Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies


What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Roche-approuve-armstrong/545589

I don't know if the link will work, but in l'Equipe today, Stephen Roach supported Wonderboy doing the TdF one day ahead thing. "It's for a good cause. He didn't kill anybody". I used to like Roach. No mas. His stance over the years raises questions about his own cleanliness, no doubt his once GT contender now domestique son was loaded, simply put, he's part of the problem.

As usual I think posters give dopers too much credit. Miggy doesn't know to fly under the radar. He's done stupid things like come out and defend Armstrong even after USADA. He's just not particularly sought after by the British press so he isn't put on the spot, while the Spanish press just uses him to promote races.


Yeah, Roche is a part of the problem too, sadly. Roche is like Miggy in a sense that EVERYONE knows he's a doper, but refuses to answer any questions about it. At least Miggy knows to stay away and fly under the radar, and no one will mess with him. Roche can't seem to do that & is a POS too, f&^% him. A doper, supporting other dopers, great huh?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies


What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

Yes, pretty much. Wiesel is The King and everything seems to flow through him.

Also though, the mismanagement of the sport just drives most money away from the sport while USAC/UCI keep demanding more of a team's tiny budget.

Net result of the recent changes to the structure of racing worldwide is a net loss on all counts. Fewer races, fewer sponsors, fewer riders paid.

A guy that the sport doesn't want around leaving alongside others the sport is indifferent about is good.

Also though, the only growth in revenue in cycling is outside the UCI, basically being a fun ride, non-uci race promoter. So... Lots of forces at work, not just USAC.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies

What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

Hi Robbie,

No argument. But, if you want to race what do you do? We need a 'comments' section on race entry and waiver forms.

Cyclists still dope. They don't want to get caught. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers run Fondos and other events. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers give color commentary at races. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers grow old and coach other cyclists. They don't want to talk about doping. Or, not in the open at least.

There are still those in power that doped, conspired with dopers, or facilitated doping even if not overtly or directly but purely through inaction.

If one held a Betsy Andreu appreciation night, as richly desered as it might be, then the discussions would probably focus on Lance and the doping and not on cornering, sprinting, climbing some big mountain, reminiscing about the good old days, etc. If Frankie came out, would anyone ask him about that Champs Elysees finish? Or, would there be a bunch of awkward silence with maybe a thought or two about Lance questions, most probably not even asking them, or maybe a thought on Kyle Rees? Or, would there always be the risk of someone asking pointed questions that attempted to blame them both for the negative impact of Lance?

Good dialog involves humor, and doping in cycling isn't Cheech and Chong. Its just awkward, and it gets mean-spirited pretty quickly.

Where are people's heads really at?

Just the other day someone said to me that they hoped and expected Lance would get his ban reduced.

I chose my words carefully and simply asked what would that accomplish?

But, such are the limitations of posting anonymously.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

[quote="The Hitch
As usual I think posters give dopers too much credit. Miggy doesn't know to fly under the radar. He's done stupid things like come out and defend Armstrong even after USADA. He's just not particularly sought after by the British press so he isn't put on the spot, while the Spanish press just uses him to promote races.

[/quote]


He's not "sought after" because he does't give out information. He's been under the radar for many years, no interviews, no nothing, why? because whenever he's asked about doping, he doesn't say much. EVERYONE knows he doped, they just stopped asking him about it, or bringing it up to him, because he changes the subject. if it weren't for the SOL, Big Mig would be in deep trouble IMO.

 

[TrackCynic]

I've almost given up on this sport ever cleaning up its act. There are just too many characters involved, from top to bottom, who have heavy doping involvement. Armstrong actually had a chance to play a significant part in pulling down this house of cards, including USAC involvement, the Millionaire's Club, and coaches who "enabled" him. But, he decided to do zilch - they are all of the hook.

BTW, as a great example of this problem, one of the best-know coaches of juniors in our area is one of the very same guys who thought blood doping was OK just because no federation had banned it yet. Just "do what it takes", even if it's morally and potentially medically totally wrong: http://www.nitz-cycling.com/index.html

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

I've almost given up on this sport ever cleaning up its act.

Don't give up. Make some changes.

http://nabra.us/
http://www.ambikerace.com/

Both are viable federations. It's a matter of getting consumers and promoters out of their bad habit of supporting USAC. There's plenty to do without dealing with USAC if you want to make some improvements to the sport!

 

[TrackCynic]

Re: Re:

I've almost given up on this sport ever cleaning up its act.

Don't give up. Make some changes.

http://nabra.us/
http://www.ambikerace.com/

Both are viable federations. It's a matter of getting consumers and promoters out of their bad habit of supporting USAC. There's plenty to do without dealing with USAC if you want to make some improvements to the sport!

This can only happen if the promoters are at the core of it. USAC members are co-erced into being members and "support" USAC purely because the promoters continue to force people have a USAC license. There are VERY few people I know would ever pay for a USAC license if it wasn't for the racing requirements set by promoters.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies

What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

Hi Robbie,

No argument. But, if you want to race what do you do? We need a 'comments' section on race entry and waiver forms.

Cyclists still dope. They don't want to get caught. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers run Fondos and other events. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers give color commentary at races. They don't want to talk about doping.

Dopers grow old and coach other cyclists. They don't want to talk about doping. Or, not in the open at least.

There are still those in power that doped, conspired with dopers, or facilitated doping even if not overtly or directly but purely through inaction.

If one held a Betsy Andreu appreciation night, as richly desered as it might be, then the discussions would probably focus on Lance and the doping and not on cornering, sprinting, climbing some big mountain, reminiscing about the good old days, etc. If Frankie came out, would anyone ask him about that Champs Elysees finish? Or, would there be a bunch of awkward silence with maybe a thought or two about Lance questions, most probably not even asking them, or maybe a thought on Kyle Rees? Or, would there always be the risk of someone asking pointed questions that attempted to blame them both for the negative impact of Lance?

Good dialog involves humor, and doping in cycling isn't Cheech and Chong. Its just awkward, and it gets mean-spirited pretty quickly.

Where are people's heads really at?

Just the other day someone said to me that they hoped and expected Lance would get his ban reduced.

I chose my words carefully and simply asked what would that accomplish?

But, such are the limitations of posting anonymously.

Dave.

Really good observations Dave. I hear what you say when I see Axel Merckx running a Grand Fondo in Kelowna, when no one wants to discuss doping at our local crit series, when Hincapie runs a development team, when Wiesel runs US Cycling and so on and so on and so on. What your observations tell us is that cycling is still not prepared to confront the doping. If a person cannot have a comfortable anti-doping conversation at a cycling event the sport is rotten from the core out.

IMO the attitude at cycling events ought to be - "I hope we caught or will catch all the cheating ba$1ards at this race!" When the conversation gets to that level maybe we have turned the corner.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Really good observations Dave. I hear what you say when I see Axel Merckx running a Grand Fondo in Kelowna, when no one wants to discuss doping at our local crit series, when Hincapie runs a development team, when Wiesel runs US Cycling and so on and so on and so on. What your observations tell us is that cycling is still not prepared to confront the doping. If a person cannot have a comfortable anti-doping conversation at a cycling event the sport is rotten from the core out.

IMO the attitude at cycling events ought to be - "I hope we caught or will catch all the cheating ba$1ards at this race!" When the conversation gets to that level maybe we have turned the corner.[/quote]

You put it in a nutshell: the beast is feeding itself. Past dopers become TV guys, DS, stay involved, and as long as it remains the same, the outcome will remain the same. It's impossible to really clean up the "milieu" (in French it means both environment and mafia BTW) by fear of lawsuits, guys losing their jobs without solid proof/evidence. All have an interest, make a living, which makes the use of the word omerta so pertinent. And although I have read pros and many cons about it, I'm still rooting for Lemond to run for UCI prez. Change can only come from within. Only someone with his credibility as a rider, the respect, can force the changes. The Badger could have been that guy: he did some cortisone to his bad knee, but was for the most part clean. His LBL in '79 or '80 was balls: no dope could have helped him. Instead, he gives away stuffed lions

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I've almost given up on this sport ever cleaning up its act.

Don't give up. Make some changes.

http://nabra.us/
http://www.ambikerace.com/

Both are viable federations. It's a matter of getting consumers and promoters out of their bad habit of supporting USAC. There's plenty to do without dealing with USAC if you want to make some improvements to the sport!

This can only happen if the promoters are at the core of it. USAC members are co-erced into being members and "support" USAC purely because the promoters continue to force people have a USAC license. There are VERY few people I know would ever pay for a USAC license if it wasn't for the racing requirements set by promoters.

USAC isn't a great deal for most promoters, but riders show up. It's that simple. Get 100 riders to pre register outside USAC and a half smart promoter will stop buying from USAC. Seriously. It's that easy. But people are creatures of habit.

Change the habit. You can do it.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

...

Really good observations Dave. I hear what you say when I see Axel Merckx running a Grand Fondo in Kelowna, when no one wants to discuss doping at our local crit series, when Hincapie runs a development team, when Wiesel runs US Cycling and so on and so on and so on. What your observations tell us is that cycling is still not prepared to confront the doping. If a person cannot have a comfortable anti-doping conversation at a cycling event the sport is rotten from the core out.

IMO the attitude at cycling events ought to be - "I hope we caught or will catch all the cheating ba$1ards at this race!" When the conversation gets to that level maybe we have turned the corner.

I hear you, and keep trying.

Wouldn't it be great to have a Betsy appreciation night! Can you imagine?

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

in the positive if Lance got his ban quashed, he can give triathlon a good name

 

[mewmewmew13]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies


What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

No support from the cycling world at all I think. Most pros afraid to alienate themselves to current system or too weak to speak up.
Their life has not been easy. "not fair" as Lance would whine...

 

[Merckx index]

Fellow cancer survivor's day with LA:

[Dr.] Einhorn, 72, had long ago turned the tables on testicular cancer, concocting drugs that turned an insidious disease into one of the most curable; a personal favor was the least he could ask. In late February, Armstrong and I flew up together from Austin to Indianapolis, participants Nos. 198 and 199 in the Platinum Study, named for the key element in the compound Einhorn had seized upon to stymie our cancers.

on the wall of the waiting room at the Indiana University cancer pavilion, in defiance of the world’s change of heart regarding the former champion, you can still find framed Lance Armstrong paraphernalia: covers from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED during his Tour triumphs and a signed bicycle jersey. This oncology unit, where Armstrong once had been near death, is, curiously, now a sanctuary, one of the last places on earth where the cloud that follows him has failed to cast its shadow.

"How’d you do on the pulse rate?" Armstrong asked as he slid into the chair next to me. The last time he had been here he was at his bed-ridden sickest, as doctors killed off his cancer through Einhorn’s chemo infusions.
“Forty-nine.” I was pleased—60 is really good.
“Not bad.” He gave a slight nod of the head and a purse of the lips.
"So how’d you do?"
He flashed a grin: "Forty-one."

The way his lie had overshadowed his cancer work irked Lance. In the conversation on the flight up to Indianapolis the previous afternoon, he noted that the media now called him "disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong"; keeping score in a rogues’ gallery, he observed that a recent story about how Roger Clemens was tutoring his college-aged son in pitching failed to describe him as a "disgraced baseball player." "And he gave how much back?" asked Armstrong. And then he mouthed the word: "Zero." (According to a 2010 New York Times article the Roger Clemens Foundation has raised more than $1 million to aid children's educational and athletic organizations.)

He posts his workout times on Strava…Most of [the comments] were supportive, but he came across one, posted by a guy in Switzerland, that said "Your [sic] not yet done accounting for the past." He smiled and flicked his middle finger at the screen.

“You don’t do all this good finishing 26 or 27th,” Einhorn said, referring to the massive amounts of money Armstrong had steered toward cancer research... "And all this attention: It wasn’t like he punched his girlfriend."

Now, at the Indianapolis airport, Armstrong snagged the last standby seat on an American Airlines flight back home: 16E, a middle seat in coach…I pictured Lance, once arguably the most famous person on the planet, squeezed in between two strangers, his “Mellow” baseball cap pulled low, watching [Whiplash].

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2015/04/0 ... er-indiana

 

[Cycle Chic]

He's being punished way more than jail time would have done...being persona non gratis.

 

[heart_attack_man]

Re:

Fellow cancer survivor's day with LA:

"How’d you do on the pulse rate?" Armstrong asked as he slid into the chair next to me. The last time he had been here he was at his bed-ridden sickest, as doctors killed off his cancer through Einhorn’s chemo infusions.
“Forty-nine.” I was pleased—60 is really good.
“Not bad.” He gave a slight nod of the head and a purse of the lips.
"So how’d you do?"
He flashed a grin: "Forty-one."

Azz-hat...

“You don’t do all this good finishing 26 or 27th,” Einhorn said, referring to the massive amounts of money Armstrong had steered toward cancer research... "And all this attention: It wasn’t like he punched his girlfriend."

Cancer Research? I thought it was cancer "awareness"... You know - because no one knows about Cancer.

 

[Bosco10]

Re: Re:

Fellow cancer survivor's day with LA:

"How’d you do on the pulse rate?" Armstrong asked as he slid into the chair next to me. The last time he had been here he was at his bed-ridden sickest, as doctors killed off his cancer through Einhorn’s chemo infusions.
“Forty-nine.” I was pleased—60 is really good.
“Not bad.” He gave a slight nod of the head and a purse of the lips.
"So how’d you do?"
He flashed a grin: "Forty-one."

Azz-hat...

“You don’t do all this good finishing 26 or 27th,” Einhorn said, referring to the massive amounts of money Armstrong had steered toward cancer research... "And all this attention: It wasn’t like he punched his girlfriend."

Cancer Research? I thought it was cancer "awareness"... You know - because no one knows about Cancer.

Well, it takes a fair amount of awarene$$ to crew, fuel and maintain a Gulfstream Aerospace G-IV private jet.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Betsy telling WADA and everyone else, how big of a POT Wonderboy is. Good read, and she's 100% right. A huge win for Andreu Strategies


What is hard to understand is her comment that she and Frankie are still persona non grata in American cycling. I was under the impression that Betsy and Frankie had a lot of support. If they don't it is a pretty poor reflection on the US cycling fraternity and probably a fraternity not worth belonging to!

We all know USADA was an Andreu Strategies ploy to wrest control of the federation of such a well known and well regarded sport from Thom Wiesel.

Seriously, Thom is okay with doping and directs resources in the American sport accordingly. There's less of everything every year at the Continental level and USACDF is okay with that too. They have a government granted monopoly and permanent funding from the IOC to keep their nonsense going.

As an example, USACDF published the selection criteria for $10,000/yr funding to track riders. The athlete agrees to participate in events USACDF chooses, no clue how the athlete will pay. The best part: the athlete has to go from nationally competitive to internationally competitive in three years. or lose 10,000/yr funding. Three years. Think about it.

Sadly, Frankie needs to move on. As long as guys like Carmichael, Och, Plant, Wiesel and his mancrush Armstrong are around guys like Frankie are not welcome.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What's the deal people? We knew this was coming, yet no one posted the link?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cy ... /25534877/

Knaggs and Wiesel trying to play dumb and apparently the Feds aren't going for it. That's going to be rich stuff if it ever sees the light of day.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/261404116/Refuse-to-Settle

Thank you David Walsh for posting the links!

 

[stevie47]

Help me out here. Floyd wants to settle with Armstrong/CES? Is this not huge have I missed something?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

Help me out here. Floyd wants to settle with Armstrong/CES? Is this not huge have I missed something?

#1 I am not a lawyer.
It reads like there was an attempt to get Weisel and Knaggs out of legal troubles with a cash settlement with Landis separately from the Qui Tam. But, the Feds said "No" to the deal because Weisel and Knaggs appear to be very reluctant witnesses for the Qui Tam case.

This looks good to me. Since Weisel and Knaggs are part of the braintrust behind the entire scam, the feds appear to be keeping some pressure on Weisel and Knaggs to cooperate.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Help me out here. Floyd wants to settle with Armstrong/CES? Is this not huge have I missed something?

#1 I am not a lawyer.
It reads like there was an attempt to get Weisel and Knaggs out of legal troubles with a cash settlement with Landis separately from the Qui Tam. But, the Feds said "No" to the deal because Weisel and Knaggs appear to be very reluctant witnesses for the Qui Tam case.

This looks good to me. Since Weisel and Knaggs are part of the braintrust behind the entire scam, the feds appear to be keeping some pressure on Weisel and Knaggs to cooperate.

but does it mean Floyd misses out on some quick and secure cash?
The Qui Tam case still has has an open ending, right? If it's lost, Floyd ends up with nothing (?).

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

but does it mean Floyd misses out on some quick and secure cash?
The Qui Tam case still has has an open ending, right? If it's lost, Floyd ends up with nothing (?).

Already out of my legal depth.

It would have been quick cash but only a symbolic amount.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Re: Re:

Help me out here. Floyd wants to settle with Armstrong/CES? Is this not huge have I missed something?

#1 I am not a lawyer.
It reads like there was an attempt to get Weisel and Knaggs out of legal troubles with a cash settlement with Landis separately from the Qui Tam. But, the Feds said "No" to the deal because Weisel and Knaggs appear to be very reluctant witnesses for the Qui Tam case.

This looks good to me. Since Weisel and Knaggs are part of the braintrust behind the entire scam, the feds appear to be keeping some pressure on Weisel and Knaggs to cooperate.

but does it mean Floyd misses out on some quick and secure cash?
The Qui Tam case still has has an open ending, right? If it's lost, Floyd ends up with nothing (?).

No it's not bad for Floyd. It draws these fatcats back into the spotlight.
Floyd didn't lose what he wasn't going for in the first place...