Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Several times I posted that the treatment of tax was in alternate years. The OP was attempting to apply legal fees from 2012 in 2006 etc. You in fact responded and applied legal fees from 2012 to the 2006 windfall, now you've changed your mind?

I posted "in the given year" several times but you ignore each and every time which brings me to my previous post. You're trying to hard to make me wrong when the facts are obvious.

In the past you've also agreed with me that SCA made a poor bet. You posted as such. Why now the change?
 
thehog said:
...

The fact that everyone is trying so hard to make me wrong just shows that I'm actually right. Its not support of Armstrong. I've kicked him around plenty but we should at least acknowledge SCA part in putting the cash on the line to a doping fraud in a sport which has had significant doping problems for most of its history. Armstrong is fraud, a cheat and liar and SCA should have known better.

That is clearly your interpretation, as we continue to witness and puzzle over. Or, at least some are puzzling over it. Others have already accused you of killing decent dialog and turning posters away.

Extensive courtesy is being extended to you to discuss your poorly formulated assertions in a civilized manner.

But, let's make this simple.

You are wrong. And, on this subject you are wrong in pretty much absolutely everything you said. It is hard to find absolutes, I grant you, but the universality of your incorrectness is pretty amazing if not astounding.

This is why people are accusing you of trolling, as that would seem to be a legitimate explanation of this your quest.

Ok?

Now, can we move on?

Dave.
 
D-Queued said:
That is clearly your interpretation, as we continue to witness and puzzle over. Or, at least some are puzzling over it. Others have already accused you of killing decent dialog and turning posters away.

Extensive courtesy is being extended to you to discuss your poorly formulated assertions in a civilized manner.

But, let's make this simple.

You are wrong. And, on this subject you are wrong in pretty much absolutely everything you said. It is hard to find absolutes, I grant you, but the universality of your incorrectness is pretty amazing if not astounding.

This is why people are accusing you of trolling, as that would seem to be a legitimate explanation of this your quest.

Ok?

Now, can we move on?

Dave.


But it's not actually true though is it? The forum has been very active in the off season with very few bans.

People are not turning away they are still here.

And I'm not wrong. I enlightened you on how tax treats settlements, you engage and then you bow out when can't wrap your head around Armstong's gain. That's not my fault.

When you were wrong on Livestrong, I said don't worry about it; then accuse me of trolling? I extended you the courtesy when you posted made up information.

And again you've agreed with me in the past on SCA poor judgment and now you don't? I could post your post if you like?

Sorry, just not buying your approach here. It's personally driven rather than content driven.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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D-Queued said:
Very well stated. And, in general, I agree with you.

The point being debated is whether or not Lance has a pot of gold from the original settlement.

According to the forum rules, or at least their application, the poster making the assertion is allowed to defend that statement. And, to defend it no matter how truthful, knowledgeable, or even well thought out or well constructed their arguments may be.

It is quite possible, of course, that the original hypothesis is itself a troll and the defense is being laughably promoted at our collective expense.

But, Lance's self-worth, it having been built on the massive fraud that he perpetrated, and the actual disposition of that very large cash award are deserving, and even begging, for dialog.

Unfortunately, that translates such that even if the defense is poor and the assertions wild, we still have to put up with it.

NOTE: You did not provide a link or a quote for the IRS' actual position on reporting of non-taxable income. Nor did I respond to the post that your extract is from. However, it may be worth going through that post, point-by-point. Even if it is only to underscore the headline in this morning's USA Today:

Bad Advice costs billions.

Just because someone states something here doesn't mean that it is true or that the poster has the faintest inkling of what they are talking about.

Dave.

You are correct of course. I apologize for not providing a link: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4345.pdf
Examples abound of income not being reportable to the IRS simply for the purpose of deducting it from income later.

Your other points and criticisms are well taken, and completely on point. Perhaps I will work my comments into a manifesto post eventually. The Clinic has been a valuable resource for me. I'm trying to work through my thoughts on what makes it so valuable as well as what makes it so dangerous.

For years, ideas known as facts to readers and posters in The Clinic were libel and slander outside. The Clinic is the only place for a discussion of doping in these forums, yet it remains a place where people can argue the existence--as well as the relevance--of doping for riders, teams, and sports. The doping discussion is roped off so that discussions of races, racers, teams and events can continue on as if "The Clinic" issues don't exist. It is understandable why this denial is essential to the operation of a reasonable cycling forum.

No point, really. Just finding the relative moral frameworks of the forums an interesting case study. A forum elsewhere in which assume races are clean or at least the cleanliness is not up for discussion will move discussions of doping to The Clinic, but discussions of My Favorite is Not Doped and Doping is Irrelevant Anyway has to be included here rather than moved to the place where riders are not doped and doping is irrelevant anyway...

As I said, I do not envy the mods...
 
Feb 22, 2011
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thehog said:
But it's not actually true though is it? The forum has been very active in the off season with very few bans.

People are not turning away they are still here.

And I'm not wrong. I enlightened you on how tax treats settlements, you engage and then you bow out when can't wrap your head around Armstong's gain. That's not my fault.

When you were wrong on Livestrong, I said don't worry about it; then accuse me of trolling? I extended you the courtesy when you posted made up information.

And again you've agreed with me in the past on SCA poor judgment and now you don't? I could post your post if you like?

Sorry, just not buying your approach here. It's personally driven rather than content driven.

Just bottom line it for me. One number. Your estimation of the percentage of Lance Armstrong's current net worth represented by the sum of $10,000,000. Don't need your rationale or the factors you input into the equation, just the output. I would truly appreciate this.
 
skippythepinhead said:
Just bottom line it for me. One number. Your estimation of the percentage of Lance Armstrong's current net worth represented by the sum of $10,000,000. Don't need your rationale or the factors you input into the equation, just the output. I would truly appreciate this.

I wouldn't dare respond. Here we are all speculating about amounts and possible returns etc. and somehow you get accused of being "wrong". How does that work?

People just can't get past their initial bias. It wouldn't be fair for me to comment.

Good question, though.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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thehog said:
I wouldn't dare respond. Here we are all speculating about amounts and possible returns etc. and somehow you get accused of being "wrong". How does that work?

People just can't get past their initial bias. It wouldn't be fair for me to comment.

Good question, though.

I doubt anyone could possibly get it right, which is why discussing the impact of taxes on the original settlement is so absurd. I say it's about 1/7 of the wealth he'd be willing to cop to. $10M is going to hurt, which is why he tried to structure it rather than writing a check into an escrow account.

The minutiae of how the current sanctions relate to the original settlement wasn't an issue for the majority of the court because the decision involves sanctions, and whatever remained of the original settlement wasn't kept in a vacuum, it commingled with a whole bunch of other streams of ill-gotten income. If you think there's something here to "be right" about, then you are absolutely right. Enjoy it.
 
thehog said:
But it's not actually true though is it? The forum has been very active in the off season with very few bans.

People are not turning away they are still here.

And I'm not wrong. I enlightened you on how tax treats settlements, you engage and then you bow out when can't wrap your head around Armstong's gain. That's not my fault.

When you were wrong on Livestrong, I said don't worry about it; then accuse me of trolling? I extended you the courtesy when you posted made up information.

And again you've agreed with me in the past on SCA poor judgment and now you don't? I could post your post if you like?

Sorry, just not buying your approach here. It's personally driven rather than content driven.

Yes, I reported incorrectly or in a distorted manner about Lance's 'contributions' to Livestrong.

And, I didn't try and explain nor moderate that apology.

However, since you bring it up, here are a few questions:

- How much real cash did he ever provide to Livestrong? When?
- How much of his 'contributions' were effectively "in-kind" such as written off private plane costs to attend engagements where he pocketed the entire speaking fee?
- Within the "Armstrong Family" were there any contributions by people that were not an Armstrong? People that may have wanted or been requested to support the image?
- Aside from pocketing the engagement fees directly, how much money has Lance received from Demand Media directly and indirectly through Livestrong.com?

Once upon a time, in a thread a long, long time ago, there was an insightful analysis of the costs of his private jet and how much of those costs had been donated to Livestrong providing Lance with credit for donations while helping shield income/cost.

I may have misstated, but Lance has misinformed.

Dave.

P.S. You did not enlighten me about "how tax treats settlements". A statement which, notably, doesn't even make any sense. In actual fact, I provided you with the IRS references on the tax treatment for court settlements and awards, including on awards for costs legal fees where you were completely mistaken. Perhaps you should go back and review what you posted and the various citations I offered you for your education.

P.P.S. You are the one making or taking this personal. I am simply quoting your statements and providing citations for the actual situation.
 
skippythepinhead said:
I doubt anyone could possibly get it right, which is why discussing the impact of taxes on the original settlement is so absurd. I say it's about 1/7 of the wealth he'd be willing to cop to. $10M is going to hurt, which is why he tried to structure it rather than writing a check into an escrow account.

The minutiae of how the current sanctions relate to the original settlement wasn't an issue for the majority of the court because the decision involves sanctions, and whatever remained of the original settlement wasn't kept in a vacuum, it commingled with a whole bunch of other streams of ill-gotten income. If you think there's something here to "be right" about, then you are absolutely right. Enjoy it.

Thanks, which is what I stated from the original post from M.Index. That by ring fencing the SCA gain and subtracting somewhat unrelated expenses to drawn down the gain to a smaller amount was fraught with some many "what ifs" that it was pointless trying but fun to speculate.

I rightly pointed out that "all" income streams would need to be considered along with potential deductions in a "given year".

Some couldn't get past that... I was never trying to be right, I just didn't agree with the analysis of making $7.5m into $2.5m with a stroke of pen.

Forbes takes a looks at the large tax issues Armstrong faces. One point they have wrong is the possibility [he could] get a rebate from his 2006/07 taxes. The panel?s ruling is a sanction, not a modification of the award. so he will not get a rebate. Defrauding SCA was not been [sic] the smartest financial move. The contract with SCA cost almost $500,000. Lance paid Ferrari his cut first, $465,000, leaving him with about $6.5 million. He then paid taxes and agent fees, leaving him with $3 million. He also spent a lot in legal fees fighting this. Conservatively $500,000 but likely more. Lance may have pocketed $2,500,0000 8 years ago but he now owes $10,000,000 plus SCA has another lawsuit in the works asking for more.

thehog said:
I've not read he blog but it's a good idea.

Appears similar to what was posted here. There's no dispute Armstrong is a swine but those numbers don't add up.

The Ferrari payment and management fees would be due regardless of SCA paying or not paying. Those line items would be subtracted from total income not a one off one time payment from SCA.

SCA was not Armstrong's only source of income.

In accountancy terms you don't take one credit and select two debits and subtract. You withdraw those from total income not just one selected payment from SCA.

Tax is variable from the sense that it depends how much he was able to write off. I would think he was in the top end so the SCA payment would most likely be at the highest rate but we don't actually know that.

I'm not trying to start a posting war here so please don't flame me, I'm just cleaning up what is fairly rudimentary accountancy for all of us not just Armstrong.

You can't conclude a $2.5m sum without considering total income.
 
MarkvW said:
Speculation stacked on speculation...stacked on even more speculation!

<sigh> We tried, though. Didn't we?

Moving on.

To more speculation.

CIRC is just around the corner.

Word has it that Lance did testify.

Speculation:

1. Questions were filtered, edited, and/or even compiled by his legal team

2. CIRC recognized that

3. CIRC will not recommend any moderation of his ban

That speculation seems pretty safe.

Other thoughts? Opposing views?

Dave.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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D-Queued said:
<sigh> We tried, though. Didn't we?

Moving on.

To more speculation.

CIRC is just around the corner.

Word has it that Lance did testify.

Speculation:

1. Questions were filtered, edited, and/or even compiled by his legal team

2. CIRC recognized that

3. CIRC will not recommend any moderation of his ban

That speculation seems pretty safe.

Other thoughts? Opposing views?

Dave.

Yes, it is a shame we can't have the real conversation about Armstrong's debts/assets. I'd really love to have some clarity on Livestrong.org/Livestrong.com. Armstrong's actual "wages of sin" represent such a huge ongoing issue.

I don't know enough to oppose your view regarding Lance/circ, but even if Tim Herman composed every word of every question at $750/hour in consultation with his client, I speculate that Lance lied in his answers.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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thehog said:
Sorry, just not buying your approach here. It's personally driven rather than content driven.

Aaaannnnd you just can't help yourself.

I never thought or expected there might be a day where I'd miss Polish.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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D-Queued said:
In deference to Skippy, because he/she took the time to form an incredibly well thought out post, it may be worth reviewing Skippy's cited example in a point-by-point form:



Please note that all of the Numbered items in the above quoted post are wholly or partially incorrect. Thus, readers of this post can simply stop here and do not need to consider the explanations and clarifications on these items that are provided below.


---



1. "The IRS expects you to declare all income, whether taxable or not."

Incorrect, as highlighted by Skippy above.

From IRS Publication 525:

"Income that is taxable must be reported on your return and is subject to tax. Income that is nontaxable may have to be shown on your tax return but is not taxable..."

In other words, depending on the nature of the income and the tax status of the person, certain income may not have to be declared. There are many types of such income, and Publication 525 can be referenced to understand these in greater detail.

2. "So in this case the $2.5m for costs would be declared but not taxed."

As noted in a previous post above, the $2.5m must be declared as income.

Whether and how much tax is applied on that $2.5m depends on the amount and nature of "allowable" expenses that may offset that income in whole or in part as well as the tax status of the individual reporting the income and how and when the costs were incurred and reported as well as to what extent the IRS allows year-over-year restatements of income, etc.

It is possible that allowable costs actually exceeded the $2.5m award, for example. In which case the net impact on the individual would be a tax benefit that could be applied to other income.

3. "he would declare the gain as income and he would also ask for the deduction of the $1m legal fees paid."

Yes, he would declare the $1m in the example as income in the year it was received, even if he had not yet deposited it.

With respect to the legal fees, he would need to provide the appropriate tax schedule to accompany his Return that would list the various expenses along with accompanying receipts. The IRS would review that schedule, and the receipts, to determine if they were eligible expenses. If eligible, they would be applied 'above the line' to the pre-tax income which may or may not include the $1m in the example.

4. "The IRS would allow the $1m income not to be taxed as its restores the costs"

The IRS does not do this kind of matching and really doesn't care about whether anyone restores their costs. The amount of the eligible expenses may exactly offset the income, or not. Eligibility of the declared expenses will be determined by the IRS.

5. "he shouldn't have had to pay"

The IRS does not make moral judgments nor do they make legal judgments, and really doesn't care about whether he should have received a settlement or not. They only care about net taxable income.

6. "The IRS however would not then provide the deduction as the income wasn't actually received in terms of a gain"

Ok, trying to avoid anything inflammatory as this statement does appear very confusing.

As discussed in previous posts, and again here taxable income must be reported. The net income upon which tax is due can be reduced through the application of allowable expenses.

7. "if Armstrong has to pay $10m in the recent hearing as a sanction and has already paid tax on the $5m, he doesn't get a credit for what ha been paid"

Armstrong should already have been 'credited' for the $5m in income (less any allowable expenses), assuming that he reported this correctly. The $10m sanction will be treated as a separate matter. Please refer to previous posts above from a variety of different Forum members for insightful discussions about the $10m.

8. "then does SCA have to pay tax? You would say no"

No, as noted above, I would say yes. Yes, the SCA would have to report this as taxable income. Only if their allowable expenses on this matter matched or exceeded the $10m would they not have any tax liability.

9. "because they gave up the $5m years ago"

These are separate matters, reported in separate tax years.

10. "but $10m would be a gain from the $7.5"

Separate matters, reported in separate tax years.

11. "and its a sanction rather than an award"

The IRS does not make moral judgments nor do they make legal judgments.

Dave.



You have the patience of job.
 
D-Queued said:
Yes, I reported incorrectly or in a distorted manner about Lance's 'contributions' to Livestrong.

I may have misstated, but Lance has misinformed.

No, you just made it up. You wrote "FACT", there's no coloring it any other way. It's black & white. You said "Fact Armstrong never donated to his own charity", you were comparing him to LeMond who had to get Trek to donate for him!

You were wrong, very wrong. And still trying to pin your own error on Armstrong.

Let it go, son. Let it go. You'll drive people away from the forum, LOL! :rolleyes:

Just to remind you:

Fact:
Lance has never made a donation to his charity - not even indirectly.

and for good measure you wrong again about LeMond's settlement:

Fact:
Greg didn't collect anything from Trek.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1632937&postcount=2795

You do like to point fingers, don't you? and make stuff up then accuse others of being wrong and lying. That's not very good form.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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thehog said:
No, you just made it up. You wrote "FACT", there's no coloring it any other way. It's black & white. You said "Fact Armstrong never donated to his own charity", you were comparing him to LeMond who had to get Trek to donate for him!

You were wrong, very wrong. And still trying to pin your own error on Armstrong.

Let it go, son. Let it go. You'll drive people away from the forum, LOL! :rolleyes:

Just to remind you:



and for good measure you wrong again about LeMond's settlement:



http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1632937&postcount=2795

You do like to point fingers, don't you? and make stuff up then accuse others of being wrong and lying. That's not very good form.

Ah, I see now
internet-troll.jpg
 
May 27, 2012
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"You fools are in a troll echelon"--Some member here, I can't remember who.

There was even an accompanying picture with it...wish I could find it.
 
D-Queued said:

CIRC is just around the corner.

Word has it that Lance did testify.

Speculation:

1. Questions were filtered, edited, and/or even compiled by his legal team.

2. CIRC recognized that.

3. CIRC will not recommend any moderation of his ban.

That speculation seems pretty safe.

Other thoughts? Opposing views?

Dave.

The process with the CIRC has run its' course. Armstrong will never tell the truth. Going in all lawyered up speaks volumes about how he approaches every single one of these situations, even when he knows he's going to lose.

He either has to be in control or he'll refuse to play along. He is truly out of his mind.

He won' get a reduction of his ban and good for him on that. He wants it on his own terms, and more than anything, his control freak nature will not allow for any other scenario to play out.

His hatred of Travis Tygart will preclude him for going to the one man who could possible help him, but my guess is if he does go to the USADA hat in hand for the sake of seeking a reduction, it will be years down the road when it's too late and when the importance and relevance of the information he'll have to offer has expired.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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ChewbaccaD said:
"You fools are in a troll echelon"--Some member here, I can't remember who.

There was even an accompanying picture with it...wish I could find it.

It was Netserk

freds_cipo.jpg
 
We can't expect Lance to say anything juicy until after SCA & USPS conclude.

But I am waiting for his book to come out! I can't wait to read about how he used his "influence" to get the Department of Justice to terminate his criminal investigation!

A tell-all book from such a nefarious mastermind would be really insightful. Lance could call it: "It's not about the Rules."