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Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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MarkvW said:
Armstrong's downfall, IMO, was Floyd as the essential catalyst plus the unwillingness of the other USPS co-conspirators to lie under oath to protect Armstrong. Armstrong marginalized the others very effectively up until that point.

Floyd was the final drop in the bucket, but Betsy helped fill that bucket. If you look at the USADA report, it is clear how important all the revelations were that came before Floyd's confession, since the report shows they went first to Betsy and Emma. USADA needed enough evidence to be able to put pressure on people who refused to confess until then. With only Floyd's confession, I'm sure USADA would have ignored it (like they ignored the situation before, when there was quite a bit of evidence already).

You also have to factor in that political considerations play a strong role in cases like these. Tygart needed sufficient support to be willing to take on the case without having to fear his investigation being shut down prematurely or killing his career. Over the years, more and more people became disillusioned with Armstrong, due to all the evidence coming out over time. Betsy played an important role by keeping the evidence against Armstrong in the news.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Aapjes said:
USADA needed enough evidence to be able to put pressure on people who refused to confess until then.

I may have misunderstood the various roles played, but I thought USADA had no means to force anyone to confess i.e. one could simply refuse to answer USADA's questions. I don't think USADA ignored Lance until the post-Landis revelations, they most likely concluded that they didn't have enough evidence to bring a case, as all they had were a few eye-witness accounts that could not be reliably corroborated.

What Floyd brought to the party was something that got the federal investigators involved i.e. evidence of misuse of state funding provided to USPS rather than doping per se. Once this happened, as Hamilton said, you got a knock on the door from an armed US marshall, at which point, you're out of options and simply tell the truth, unless you want to go down for perjury. Once the riders had "sung to the feds", continuing to stonewall USADA probably seemed pointless.

This is just my thinking. It may be the Betsy's role was key. Either way, Shezza is right. She needs to move on, as even getting to flick the switch on the electric chair in which Lance is secured won't make her happy until she does. Emma O'Reilly - who probably got worse treatment than Betsy - seems to have done this quite well.
 
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mewmewmew13 said:
Too bad Lance couldn't have "bawled" any better on Oprah…might've helped him win some more fanboys back…
thinned most of them out though

yeah and what he has left is what couldn't get out of the bottom of the barrel.....
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
I may have misunderstood the various roles played, but I thought USADA had no means to force anyone to confess i.e. one could simply refuse to answer USADA's questions.
Sure, if a rider didn't mind getting a 2 year ban he could have refused. Given the fact that even Hincapie confessed, I think USADA could force people in practice.

The USADA case is also a classic example of the prisoner's dilemma. Cooperating gives a relatively small fine, not cooperating gives a major penalty if others cooperate or no penalty at all if no one does. Cops have used this to their advantage when they didn't have enough evidence for centuries.

I don't think USADA ignored Lance until the post-Landis revelations, they most likely concluded that they didn't have enough evidence to bring a case, as all they had were a few eye-witness accounts that could not be reliably corroborated.

What Floyd brought to the party was something that got the federal investigators involved i.e. evidence of misuse of state funding provided to USPS rather than doping per se.
Floyd's evidence was just another testimony about doping at USPS. Emma's testimony was also about doping at USPS. Frankie's testimony was about USPS. Tyler Hamilton's book was about doping at USPS. So I don't see how Floyd's confession was suddenly so different from what was already known.

Once the riders had "sung to the feds", continuing to stonewall USADA probably seemed pointless.
Perhaps. I don't know what access Tygart had to those statements.

It may be the Betsy's role was key. Either way, Shezza is right. She needs to move on, as even getting to flick the switch on the electric chair in which Lance is secured won't make her happy until she does. Emma O'Reilly - who probably got worse treatment than Betsy - seems to have done this quite well.

I really don't know how significant she was, but I think it is too easy to just dismiss her. But I agree that she has nothing more to win now and is better off putting this behind her.
 
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Aapjes said:
Floyd was the final drop in the bucket, but Betsy helped fill that bucket. If you look at the USADA report, it is clear how important all the revelations were that came before Floyd's confession, since the report shows they went first to Betsy and Emma. USADA needed enough evidence to be able to put pressure on people who refused to confess until then. With only Floyd's confession, I'm sure USADA would have ignored it (like they ignored the situation before, when there was quite a bit of evidence already).

You also have to factor in that political considerations play a strong role in cases like these. Tygart needed sufficient support to be willing to take on the case without having to fear his investigation being shut down prematurely or killing his career. Over the years, more and more people became disillusioned with Armstrong, due to all the evidence coming out over time. Betsy played an important role by keeping the evidence against Armstrong in the news.

And that was the major pressure that may actually have turned the tide against Lance; his lobbyists and handlers pressuring legislators to "defund" USADA's "witchhunt". When you have John McCain dismissing them the end was near.
 
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Aapjes said:
Floyd's evidence was just another testimony about doping at USPS...Tyler Hamilton's book was about doping at USPS. So I don't see how Floyd's confession was suddenly so different from what was already known.

Didn't Hamilton's book come after the USADA investigation and affadavits?

I think the key difference about Landis was that he kicked off the process of people confessing who would otherwise have kept quiet? Prior to Landis and the armed marshalls persuading people to tell the truth, the only confessions came from those who could most likely be dismissed as having an axe to grind or a book to sell.
 
Aapjes said:
Floyd was the final drop in the bucket, but Betsy helped fill that bucket. If you look at the USADA report, it is clear how important all the revelations were that came before Floyd's confession, since the report shows they went first to Betsy and Emma. USADA needed enough evidence to be able to put pressure on people who refused to confess until then. With only Floyd's confession, I'm sure USADA would have ignored it (like they ignored the situation before, when there was quite a bit of evidence already).

You also have to factor in that political considerations play a strong role in cases like these. Tygart needed sufficient support to be willing to take on the case without having to fear his investigation being shut down prematurely or killing his career. Over the years, more and more people became disillusioned with Armstrong, due to all the evidence coming out over time. Betsy played an important role by keeping the evidence against Armstrong in the news.

Floyd triggered both the federal and USADA investigations. Without him, Lance would still be touting Nike Livestrong merchandise and flying around in his private jet.

The "news" didn't drive the Armstrong investigations, if you'll recall. The investigations drove the news.

All Betsy knew about doping was (a) Lance's bedside statement to the doctor; and (b) hearsay that Frankie told her. That information did not start an investigation--it just sat there (unavailing to the SCA defendants) UNTIL Floyd spilled the beans.

Betsy's information, and the information of the few others, corroborated Floyd enough to show that he wasn't simply a disgruntled doping liar--he was a disgruntled doping liar who was telling the truth. That was a significant role, to be sure, but everything depended upon Floyd. Floyd's information was the catalyst that--combined with Betsy and the others' information--started the reaction that ultimately brought about Lance's downfall.

The investigation, catalyzed by Floyd, then obtained the testimony of the other USPS co-conspirators. The testimony of all the USPS dopers, including Floyd, was overwhelming and sealed Lance's doom.
 
MarkvW said:
The investigation, catalyzed by Floyd, then obtained the testimony of the other USPS co-conspirators. The strategic admissions of all the USPS dopers, including Floyd, was overwhelming and sealed Lance's doom.

Fixed that for you.

Whatever happened to Lisa Shiels? It seems to me she might be an interesting source of information now that things are a little different. She seems to have vanished along with some others from the Hospital room. Funny how that worked out.
 
DirtyWorks said:
Fixed that for you.

Whatever happened to Lisa Shiels? It seems to me she might be an interesting source of information now that things are a little different. She seems to have vanished along with some others from the Hospital room. Funny how that worked out.

Thanks for fixing it for me. I appreciate the condescension. It's what makes this forum what it is.
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
I may have misunderstood the various roles played, but I thought USADA had no means to force anyone to confess i.e. one could simply refuse to answer USADA's questions. I don't think USADA ignored Lance until the post-Landis revelations, they most likely concluded that they didn't have enough evidence to bring a case, as all they had were a few eye-witness accounts that could not be reliably corroborated.

What Floyd brought to the party was something that got the federal investigators involved i.e. evidence of misuse of state funding provided to USPS rather than doping per se. Once this happened, as Hamilton said, you got a knock on the door from an armed US marshall, at which point, you're out of options and simply tell the truth, unless you want to go down for perjury. Once the riders had "sung to the feds", continuing to stonewall USADA probably seemed pointless.

This is just my thinking. It may be the Betsy's role was key. Either way, Shezza is right. She needs to move on, as even getting to flick the switch on the electric chair in which Lance is secured won't make her happy until she does. Emma O'Reilly - who probably got worse treatment than Betsy - seems to have done this quite well.

Seems a bit extreme, n'est-ce pas?

Do you really think it is Betsy that is hanging on, and cannot let go?

Didn't Lance call her to non-apologize before appearing on Oprah?

Didn't Lance commit to meet her in person in Austin, then notoriously no-show?

Didn't Lance, in one of his most awkward moments of all (Joking: "But, I never called her fat?), mention Betsy on Oprah?

Hasn't Lance tried to gut Frankie's career for over a decade?

Didn't Lance show up in Detroit to sit in on Betsy's deposition?

Didn't Lance mention her in his deposition?

In so doing all of these things, hasn't Lance himself raise her profile and confirmed her linkage to his doping situation in all of this?

Given that Betsy is
- attractive
- intelligent, coherent and literate
- consistent in her non-doping stance
- knowledgeable and directly impacted, yet a non-cyclist

Isn't she a logical go-to person for any balanced coverage?

As Lance himself has raised her profile, she is unavoidably one of the definitive go-to people.

That isn't calling her a victim, though she arguably was victimized, but merely observing the obvious.

Thus, if you want Betsy to go away then quit talking about her and ask the press, disenchanted Lance fans, and others to stop pursuing her.

She would probably be quite happy to just go back to being Betsy.

Dave.
 
To add to the above, through the emphasis of a second post, don't you find it to be highly contemptuous that those who keep criticizing Betsy and saying she should stay out of it are the ONLY ones talking about her and the ONLY ones that inject her name into conversations?

Just a question. But it does seem a little bizarre.

Dave.
 
D-Queued said:
To add to the above, through the emphasis of a second post, don't you find it to be highly contemptuous that those who keep criticizing Betsy and saying she should stay out of it are the ONLY ones talking about her and the ONLY ones that inject her name into conversations?

Just a question. But it does seem a little bizarre.

Dave.

I think that there is an element of baiting to it. Betsy has her partisans here and any criticism of her will always prompt them to respond. Betsy is still very active in her Lance Armstrong "awareness" publicity campaign, so criticism of her (mainly unfair) is to be expected.
 
MarkvW said:
Thanks for fixing it for me. I appreciate the condescension. It's what makes this forum what it is.

You misunderstood my post.

IMHO, it's very difficult to describe most of the affadavits as complete, or completely truthful. It's an important detail that highlights exactly how much the IOC/sport federation enables the cheating.
 
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D-Queued said:
Isn't she a logical go-to person for any balanced coverage?

She's an ideal person to go to for an opinion and an interesting interview, but she wouldn't be my first port of call for a balanced view on Lance and related matters.

This isn't a criticism, just a reflection of human nature. I think you'd need the mindset of Mother Theresa of Calcutta to remain balanced after the treatment Lance has dished out and she was a bit of a one-off, I suspect.

My comment about Betsy flicking the switch on Lance's electric chair was indeed a tad extreme, but it was to highlight that there is (in my view) no natural end game as far as Betsy and Lance are concerned. He's been stripped of his results, reputation and career as a Weekend Warrior, yet still she's not happy and all too willing to be quoted making unfavourable comments about Lance.

This anger may fuel something positive, but it doesn't bode well for her being happy, as she seems to want Lance to think differently to how he thinks. And even the genie in the bottle issues the "I can't make anybody love you" disclaimer.
 
DirtyWorks said:
You misunderstood my post.

IMHO, it's very difficult to describe most of the affadavits as complete, or completely truthful. It's an important detail that highlights exactly how much the IOC/sport federation enables the cheating.

We haven't gotten the complete picture yet. We know the evidence used against Armstrong, but we're still waiting on the evidence used against Bruyneel and the other contesting parties (because the process is still ongoing). Maybe more has been collected, but it remains private. I assume that Bruyneel and the trainers/docs interfaced more with the riders about the daily mechanics of doping than Armstrong did. I'm reserving my judgment on this until the Bruyneel/Celaya/del Moral evidence is made available to the public. I hope it will be.

The declarations were gathered by USADA. I can't see how USAC / UCI / IOC influenced the content of those declarations.
 
D-Queued said:
Seems a bit extreme, n'est-ce pas?

Do you really think it is Betsy that is hanging on, and cannot let go?

Great post. I'll just add, as RR pointed out before, that the Crow reference to Betsy that started this discussion was to something Betsy said quite a while ago. Not recently. So I agree, it's not Betsy who needs to move on.

Now here's an interesting question for all of you:

Suppose LA had given Floyd a position on a bike team, and Floyd had never spilled the beans. Who else might have had enough information, and enough immunity from repercussions, to bring down LA?
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
She's an ideal person to go to for an opinion and an interesting interview, but she wouldn't be my first port of call for a balanced view on Lance and related matters.

This isn't a criticism, just a reflection of human nature. I think you'd need the mindset of Mother Theresa of Calcutta to remain balanced after the treatment Lance has dished out and she was a bit of a one-off, I suspect.

My comment about Betsy flicking the switch on Lance's electric chair was indeed a tad extreme, but it was to highlight that there is (in my view) no natural end game as far as Betsy and Lance are concerned. He's been stripped of his results, reputation and career as a Weekend Warrior, yet still she's not happy and all too willing to be quoted making unfavourable comments about Lance.

This anger may fuel something positive, but it doesn't bode well for her being happy, as she seems to want Lance to think differently to how he thinks. And even the genie in the bottle issues the "I can't make anybody love you" disclaimer.

While she sometimes surprises with how balanced her statements are, I agree that she would be expected by the press to present 'the other side'.

If she didn't, then someone would potentially criticize her for selling out or facilitating a sociopath.

Thus, part of the challenge for someone like Betsy is that the more extreme her statement, the more likely that is the only part of the coverage that is aired or printed.

We probably don't have to worry about her 'end game' though. Probably will be quite happy to focus on her kids.

Dave.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Suppose LA had given Floyd a position on a bike team, and Floyd had never spilled the beans. Who else might have had enough information, and enough immunity from repercussions, to bring down LA?

Tyler certainly had the info, and he had reached the point where his career was beyond being damaged. But Floyd was still the only person, as I see it, that possessed the other, essential, ingredient.

"You don't want to be the one fighting the crazy guy with nothing to lose," he says, and then begins to laugh. "Don't poke the crazy guy"

Words to live by. Or to Livestrong by, if you will.

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