Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[MarkvW]

I've got a different, or possibly complementary, angle.

Did the payola stop with the Triple Crown?

That doesn't make sense.

Especially not with the coinage he generated, and was expecting through SCA. And, not with how much each incremental success was worth, which was far, far more to him than anyone else. Kind of like the Triple Crown all over again, only many more times as valuable.

Thus, it seems hard to believe he didn't pay off Basso, for example. That Alpe d'Huez TT was embarrassing.

Dave.

I'll believe anything after reading that the Kazakh federation comped Vino after LBL with Kolobnev.

 

[ChrisE]

I've got a different, or possibly complementary, angle.

Did the payola stop with the Triple Crown?

That doesn't make sense.

Especially not with the coinage he generated, and was expecting through SCA. And, not with how much each incremental success was worth, which was far, far more to him than anyone else. Kind of like the Triple Crown all over again, only many more times as valuable.

Thus, it seems hard to believe he didn't pay off Basso, for example. That Alpe d'Huez TT was embarrassing.

Dave.

You claiming LA ushered in the method of payoffs in cycling? He really is in your head.

So, your theory is that LA just paid everybody off for those 7 years? Have you told this to people that should know, so they can start blabbing about it?

Basso TT, if somebody has an off day it is because LA paid them off. Bravo. Did JU bribe LA with some ecstacy at the bottom of Joux Plane for the after stage orgy at the hotel?

 

[ChrisE]

Yeah. The UCI cover-up card. Really proves that professional cycling isn't a circus, doesn't it?

I don't think it is only in cycling. Hinault was right on that point...cycling gets a bad rap when other sports are doping just as much, or more.

Look at the joke that is the MLB testing. Do you think 300+ lb linemen running sub 5 second 40's are doing it on water and t-bones? Look at how soccer skated after OP. Tennis, etc. Doping = bad press = loss of revenue holds true for all sports. This isn't just in cycling. There is much more incentive not to catch cheats, than to catch them.

 

[Bluenote]

You claiming LA ushered in the method of payoffs in cycling? He really is in your head.

So, your theory is that LA just paid everybody off for those 7 years? Have you told this to people that should know, so they can start blabbing about it?

Basso TT, if somebody has an off day it is because LA paid them off. Bravo. Did JU bribe LA with some ecstacy at the bottom of Joux Plane for the after stage orgy at the hotel?

Note Dave's use of the word "complementary."

He describes his theory as a "complementary angle," y'know going along with what MarkVw is saying. Nowhere does he say Armstrong invented payoffs, he just theorizes about when he participated in them.

A doping culture = a circus
A payoff culture = a circus

I agree with Dave about payoffs corrupting procycling. I agree with MarkVW about procycling being a circus. See, harmony in the land. But I hear you all hate groupthink.

 

[ChrisE]

Note Dave's use of the word "complementary."

He describes his theory as a "complementary angle," y'know going along with what MarkVw is saying. Nowhere does he say Armstrong invented payoffs, he just theorizes about when he participated in them.

A doping culture = a circus
A payoff culture = a circus

I agree with Dave about payoffs corrupting procycling. I agree with MarkVW about procycling being a circus. See, harmony in the land. But I hear you all hate groupthink.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to follow me around the forum nit-picking. Maybe you feel the need for validation due to some trauma in your past. You should check into that.

Mark, Dave, and I have been discussing doping for many years, close to 10 for me and Dave. We've gotten this far without your interpretations, at least in your present form of Bluenote.

"Complimentary" was his additional thought about UCI cover going hand with payoffs to other riders by LA, which could help explain his dominance. It wasn't to 'go along with what Mark was saying'. So, your pretzel logic of what Dave means is off, but I'm sure that won't stop you in the future from being foolish.

 

[Bluenote]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to follow me around the forum nit-picking. Maybe you feel the need for validation due to some trauma in your past. You should check into that.

Mark, Dave, and I have been discussing doping for many years, close to 10 for me and Dave. We've gotten this far without your interpretations, at least in your present form of Bluenote.

"Complimentary" was his additional thought about UCI cover going hand with payoffs to other riders by LA, which could help explain his dominance. It wasn't to 'go along with what Mark was saying'. So, your pretzel logic of what Dave means is off, but I'm sure that won't stop you in the future from being foolish.

I know it's hard to admit that you, MarkVw and Dave are agreeing on something.

I can understand why that would frustrate you and cause you to lash out.

I guess I'm supposed to get all ****ed off and take all the bait in your steaming pile of a bait-post. Particularly the elbow about "past trauma" thrown at an "out" survivor of child sexual abuse.

But no, it actually amuses me. It's like one big tell on how much you can't stand agreement in the Clinic.

Honestly, I find it so sublimely funny that it's put me in a good mood. I can't muster any outrage at your post, because it gave me such a good giggle.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Lance was a faster bike racer than everybody else at the height of the EPO era. He was faster because he presented the most effective combination of dope, effort, and physical ability. Lance may have been a donkey before the dope, but after the dope he was anything but.

No question there. Maybe I'm not being clear. Wonderboy benefits by merging all forms of doping pre-EPO and EPO/HGH/Test onwards. And we know that's just not the case. The reality is EPO turns the sport upside down. Riis wining a grand tour being the perfect example.

Whether Lance had "natural ability" or not is irrelevant.

And you talk about perverted, "natural ability" changes from VO2 max to how well you respond to oxygen vector doping. In the EPO era he had three things for sure working for him.

###########
-Relentless cheat. Dope and buying races is winning.
- IMO, there appears to have been a many riders that were somewhat fearful of testing positive. Either the UCI treated them differently, or didn't communicate with them at all. Hence, guys like Floyd were analyzing their own blood parameters to 'never test positive.'

- The UCI was, for sure, protecting Wonderboy to the point of sanctioning his rivals. We know USAC was doing it too. Meanwhile Och is employed by Thom Wiesel and managing some funds at Thom's bucket shop.

Those three things together created the myth of 7x grand tour winner. Other athletes just weren't permitted to get too close.

 

[ChrisE]

Cool story, bro.

 

[MarkvW]

No question there. Maybe I'm not being clear. Wonderboy benefits by merging all forms of doping pre-EPO and EPO/HGH/Test onwards. And we know that's just not the case. The reality is EPO turns the sport upside down. Riis wining a grand tour being the perfect example.



And you talk about perverted, "natural ability" changes from VO2 max to how well you respond to oxygen vector doping. In the EPO era he had three things for sure working for him.

###########
-Relentless cheat. Dope and buying races is winning.
- IMO, there appears to have been a many riders that were somewhat fearful of testing positive. Either the UCI treated them differently, or didn't communicate with them at all. Hence, guys like Floyd were analyzing their own blood parameters to 'never test positive.'

- The UCI was, for sure, protecting Wonderboy to the point of sanctioning his rivals. We know USAC was doing it too. Meanwhile Och is employed by Thom Wiesel and managing some funds at Thom's bucket shop.

Those three things together created the myth of 7x grand tour winner. Other athletes just weren't permitted to get too close.

You've just established that the whole structure of professional cycling is fundamentally corrupt. You assert that Lance was the sole focus and beneficiary of all that corruption ("Other athletes just weren't permitted to get too close."). If that doesn't define a filthy circus, I don't know what does.

What does it matter which doper triumphs in the filthy circus?

And, although it gets spouted here as gospel, I don't think you are correct. If the UCI corruption was too outrageous in Lance's favor, it is unlikely that the other teams would have put up with it (unless they were complicit too).

 

[python]

And you talk about perverted, "natural ability" changes from VO2 max to how well you respond to oxygen vector doping.

'perverted'...i like your word selection. per your own link i pinned, there was NO superior natural ability based on the cold, hard facts of the us olympic center testing. NONE compared to dozens of similar subjects. otoh, as i posted already, there were multiple indirect signs easily compatible w/exceedingly high doses of all sorts of doping.

In the EPO era he had three things for sure working for him...

i dont know if it was 2, 3 or more 'things' (some i really would like to explore more scientifically). what's obvious, he was an outstanding scum never observed among other dopers or otherwise... ready to go to ANY length to betray anyone - from fellow dopers, to his family members, to fellow cancer survivors...to his own health.

why, why, why anyone would still try defending such a scum by deflections to lemond, floyd or hinault... is beyond common sense...perhaps in stead of shutting TFU they feel the need for validation due to some trauma their past ? a trauma of seeing their subject of infatuation go crushing ?

cool story....

 

[D-Queued]

I know it's hard to admit that you, MarkVw and Dave are agreeing on something.

I can understand why that would frustrate you and cause you to lash out.

I guess I'm supposed to get all ****ed off and take all the bait in your steaming pile of a bait-post. Particularly the elbow about "past trauma" thrown at an "out" survivor of child sexual abuse.

But no, it actually amuses me. It's like one big tell on how much you can't stand agreement in the Clinic.

Honestly, I find it so sublimely funny that it's put me in a good mood. I can't muster any outrage at your post, because it gave me such a good giggle.

Agreed

ChrisE, I am obviously not suggesting Lance invented payoffs.

That is and would be foolish.

Payoffs in cycling have been there forever. At least the kind where you offer to split part of the prize money for a stage/race/KOM win.

Lance did take this to a whole new level for the Thrift Drug prize - and there is no dispute about whether that actually took place (unless Lance is disputing it). There was another race where he was known to offer some cash, but I cannot remember which one.

It has probably been discussed before, but it is inconceivable that Lance wouldn't have at least considered offering some favors for favors.

And, Basso didn't have a bad day up the Alpe. He just soft pedaled and let Lance rip past him. On a bad day Basso is a better climber than that. Riis, as you may recall, just about blew a blood vessel at Basso's performance. He was, of course, gifted a later stage on his mother's (grandmother's?) birthday. But, it would be behaviorally consistent for Lance to have offered another monetary bribe at least once during the seven Tours. And, as noted previously, he had a lot more cash at his disposal to offer accommodation incentives.

Don't think this was the case with Ullrich, but who knows.

Dave.

 

[ChrisE]

Agreed

ChrisE, I am obviously not suggesting Lance invented payoffs.

That is and would be foolish.

Payoffs in cycling have been there forever. At least the kind where you offer to split part of the prize money for a stage/race/KOM win.

Lance did take this to a whole new level for the Thrift Drug prize - and there is no dispute about whether that actually took place (unless Lance is disputing it). There was another race where he was known to offer some cash, but I cannot remember which one.

It has probably been discussed before, but it is inconceivable that Lance wouldn't have at least considered offering some favors for favors.

And, Basso didn't have a bad day up the Alpe. He just soft pedaled and let Lance rip past him. On a bad day Basso is a better climber than that. Riis, as you may recall, just about blew a blood vessel at Basso's performance. He was, of course, gifted a later stage on his mother's (grandmother's?) birthday. But, it would be behaviorally consistent for Lance to have offered another monetary bribe at least once during the seven Tours. And, as noted previously, he had a lot more cash at his disposal to offer accommodation incentives.

Don't think this was the case with Ullrich, but who knows.

Dave.

Clinic is a team sport, I understand. Don't quote both of us, with Mark suggesting LA superiority and me discounting UCI coverup, and then you being 'complimentary' by making up some other 7 year conspiracy that will keep the clinic in heat. I don't agree with you one bit about payoffs for that long of period.

You can make up whatever you want about bad days. You spout your resume about what you have done, even mail it around the internet like a fool, but obviously you haven't raced bikes. Else, you are just talking ****, which wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Bluenote]

Agreed

ChrisE, I am obviously not suggesting Lance invented payoffs.

That is and would be foolish.

Payoffs in cycling have been there forever. At least the kind where you offer to split part of the prize money for a stage/race/KOM win.

Lance did take this to a whole new level for the Thrift Drug prize - and there is no dispute about whether that actually took place (unless Lance is disputing it). There was another race where he was known to offer some cash, but I cannot remember which one.

It has probably been discussed before, but it is inconceivable that Lance wouldn't have at least considered offering some favors for favors.

Dave.

Agreed. So that's 4 people agreeing, if we get a quorum of people agreeing, will the Clinic break out in a kumbaya?

I agree that payoffs and gifts were / are part of cycling culture. Some if it is ceremonial - letting someone lead laps on the Champs Elysees, for example. But you definitely hear stories of guys buying off other guys in breaks. And, of course, big stories like Armstrong and Thrift Drugs or Vinokurov and LBL.

Between doping and payoffs and alleged corruption in the UCI - I also agree that pro-cycling is "a circus."

It's like I said above, in response to Alpe73:

Pro-cycling? I'll watch occasionally, kinda like how I occasionally watch boxing, Football, or an action movie. It can be entertaining, but I couldn't tell you where reality ends and illusion begins.

 

[Bluenote]

Clinic is a team sport, I understand. Don't quote both of us, with Mark suggesting LA superiority and me discounting UCI coverup, and then you being 'complimentary' by making up some other 7 year conspiracy that will keep the clinic in heat. I don't agree with you one bit about payoffs for that long of period.

You can make up whatever you want about bad days. You spout your resume about what you have done, even mail it around the internet like a fool, but obviously you haven't raced bikes. Else, you are just talking ****, which wouldn't surprise me.

Dave, I hope all this bait is giving you a good laugh too.

 

[Spawn of e]

Dave, I hope all this bait is giving you a good laugh too.

Not quite as much fun as watching you used your alleged past as a crutch.

 

[D-Queued]

Clinic is a team sport, I understand. Don't quote both of us, with Mark suggesting LA superiority and me discounting UCI coverup, and then you being 'complimentary' by making up some other 7 year conspiracy that will keep the clinic in heat. I don't agree with you one bit about payoffs for that long of period.

You can make up whatever you want about bad days. You spout your resume about what you have done, even mail it around the internet like a fool, but obviously you haven't raced bikes. Else, you are just talking ****, which wouldn't surprise me.

WTF are you talking about?

Now that is talking sh*t.

Dave.

 

[Spawn of e]

WTF are you talking about?

Now that is talking sh*t.

Dave.

Yeah, ego clouds memory.

So, if you want to admit its possible to have bad days then that is fine. Since I know you know that is possible, you should just cut the shyt.

Why would Basso throw a TT when he was already minutes behind?

 

[Bluenote]

Not quite as much fun as watching you used your alleged past as a crutch.

I know I'm - supposed to get all defensive and ****ed off by this. "I never used it as a crutch, blah, blah, that's so low, blah, blah, kiddie rape ain't funny, blah, blah...." But, it's just not working. I mean, you've really doubled down on the bait.

So you must be really, really freaked out that people are agreeing in the Clinic. Heck, not just the Clinic, but the Armstrong thread. Man, you'd better stop it in its tracks, lest it spread to the Sky thread.

Wow, that'd really s@ck for you, if you agree with "someone who has never raced" (Dave) and someone who "uses their alleged past as a crutch."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvCgSqPZ4EM

I'm kinda fascinated to see what bait you throw out next. I mean, it doesn't get much lower than digs about child abuse. Maybe you'll accuse me of being a serial killer? Inbred? A fan of the "Twilight" movies? Cracks about my mom? Heck, maybe you'll accuse my mom of being a "Twilight" fan.

Think hard. Don't disappoint me with lame, formulaic bait, OK.

 

[Afrank]

Time to cut it out with the personal attacks and get back on topic people.

 

[patricknd]

Agreed

ChrisE, I am obviously not suggesting Lance invented payoffs.

That is and would be foolish.

Payoffs in cycling have been there forever. At least the kind where you offer to split part of the prize money for a stage/race/KOM win.

Lance did take this to a whole new level for the Thrift Drug prize - and there is no dispute about whether that actually took place (unless Lance is disputing it). There was another race where he was known to offer some cash, but I cannot remember which one.

It has probably been discussed before, but it is inconceivable that Lance wouldn't have at least considered offering some favors for favors.

And, Basso didn't have a bad day up the Alpe. He just soft pedaled and let Lance rip past him. On a bad day Basso is a better climber than that. Riis, as you may recall, just about blew a blood vessel at Basso's performance. He was, of course, gifted a later stage on his mother's (grandmother's?) birthday. But, it would be behaviorally consistent for Lance to have offered another monetary bribe at least once during the seven Tours. And, as noted previously, he had a lot more cash at his disposal to offer accommodation incentives.

Don't think this was the case with Ullrich, but who knows.

Dave.

I think Basso's stage win was an earlier stage, not later, but I do remember something about his mother playing in to it

 

[blackcat]

I think Basso's stage win was an earlier stage, not later, but I do remember something about his mother playing in to it

mother had cancer, Armstrong had promised to get her the best oncologists at Indiana U

 

[thehog]

Time to cut it out with the personal attacks and get back on topic people.

Lance withdraws from Beer Mile.

Armstrong’s attempt was short-lived, however, because after he chugged a beer, ran one lap well behind the leaders, and grabbed another beer, he dropped out. He was heard saying in the video of the time trial, “That was not what I expected.”

Patrick Hitchins, who finished second in the time trial in 6:08, told Texas Running Post, “[Armstrong] drank Budweiser heavy from a 12 ounce can, no widemouth, following strict international beer mile standards. Perhaps his days with Michelob Ultra Lite put him at a disadvantage. He’s probably on his way to a gas station getting some Budweisers right now and practicing his chugging. He’s a competitor. I hope to see him out there again.”

http://m.runnersworld.com/general-interest/lance-armstrong-tries-beer-mile-does-not-finish

 

[DirtyWorks]

Lance withdraws from Beer Mile.



http://m.runnersworld.com/general-interest/lance-armstrong-tries-beer-mile-does-not-finish

Wonderboy seems to have some rudimentary understanding of image rehabilitation, but can't seem to keep the inner @ssh0le down. Too bad.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You've just established that the whole structure of professional cycling is fundamentally corrupt.

Yes. I wasn't denying it. Is it forbidden to keep two conflicting ideas going at once?

Idea #1: Cycling as a vaguely legitimate sport.
Idea #2: Cycling so thoroughly corrupted it may as well be the WWE.

If the UCI corruption was too outrageous in Lance's favor, it is unlikely that the other teams would have put up with it (unless they were complicit too).

What exactly would a team that constantly lost to Wiesel and Wonderboy do? To be fair, Wonderboy left the rest of the WT table scraps, basically most of the rest of the calendar.

 

[MarkvW]

Yes. I wasn't denying it. Is it forbidden to keep two conflicting ideas going at once?

Idea #1: Cycling as a vaguely legitimate sport.
Idea #2: Cycling so thoroughly corrupted it may as well be the WWE.

What exactly would a team that constantly lost to Wiesel and Wonderboy do? To be fair, Wonderboy left the rest of the WT table scraps, basically most of the rest of the calendar.

It is not forbidden to keep two conflicting ideas going at once. Introduce inflammatory language ("Wonderboy and the faithful"), and you might even stimulate an emotionally charged argument from someone who is annoyed with being unfairly tarred with the fanboy brush.

We do know what the rest of the peloton did--almost without exception, they praised Lance as a great champion. Either professional cyclists (a) have no idea what a great cycling champion is, (b) were unaware of Lance's doping; or (c) they were lying like crazy. In a thoroughly corrupt sport, where "races" are often nothing more than parades, I would expect them to lie like crazy. Doping is just something that professional cyclists do.

Why would one doper snitch off another? Why spit in the soup? Tyler Hamilton said that Lance was just doing what everybody else was doing. I believe him on that point. Floyd doesn't regret the doping, only the lying.

McQuaid and Verbruggen both got reelected, and McQuaid was Verbruggen's boy. This indicates that the federations loved the UCI's policies to whatever extent they favored Lance. Even after the Sysmexican money was reported, a very substantial minority of the federations voted for McQuaid.

What could the peloton do? Why would it do anything? It was fully complicit with Lance because it had no problems whatsoever with what Lance was doing?

Sure, Lance is a bad guy. Destroying Greg Lemond's bike business was nasty and his treatment of the Andreus was awful. None of his badnesses bothered the peloton, though. It simply didn't care. Awful champions are not rare. Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Kobe Bryant, and a universe of very bad champion professional football players (European and US) are proof of that. Lance is just another bad person who happens to be an athlete.

The "donkey" talk doesn't make any sense to me. Professional cycling is not a test of natural ability. It is a test of natural ability plus dope. The peloton is completely indifferent to whether a person is a "natural" champion or a "chemically enhanced" champion. Cycling has always been a doping game. It's never been about "purity" of any kind. It's about doing whatever it takes to win, with a Formula 1 / NASCAR attitude that if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

I want Lance to fall hard, not because he's the great corrupter of the peloton, but because he's the biggest and most visible symptom of just how sick professional cycling is. Bernard Hinault, notwithstanding.