Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[red_flanders]

Yup. Hincapie comes across as a lot more credible than Andreu here.

Funny enough, so does Armstrong.

I wouldn't believe a word Armstrong said about Frankie or anyone with whom he'd had a beef.

Hincapie doesn't usually say much. Interesting to have all that commentary on the record from him. Does come off somewhat credible, and is frankly more believable than the story from Frankie.

I don't doubt Frankie tired of the whole program at Postal, doping, Armstrong, Bruyneel, and what appeared to be a rather toxic environment of all Lance all the time. I would not be surprised however if Frankie has under-reported the extent of his doping.

Makes no difference to me with regard to the real reason Armstrong is slamming him again, that he told the truth about Armstrong's BS.

But what about Hincapie's extensive comments, the bulk of that article?

 

[red_flanders]

Funny how he changes the spin now. Must have forgotten about it when he talked to USADA and the Feds.

It is comical they pretend that Frankie was never targeted, that they never did anything to him.....yet George says



Which is it? Was Frankie targeted or not?

I didn't see Hincapie claiming Frankie was or wasn't targeted in that article or the affidavit. Are you referring to something else?

Really George? Did Frankie do transfusions? Was he part of the group that got access to the camper and motoman in 99?

Hincapie says he did EPO with Frankie, the he saw Frankie being injected, and that the extent of Frankie's use was not just experimental.

I don't see that as inconsistent with the quote, "I know Frankie was part of the whole system as well”. I don't see why not being included in transfusions or campers or motoman would have anything to do with that comment. Pretty clearly he means to say that Frankie was involved in doping just like everyone else. Seems clear that this is part of the factual record.

 

[Granville57]

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020035/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong-doping

I don't understand the context here:

He [Hincapie] told the Free Press last week...

What prompted George to be talking with the Detroit Free Press in the first place? Is there a more thorough account of that discussion or does that linked article represent Kristen Jordan Shamus's full report?

 

[Granville57]

This is an amusing excerpt from "Big George"

He told the Free Press last week that seeing Andreu with EPO in his refrigerator for the first time had a big impact on him.

“Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’

Yes, George, because free will does not exist. Good thing Frankie never jumped off a cliff in front of Hincapie.

Not that I’m blaming Frankie.

No, no, of course not. It doesn't come off that way at all, George. Not one bit.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't understand the context here:


What prompted George to be talking with the Detroit Free Press in the first place? Is there a more thorough account of that discussion or does that linked article represent Kristen Jordan Shamus's full report?

Armstrong knows he has no chance with the cycling press, they know his tactics too well. He talks to "Reporters" who do not know the story or his tactics. He got the "Reporter" in touch with George

 

[Race Radio]

I don't see that as inconsistent with the quote, "I know Frankie was part of the whole system as well”. I don't see why not being included in transfusions or campers or motoman would have anything to do with that comment. Pretty clearly he means to say that Frankie was involved in doping just like everyone else. Seems clear that this is part of the factual record.

So "Whole systems" means everything except Ferrari, Transfusions, Motoman, The camper, del Moral......etc?

It is comical to pretend that Frankie's doping was to the same level as George and lance. Revisionist history designed to smear Frankie

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, George, because free will does not exist.

The "Everyone was doing it" line worked so well with Mom

 

[red_flanders]

So "Whole systems" means everything except Ferrari, Transfusions, Motoman, The camper, del Moral......etc?

I didn't say that, why put words into my mouth? I said that Hincapie saying Frankie was part of the "whole system" is not inconsistent with the known facts of Frankie's doping. I read it as "the whole [cycling] system" not "the whole [Postal operation]".

It is comical to pretend that Frankie's doping was to the same level as George and lance. Revisionist history designed to smear Frankie

I did not read Hincapie's comments as saying "Frankie's doping was to the same level as George and Lance". I read it for what it said. Clearly you feel this is part of some Armstrong game to smear Frankie, and from what Armstrong says (and which I would guess is utter BS) it is. It is not clear at all that Hincapie's comments are in the same vein. They read as reasonable and probably true.

That a reporter has put it all out there as some kind of meaningful story is what adds the air of conspiracy to defame. Reading Hincapie's comments at face value they seem consistent with all the facts. And add in the ideas that Frankie's doping might have been a bit more than he likes to let on, and might have a bit less to do with why he left than has been in the narrative.

Neither terribly hard to believe. Neither changes the facts about Armstrong. Non-story IMO.

 

[red_flanders]

This is an amusing excerpt from "Big George"

Yes, George, because free will does not exist. Good thing Frankie never jumped off a cliff in front of Hincapie.

No, no, of course not. It doesn't come off that way at all, George. Not one bit.

Right, because nobody was ever influenced to do things in a certain way in the workplace by a mentor? Maybe seeing that Frankie doped explained a lot about other things Hincapie had seen and heard in the group. Seems very likely.

Why do people insist on reading these black and white interpretations into these simple comments?

Drop the agendas and read the actual statements. Then put yourself in the place of the person reading it.

 

[Granville57]

The amount of bs flowing from that article is absurd.

“Once he [Frankie] left cycling, he was very opinionated about the system. For me, it was hard to accept that. It was hard to understand why he was so opinionated about it when he was part of it."

Really, George? Allow me to offer one possibility: Link

“We’d won the second tour. But we were, even then, on a limited budget,” Armstrong says. “Frankie was making about $150,000 a year. He came to us and said, ‘I have an offer from another team for $300,000.’ ... We said, ‘Hey, if you can get 300, you need to take the 300; that’s a great offer.’ ”

LOL. Yeah, I'm sure that was the exact language used as well.
"Hey, if you can get 300, you need to take the 300; that’s a great offer."

But Armstrong’s team manager, Johan Bruyneel, ran into the manager of the team that allegedly offered Frankie the job,

"Ran into" LOL.
Like Bruyneel doesn't have a history of lying, manipulating and doing everything he can to disrupt negotiations between others. Sure.

In an e-mail exchange with the Free Press last weekend, Armstrong, a lifelong Dallas Cowboys fan, referenced an ESPN story about Josh Brent, a Cowboys player who was sentenced to 180 days in jail and 10 years probation for the drunken driving crash that killed his friend and teammate, Jerry Brown.

In the story, Brown’s mother, Stacey Jackson, is quoted as saying: “He’s still responsible, but you can’t go on in life holding a grudge. We all make mistakes.”

Said Armstrong: “Betsy could use a little Stacey Jackson in her life.”

Did Josh Brent go on an extensive smear campaign, lasting years, in an effort to make Stacey Jackson look bad?

This is yet another sad attempt by Armstrong to bolster his own image, this time by referencing the unfortunate death of someone completely unrelated to the sh!t storm that he has created for himself.

Stay classy, Lance. Stay classy.

 

[Race Radio]

I didn't say that, why put words into my mouth? I said that Hincapie saying Frankie was part of the "whole system" is not inconsistent with the known facts of Frankie's doping. I read it as "the whole [cycling] system" not "the whole [Postal operation]".



I did not read Hincapie's comments as saying "Frankie's doping was to the same level as George and Lance". I read it for what it said. Clearly you feel this is part of some Armstrong game to smear Frankie, and from what Armstrong says (and which I would guess is utter BS) it is. It is not clear at all that Hincapie's comments are in the same vein. They read as reasonable and probably true.

That a reporter has put it all out there as some kind of meaningful story is what adds the air of conspiracy to defame. Reading Hincapie's comments at face value they seem consistent with all the facts. And add in the ideas that Frankie's doping might have been a bit more than he likes to let on, and might have a bit less to do with why he left than has been in the narrative.

Neither terribly hard to believe. Neither changes the facts about Armstrong. Non-story IMO.

It is clearly an attempt by Lance and George to smear the Andreu's. Pretending Frankie was equal to lance and George is obvious

We were all part of a screwed-up sport. Just because one of us stopped before the others doesn’t make him a better person.”

Pretending Frankie was never targeted, that Betsy was fully aware of the doping...... it is absurd.

 

[Race Radio]

Drop the agendas and read the actual statements. Then put yourself in the place of the person reading it.

I suggest you do the same

 

[red_flanders]

I suggest you do the same

One, not a reference to you and two, you have to be kidding.

 

[red_flanders]

It is clearly an attempt by Lance and George to smear the Andreu's. Pretending Frankie was equal to lance and George is obvious





Pretending Frankie was never targeted, that Betsy was fully aware of the doping...... it is absurd.

I asked above where Hincapie claims Frankie wasn't targeted–I don't see it.

Just because I'm asking you questions about your statements doesn't mean you have to get all chippy.

What you're seeing in the overall situation and the subtext simply isn't coming out in Hincapie's comments. I have no doubt that you're correct that Armstrong is manipulating the narrative again. What I don't see is all the stuff you're inferring from Hincapie's comments. I don't see where he said Frankie was doping just as they were, I don't see where he said Frankie wasn't targeted, in fact he obliquely refers to the fact that they were.

I simply think you're making Hincapie's part in this latest meaningless hiccup in this long and sordid saga more than it appears to be. Or you're not explaining it very well.

Again, you add in that he claims "Betsy was fully aware of the doping". What I read was quite the opposite:

A lot of what Frankie did, I don’t know if she (Betsy) even knows.”

 

[Granville57]

Drop the agendas and read the actual statements. Then put yourself in the place of the person reading it.

I think we're actually seeing all of this from a more similar perspective than you are allowing for.

That a reporter has put it all out there as some kind of meaningful story is what adds the air of conspiracy to defame.

Non-story IMO.

That's kind of my point. Of course I understand social dynamics, etc, and the pressures and influences that exist in all of our lives. That fact alone that "Big George" is opening his mouth at all about this topic, just as this latest documentary is making the rounds, raises a red flag for me. I can't help but treat everything single thing the guy says with extreme skepticism.

 

[Race Radio]

I asked above where Hincapie claims Frankie wasn't targeted–I don't see it.

He is clearly trying to downplay how and why Frankie was let go

I never remember him saying, ‘I’m sick of this doping stuff,’ ” Hincapie says. “He wanted to renew his contract, and there was a discrepancy between what he wanted and what the team wanted. He never said, ‘I don’t want to dope anymore.’

Revisionist history

 

[red_flanders]

I think we're actually seeing all of this from a more similar perspective than you are allowing for.



That's kind of my point. Of course I understand social dynamics, etc, and the pressures and influences that exist in all of our lives. That fact alone that "Big George" is opening his mouth at all about this topic, just as this latest documentary is making the rounds, raises a red flag for me. I can't help but treat everything single thing the guy says with extreme skepticism.

OK, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification and sorry about the agenda comment.

I find his comments pretty measured and believable. I attribute the timing to the media and what RR says about Lance's prodding seems very believable as well.

 

[Race Radio]

I asked above where Hincapie claims Frankie wasn't targeted–I don't see it.

He is clearly trying to downplay how and why Frankie was let go

I never remember him saying, ‘I’m sick of this doping stuff,’ ” Hincapie says. “He wanted to renew his contract, and there was a discrepancy between what he wanted and what the team wanted. He never said, ‘I don’t want to dope anymore.’

And

“It was never clear to me why Frankie stopped riding (for U.S. Postal),” Hincapie says.

Revisionist history. Funny how Hincapie says Frankie never said he wanted to stop doping but Tyler mentioned it several times in his book

 

[Race Radio]

George and lance need to coordinate their stories better


George

A lot of what Frankie did, I don’t know if she (Betsy) even knows.”

Lance

It’s impossible. That is a fact. If they lived together, she knew.

 

[red_flanders]

He is clearly trying to downplay how and why Frankie was let go



Revisionist history

Thanks for clarifying. Are you saying that there was no dispute about the money at all?

I buy that he left because of the whole package. The doping, Lance being Lance, contract questions. I'd never heard the contract angle before. If true, it adds color and rounds out the situation. More believable that there were a host of reasons he left than this black and white "dope or you're off the team" idea.

I'm sure that was an undercurrent. I also think what Hincapie says on the whole thing reads as believable.

 

[red_flanders]

George and lance need to coordinate their stories better


George



Lance

So basically exactly what I said. Lance is clearly lying again, and Hincapie seems believable.

 

[gooner]

I asked above where Hincapie claims Frankie wasn't targeted–I don't see it.

Just because I'm asking you questions about your statements doesn't mean you have to get all chippy.

What you're seeing in the overall situation and the subtext simply isn't coming out in Hincapie's comments. I have no doubt that you're correct that Armstrong is manipulating the narrative again. What I don't see is all the stuff you're inferring from Hincapie's comments. I don't see where he said Frankie was doping just as they were, I don't see where he said Frankie wasn't targeted, in fact he obliquely refers to the fact that they were.

I simply think you're making Hincapie's part in this latest meaningless hiccup in this long and sordid saga more than it appears to be. Or you're not explaining it very well.

Again, you add in that he claims "Betsy was fully aware of the doping". What I read was quite the opposite:

When I was watching the film a couple of days back, Hincapie said he looked up to Frankie and that he was more or less a ringleader. In the same section referring to Frankie, he said it wasn't true that you would have been forced off the team if you didn't dope.

Along with the film and reading this now, it's liked a briefed attack on him.

 

[Scott SoCal]

I think we're actually seeing all of this from a more similar perspective than you are allowing for.



That's kind of my point. Of course I understand social dynamics, etc, and the pressures and influences that exist in all of our lives. That fact alone that "Big George" is opening his mouth at all about this topic, just as this latest documentary is making the rounds, raises a red flag for me. I can't help but treat everything single thing the guy says with extreme skepticism.

Bingo.

The smart play for GH is to STFU and let the passage of time take most of the edge off. He's not seen in the same light as LA, not by a mile.

That he opens up about this stuff.... re-setting the clock (again) screams to something else going on.

 

[Granville57]

Funny how Hincapie says Frankie never said he wanted to stop doping but Tyler mentioned it several times in his book

A couple of relevant quotes from Tyler's book:

Page 110
I can't speak for everyone on the team, but it was my impression that most of the riders had the same full-disclosure policy when it came to their wives and girlfriends. There was only one notable exception: Frankie Andreu

Page 112
Frankie did what he had to do. Fortunately for him, it wasn't as much as Kevin, Lance and I had to do. This was due to the fact that Frankie was a rouleur, a big guy, suited for grinding through flatter and rolling stages, and so required less [EPO] and other therapy than we climbers did. If we had to tune our engines to 99 percent of capacity at the Tour, Frankie could gut it out while staying a little closer to au naturale.

Also this in regards to salary:

Page 132
"Kevin [Livingston] thinks he's gonna get paid. Well, he's not going to get paid ***."
A few weeks later, I was riding with Lance, and he started talking about Frankie Andreu. Apparently Frankie had also asked for a raise, and Lance was not happy about that either.
"Frankie thinks he's gonna get paid. Well, he's not going to get paid ***."

It wasn't personal, it was mathematical.
If Lance could free up salary money by cutting a couple old friends from the team, he made it happen.

Neither Livingston or Andreu was offered a contract for 2001. Kevin wound up on Telekom, riding for Jan Ullrich (in the press, Lance was unmerciful, comparing it to American general Norman Schwarzkopf going to work for Communist China ) and Frankie simply retired.

 

[MarkvW]

"Frankie Andreu told the Free Press he only experimented with EPO, in 1995-96; it wasn’t until 1999 that he used it with any regularity in competition."

So . . . Andreu admits to using EPO with regularity.

He's no better and no worse than the other teammates who supported Lance.