed, neither of whom are showing contrition.

Which is probably what Crow thinks too, somewhat ironically.
 
It isn’t just that Crow didn’t do anything back then that bothers me. Maybe—I don’t believe it, but let’s suppose—that her situation was difficult in a way none of us knows, and she really couldn’t do anything. Or that she tried, and was rebuffed. That still doesn’t explain why even now, when asked about it, she tosses it off as something completely unimportant (nanosecond), certainly something that weighed far less in her view of Armstrong than their personality differences.

She could have said, “I understand where Betsy is coming from, and I appreciate what she must have gone through. But honestly, for reasons I can’t go into, there was nothing I could have done then. It was just a bad situation.” But no, Betsy doesn’t have a clue, she has no life, someone has to be really hopeless to even care about what Armstrong did. This is the line of someone who is either an ethical cretin, or just doesn’t get it. Do any of the riders who knew about Armstrong and didn’t speak up at the time talk like this now? Of course not.

This, by the way, Hog, is why we can be quite sure that Crow didn’t try to tell someone what she knew. It’s also the answer to your question—what was she supposed to do? That question implies a conflict which it’s crystal clear Crow never felt. In that interview, she never says, I couldn’t have done anything, but I wish in retrospect that I could have. If she had ever considered telling what she knew, or wondered if there were anything she could have done, she would now have considerable empathy for Betsy. She might have even reached out to her behind the scenes.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,855
1
0
Visit site
thehog said:
No not that. You still need to demonstrate and back up your statements with some evidence.

You're still deflecting the issue at hand.

What did you want Crow to do? This has been going on about 30 posts now and you still can't tell me what you wanted her to do.

What is odd is when Wiggins makes a glowing and supportive comment about Armstrong your take is:



And you have blind faith in Vaughters who in 2005 said the following:



http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999

and



http://news.discovery.com/adventure/extreme-sports/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.htm

So Wiggins and Vaughters supportive on doping and the omertà get a pass in your eyes but the female celebrity gets labelled a "co-conspirator"?

Charming.

I think you need to be honest here. You don't have an answer to what she should have done. You just want to deflect from those who really should have taken some responsibility for the doping issue.

Reading is not your thing is it?

All of what you spew in this post has been addressed multiple times. You are welcome to pretend it has not if you are looking for attention but it just makes you look silly
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,855
1
0
Visit site
Merckx index said:
It isn’t just that Crow didn’t do anything back then that bothers me. Maybe—I don’t believe it, but let’s suppose—that her situation was difficult in a way none of us knows, and she really couldn’t do anything. Or that she tried, and was rebuffed. That still doesn’t explain why even now, when asked about it, she tosses it off as something completely unimportant (nanosecond), certainly something that weighed far less in her view of Armstrong than their personality differences.

She could have said, “I understand where Betsy is coming from, and I appreciate what she must have gone through. But honestly, for reasons I can’t go into, there was nothing I could have done then. It was just a bad situation.” But no, Betsy doesn’t have a clue, she has no life, someone has to be really hopeless to even care about what Armstrong did. This is the line of someone who is either an ethical cretin, or just doesn’t get it. Do any of the riders who knew about Armstrong and didn’t speak up at the time talk like this now? Of course not.

This, by the way, Hog, is why we can be quite sure that Crow didn’t try to tell someone what she knew. It’s also the answer to your question—what was she supposed to do? That question implies a conflict which it’s crystal clear Crow never felt. In that interview, she never says, I couldn’t have done anything, but I wish in retrospect that I could have. If she had ever considered telling what she knew, or wondered if there were anything she could have done, she would now have considerable empathy for Betsy. She might have even reached out to her behind the scenes.

Well put.

It is also important to note that Betsy's comments are a year old.
 
thehog said:
Correct. She had her own career in her own right before she meet Armstrong.

She fell in love and was introduced to her dirty cesspit of pro mafia cycling.

Lance then dumped her from a great height, she contracted cancer, recovers and moved on back to her own career and passion. When called upon to be interviewed by the Feds she did.

Now contrast that with say Wiggins. If one is looking for one who rode the wave of oppunisim he's your go to guy. One who not only defend the omertà but helped put those down who did put themselves on the line.

When Floyd came out with his revelations I don't remember anyone backing him up. CVV, Vaughters etc. said very little. Those guys collectively knew everything.

So why Sheryl Crow should be responsible and the lone spokesperson for USPS doping since 1996 is beyond me.

Kick her about for that dreadful Oprah special when she sung songs to Lance but to do the job of the UCI, no, that's not her role in this mess.

This is exactly why this thread is so fecked up at this point.

No one ever said "she should be the lone spokesperson."
The comment that Betsy made and I agree with is that anyone with half an ethic would have spoken up and stood up about the mayhem and destruction that Lance caused so many.

Others that slimed their way through without losing too much are also at fault.
Is it surprising that it's 'every man for themselves' when the shiit hit the fan?

No excuses for Crow…celebrity, cancer, whatever…
she's a lame excuse for a backbone..

Can the trolling just halt so we can get on with more important Lance-bashing??
 
Aug 4, 2010
198
0
0
Visit site
mewmewmew13 said:
This is exactly why this thread is so fecked up at this point.

No one ever said "she should be the lone spokesperson."
The comment that Betsy made and I agree with is that anyone with half an ethic would have spoken up and stood up about the mayhem and destruction that Lance caused so many.

Others that slimed their way through without losing too much are also at fault.
Is it surprising that it's 'every man for themselves' when the shiit hit the fan?

No excuses for Crow…celebrity, cancer, whatever…
she's a lame excuse for a backbone..

Can the trolling just halt so we can get on with more important Lance-bashing??

A lame excuse for a backbone ???? Really, 7 years worth of team guys some of who did PED's with LA + staff ALL of whom knew what was going on yet people want Crow to say something. Has Betsy called out the other 7 yrs worth of staff who knew? Picking out Crow who is a big name is really wrong, try the team members 1st. So according to Betsy all the teammates of LA have no ethics and said nothing while he was burning down the forest. Try to find someone else to blame, Crow realistically had no dog in the fight.
 
Dec 7, 2010
5,507
0
0
Visit site
thehog said:
When Mew tells me to stop. I stop. So last post on the matter.

sittingbison said:
And on that note gentle(wo)men, lets finish this particular line of discussion shall we?

sittingbison said:
The Sheryl Crowe topic is now over

images_zps6020d5ad.jpeg
 
mewmewmew13 said:
This is exactly why this thread is so fecked up at this point.

No one ever said "she should be the lone spokesperson."
The comment that Betsy made and I agree with is that anyone with half an ethic would have spoken up and stood up about the mayhem and destruction that Lance caused so many.

Others that slimed their way through without losing too much are also at fault.
Is it surprising that it's 'every man for themselves' when the shiit hit the fan?
No excuses for Crow…celebrity, cancer, whatever…
she's a lame excuse for a backbone..

Can the trolling just halt so we can get on with more important Lance-bashing??

......................deleted post
 
I'll bite (and Bison, I'm not bearing down on the cat media fight), and this obtains to 99% percent of the posters to this thread as a whole from day one, Merckx, before you call someone an ethical cretin, read what the person said and don't interpret it to suit your own--clearly sheltered and compartmentalized--life.

As someone who claims to be a scientist (you that is), I'm disappointed--but not surprised--at such a feeble and affectively charged and challenged paraphrase of what was said

And so that, Bison, this post stays back on topic: sociopaths come from, and are defined by, the society that breeds them. I'll bet big money and easy odds that, again, most of the posters on this thread--especially US-- do and did nothing (during the boom years in particular) in daily life but to abet and reinforce that condition.
 
May 18, 2009
3,757
0
0
Visit site
aphronesis said:
I'll bite (and Bison, I'm not bearing down on the cat media fight), and this obtains to 99% percent of the posters to this thread as a whole from day one, Merckx, before you call someone an ethical cretin, read what the person said and don't interpret it to suit your own--clearly sheltered and compartmentalized--life.

As someone who claims to be a scientist (you that is), I'm disappointed--but not surprised--at such a feeble and affectively charged and challenged paraphrase of what was said

And so that, Bison, this post stays back on topic: sociopaths come from, and are defined by, the society that breeds them. I'll bet big money and easy odds that, again, most of the posters on this thread--especially US-- do and did nothing (during the boom years in particular) in daily life but to abet and reinforce that condition.

Of course. The internet is the place to display the faux outrage fueled by little self awareness, propped up their alleged heroes.

I will also point out, as uspostal did above, that there were many people who were aware of LA's doping, and doping in the sport. Yet, they said nothing and continued to be in the sport either as a rider or as an employee of an entity associated with it.

I don't remember BA speaking up before she was deposed in SCA. She hasn't found the mirror yet. Hypocritical hero of the clinic hypocrites.
 
ChrisE said:
Of course. The internet is the place to display the faux outrage fueled by little self awareness, propped up their alleged heroes.

I will also point out, as uspostal did above, that there were many people who were aware of LA's doping, and doping in the sport. Yet, they said nothing and continued to be in the sport either as a rider or as an employee of an entity associated with it.

I don't remember BA speaking up before she was deposed in SCA. She hasn't found the mirror yet. Hypocritical hero of the clinic hypocrites.


Rubbish.

She spoke to Walsh for LA Con long before that...however I do have an issue with certain people on here having a go at Crowe yet saying JV made the right decision by waiting so long...for the record I think they are both a disgrace.