Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[doperhopper]

Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

The only problem is that he started with his "confessions" only after being hit by the trials, and now he's suddenly "alive" and active when hit by that 100 million megatrial.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

The only problem is that he started with his "confessions" only after being hit by the trials, and now he's suddenly "alive" and active when hit by that 100 million megatrial.

What would you do for example?
Did anyone confess before it was certain (to fall) anyway? Zabel was worse with his (first) half confession. Even Ulle only confessed inch by inch... LA otoh showed some guts by going on TV, risking it all. He could have also gone on his old ways. There was no hard evidence, but the 6 Epo positives from 1999.

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

The only problem is that he started with his "confessions" only after being hit by the trials, and now he's suddenly "alive" and active when hit by that 100 million megatrial.

There are very few spontaneous confessions. Even Simeoni confessed after he was busted. I've never liked Armstrong as a rider, but using him as a scapegoat is not fair.
If you read antdoping experts like Sandro Donati, they say clearly the athlete is just a (weak) link of the chain and charge everything on the shoulders of the athlete is just a way for the establishment to keep doing the same.

 

[franic]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

"Why am I not welcome? Because I'm a doper? If that were the rule, the caravan would almost be empty," Armstrong said.
"I don't mean the riders in this Tour, but in the press room, the commentary boxes, team cars.
"We all rode in an unfortunate era. But if you're going to apply a standard it has to be universal."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/16/sport/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france/

More excuses, more lies and desperation to regain some media status. It's interesting that he at least appears to acknowledge his status as the Pete Rose of cycling.

Maybe. For sure he said something true

No, he gave his narcissistic version of the truth. Imagine this: a friend takes care of your house while you are away. When you return you notice that all the best bottles of wine are missing from your cellar. When confronted the friend looks sheepish and mumbles a few excuses. Doesn't really admit anything but sort-of apologizes. Takes you out to dinner the following week for "no reason".

Now imagine a different sort of friend. The one that when confronted starts yelling at you. Hurling abusive insults. Storms out and in pure spite knocks over a lamp before slamming the door. When you later see photos on Facebook of him pouring a couple of ladies a glass of said wine, he says "Yeah, sorry. But that other guy did it too. Lighten up".

Which friend are you going to invite back into your house? Jalabert is welcome to comment on racing. Armstrong is not welcome. Period.

John Swanson

Little parables apart, I said that maybe he said a lot of lies, but it's true that the whole Tour De France circus is full of dopers and ex dopers. Armstrong was cocky, but for instance Ivan Basso said to Simeoni he was a testa di cazzo and has never admitted the use of doing. This looks like double standards to me

 

[Benotti69]

I am not going to forgive Armstrong for his cancer fraud charity. Not going to forgive him for being a bully in pro cycling and picking on anyone who told the truth. Not going to forgive him using cancer as a shield to steal over 100million$. Wish the media would boycott Armstrong till he decides to really tell the truth about Weisel, Stapleton, Amgen, Verbruggen, McQuaid, ASO et al. This myth that he was only doing what everyone else was doing, yeah right, sorry more lies.

 

[Saint Unix]

Lance deserves every bit of crap he got. The problem is that Ullrich, Mayo, Beloki, Basso and all the others haven't got nearly enough. Lance took the whole blame for the state of pro cycling from '99 to '05 when there were dozens of other riders who should have been strung up alongside him.

Unfair? Yes, but not on Lance. Just on those who got away far too easily just because they didn't win.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

Lance deserves every bit of crap he got. The problem is that Ullrich, Mayo, Beloki, Basso and all the others haven't got nearly enough. Lance took the whole blame for the state of pro cycling from '99 to '05 when there were dozens of other riders who should have been strung up alongside him.

Unfair? Yes, but not on Lance. Just on those who got away far too easily just because they didn't win.

Armstrong is just the fall guy, and he is an a - hole, or was. People really should move on. Let it go, Valverde could.

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

I am not going to forgive Armstrong for his cancer fraud charity. Not going to forgive him for being a bully in pro cycling and picking on anyone who told the truth. Not going to forgive him using cancer as a shield to steal over 100million$. Wish the media would boycott Armstrong till he decides to really tell the truth about Weisel, Stapleton, Amgen, Verbruggen, McQuaid, ASO et al. This myth that he was only doing what everyone else was doing, yeah right, sorry more lies.

Your hate pathology is more interesting than Lance's character foibles, but you certainly have the right to behave any way you wish. You seem like a bright guy and therefore see the writing on the wall in Rodez. To you, Lance is a cockroach ... a morphic that bodes well for him outlasting a lot of detractors. Clinic 12 .... gone! Hater eight .... gone! Just a few sweepers like you around now singing an old song that's losing its jingo with the cycling public at large. I don't defend Lance for his past behaviors, but the desperate flogging on here says more about the flogger's twitchy pathology than the morality of antidoping.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

WADA or whoever call it is now... They shall let LA ride. He paid, he´ll lose more, he talked. He is wayyy ahead of others. WADA or whoever call it is now, should use all their energy trying to catch current dopers. Enough work to do...

 

[mikez]

Re:

WADA or whoever call it is now... They shall let LA ride. He paid, he´ll lose more, he talked. He is wayyy ahead of others. WADA or whoever call it is now, should use all their energy trying to catch current dopers. Enough work to do...

Some people just need to have other people to hate and judge because they need to feel someone is lower than they are. 'At least I'm not like ______". The pathological hatred of Armstrong shown in the clinic - a man I'd guess 99% of the posters here have never met - is fascinating and a little sad at the same time. So many experts! So many who are qualified to be judge, jury and executioner!

Personally, I'm glad Armstrong has been caught in his institutional lies, mostly because it offers some hope that there will be and are enough changes to the sport, both regulatory and culture that it has and will become "cleaner". That said, it's time to move on and let the man be. He was the biggest trophy in the pond, but he's far from responsible for everything that ails the sport. If he want to participate in a charity ride , so what? Big deal. Life is too short to fill your life with negativity and hate. It's not healthy, it just grows and gnaws on itself.

 

[M Sport]

Re: Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

The only problem is that he started with his "confessions" only after being hit by the trials, and now he's suddenly "alive" and active when hit by that 100 million megatrial.

What would you do for example?
Did anyone confess before it was certain (to fall) anyway? Zabel was worse with his (first) half confession. Even Ulle only confessed inch by inch... LA otoh showed some guts by going on TV, risking it all. He could have also gone on his old ways. There was no hard evidence, but the 6 Epo positives from 1999.

Only one rider ever. Stephen Swart. Not one of the big star names, but he was the only one to come clean with no other pressure. Some will say Frankie but that's not correct. He knew his name was coming out as a result of the SCA testimony.

 

[wendybnt]

I think it is good that Armstrong is still around making people feel uncomfortable.

His legacy is still as active as ever, and he needs to stick around to remind us that little seems to have changed.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

WADA or whoever call it is now... They shall let LA ride. He paid, he´ll lose more, he talked. He is wayyy ahead of others. WADA or whoever call it is now, should use all their energy trying to catch current dopers. Enough work to do...

Some people just need to have other people to hate and judge because they need to feel someone is lower than they are. 'At least I'm not like ______". The pathological hatred of Armstrong shown in the clinic - a man I'd guess 99% of the posters here have never met - is fascinating and a little sad at the same time. So many experts! So many who are qualified to be judge, jury and executioner!

Personally, I'm glad Armstrong has been caught in his institutional lies, mostly because it offers some hope that there will be and are enough changes to the sport, both regulatory and culture that it has and will become "cleaner". That said, it's time to move on and let the man be. He was the biggest trophy in the pond, but he's far from responsible for everything that ails the sport. If he want to participate in a charity ride , so what? Big deal. Life is too short to fill your life with negativity and hate. It's not healthy, it just grows and gnaws on itself.

Glad too that he was caught, waited 10+ years for that to happen, as said: I really hated him. But since he came forward, and payed/pays his dues, it shall be enough. Basically life-time ban, while others still run teams or even still ride (see AC, Valv-Piti for example)?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

The only problem is that he started with his "confessions" only after being hit by the trials, and now he's suddenly "alive" and active when hit by that 100 million megatrial.

What would you do for example?
Did anyone confess before it was certain (to fall) anyway? Zabel was worse with his (first) half confession. Even Ulle only confessed inch by inch... LA otoh showed some guts by going on TV, risking it all. He could have also gone on his old ways. There was no hard evidence, but the 6 Epo positives from 1999.

Only one rider ever. Stephen Swart. Not one of the big star names, but he was the only one to come clean with no other pressure. Some will say Frankie but that's not correct. He knew his name was coming out as a result of the SCA testimony.

1+ ... Swart, yeah, the only one...

 

[Benotti69]

Swart only came clean about his own doping due to his son taking up racing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

LA has a point, or two... heck, no, lots more... He said, once starting the lie, there was no way out of it. Makes perfect sense. I forgave him since long. 90% of people in his position would have done the same (he was on constant self defense mode, protecting his wealth), may not as rude, but close to...
And I hated him, called him a psychopath (may he is, don´t know). Anyway, he is far from his arrogant past.

Actually, the rules never applied to Lance. So quite a few lies told to serve the perception he's exceptional from the very beginning. It was just more of the same as the doping went into high gear.

BTW, lots of "evidence" he was doping. The federations wouldn't sanction him prior to WADA and including WADA.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't view Lance in any way as "unique." He's much closer to the 'dumb as a box of rocks' category. Lance profited because he was surrounded by a team of talented and unscrupulous people who exploited his willingness to do anything to dominate others.

Lance and his team were far better at organized cheating than anyone else. Every contender was cheating, I believe. They just weren't doing it as well as Lance and his team.

If Lance was 'unique and the worst,' then he is only 'unique and the worst' until the next cyclist/team arrives to exploit the same pro cycling opportunities that Lance and his team did. Anybody who thinks that isn't possible need only turn on their TV!

 

[M Sport]

Re:

Swart only came clean about his own doping due to his son taking up racing.

One of the reasons was his son was becoming interested in cycling (son was about 7 years old), others were he thought cycling was in a bad state, and he didn't want the drugs issue playing on his conscience in years to come. There was no external factor or pressure or imminent bust that meant Swart had to come clean, he just decided to do it.

 

[franic]

http://theconversation.com/has-lance-armstrongs-impact-in-cycling-and-beyond-been-a-net-positive-44886

Armstrong’s presence raises important questions

I am not making a case for Lance Armstrong’s forgiveness – Armstrong cheated the sport and cycling fans by doping, and the negative impact of that should not be forgotten, nor diluted by sentiment or time.

But I am asking an important question for cycling: How should we think about Lance Armstrong and his impact upon cycling (and beyond), if we reflect consistently and honestly about how we treat others who have doped and cheated the sport?

Even though many of us may want to forget about Lance Armstrong, and wish he would just go away. His public posts on social media about his career and current Tour riders, and recent appearance on a charity ride at the 2015 Tour de France suggests this is very unlikely.

Despite my strong opposition to doping in cycling, the answer to the question of what Armstrong’s net impact has been doesn’t look black and white to me. It’s not as simple as saying Lance Armstrong is a bad person, so let’s move on.

To be honest, I would have no problem at all with deleting Lance Armstrong from the cycling history books. I’d be happy if he was never heard of again in cycling. But I also believe that if we’re going to do that, to be consistent we should do the same with all the other dopers and cheats in this sport.

Of course, that’s not going to happen any time soon. So, we have no choice really but to reflect deeply and consistently about how we think of the dopers in cycling (all of them), their relative impact, and what is the right and fair thing to do about it.

 

[Scarponi]

To those who watched hautacam live in 2000 how epic were those first moments of the climb thinking you were going to get a MONSTER Pantani vs Armstrong duel up the mountain aka Contador Froome last year only to be let down?

Also who was it from banesto who was able to hold Lances wheel for a little bit?

 

[franic]

Re:

To those who watched hautacam live in 2000 how epic were those first moments of the climb thinking you were going to get a MONSTER Pantani vs Armstrong duel up the mountain aka Contador Froome last year only to be let down?

Also who was it from banesto who was able to hold Lances wheel for a little bit?

The late Jose Maria Jimenez, nicknamed “El Chava”. He was a superb grimpeur in the EPO era

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

A couple of weeks ago I read a quote from His Pharmstrongness saying 'I've suffered enough already.' To which I replied, "Not your call, min skat."

Government wants Lance Armstrong's medical records for whistleblower case
AP 4:33 p.m. EDT August 5, 2015

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — The federal government wants to see Lance Armstrong's medical records from his treatments for cancer, specifically whether his doctors knew back in 1996 that he was using performance-enhancing drugs.

Court records show that government lawyers subpoenaed the Indiana University School of Medicine on July 30 to provide records of Armstrong's treatments and donations he later made to the school...

...Armstrong's lawyers have asked a judge to block the subpoena. They called the release of records a violation of privacy and noted Armstrong confessed in 2013 to doping to win the Tour de France seven times. In a deposition given July 23, Armstrong admitted doping prior to 1996, his lawyers wrote....

...While Armstrong has confessed to doping since before 1996, the push for medical records and what Armstrong told his doctors could be an attempt to further establish an intricate conspiracy to hide his cheating from federal sponsors.

After his initial diagnosis in 1996, Armstrong sought help at Indiana University, where Dr. Lawrence Einhorn had developed advanced treatments for the kind of testicular cancer that had spread to Armstrong's brain.

Betsy Andreu, the wife of Armstrong's former teammate Frankie Andreu, testified in a 2005 arbitration case that she was in a hospital room with Armstrong and others when she heard the cyclist tell doctors had had taken steroids and a blood booster.

Armstrong strongly denied the conversation took place, but Andreu's claim was one of the key allegations of doping that swirled around Armstrong for years. She repeated the claim a sworn statement to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency for its 2012 investigation that exposed Armstrong's doping and led to him being stripped of his Tour de France victories.

In the motion to quash the subpoena, Armstrong's lawyers wrote that he was recovering from brain surgery and now "does not recall" the conversation.

But others who were in the room — Frankie Andreu and Stephanie McIlvain, a representative of former Armstrong sponsor Oakley — have already been deposed.

Betsy Andreu insisted Wednesday she has always told the truth. The records, if allowed to be released to the government, should prove that, she said.

"My story has never changed. His has," Andreu said. "Who can you believe?"

An Indiana University spokesman did not immediately return a message seeking comment.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

To those who watched hautacam live in 2000 how epic were those first moments of the climb thinking you were going to get a MONSTER Pantani vs Armstrong duel up the mountain aka Contador Froome last year only to be let down?

Also who was it from banesto who was able to hold Lances wheel for a little bit?

The late Jose Maria Jimenez, nicknamed “El Chava”. He was a superb grimpeur in the EPO era

Any details on Jose's premature demise? Other than wiki that is.

 

[proffate]

Re: Re:

To those who watched hautacam live in 2000 how epic were those first moments of the climb thinking you were going to get a MONSTER Pantani vs Armstrong duel up the mountain aka Contador Froome last year only to be let down?

Also who was it from banesto who was able to hold Lances wheel for a little bit?

The late Jose Maria Jimenez, nicknamed “El Chava”. He was a superb grimpeur in the EPO era

Any details on Jose's premature demise? Other than wiki that is.

Heart attack does sound suspicious (although it is plausible).
- The French report on the wiki page mentions an autopsy but not its outcome
- There's a daily mail article from 2003 that speculates it was somehow a result of PEDs (no actual content to this article)
- A number of sources online mention a cocaine habit a la Pantani, some even claim it was an OD that killed him
- Cocaine use has been tied to increased short term risk of heart attack

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Re:

Government wants Lance Armstrong's medical records for whistleblower case
AP 4:33 p.m. EDT August 5, 2015

I'm surprised more people haven't commented on this.