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Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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What is amazing is the absolute consistancy of the guy. Obstruction, confusion, lies, half truths, delaying tactics. Always surrounded by paid thugs. He chose his path years ago and hasn't changed a bit, other than a few PR tours to try and convince us he has.
 
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poupou said:
Who said that the USADA investigation was a waste of government money?...
Within the tens of thousands of posts made to this now three-part thread, I would speculate there have been in the dozens who have made that remark. Most recently, our new resident contrarian and conspiracyphile, whose screen name I will not dignify in the mentioning.
 
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poupou said:
Who said that the USADA investigation was a waste of government money?
It was stupid to try to bite the federal government.

No it wasn't. The national and international federation were in on the fraud. What could possibly go wrong? Did they ever imagine a relatively poor outsider working with a powerless NADO would ever be the end of the line?

No way.
 
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DirtyWorks said:
poupou said:
Who said that the USADA investigation was a waste of government money?
It was stupid to try to bite the federal government.
No it wasn't. The national and international federation were in on the fraud. What could possibly go wrong? Did they ever imagine a relatively poor outsider working with a powerless NADO would ever be the end of the line?

No way.
Exactly. Just look at the way that eunuch Andre Birotte folded. Armstrong and his team brought a lot of pressure to bear on Tygart. Remember all those visits by Livestrong reps to congressional offices? Or slimeball Congressman Jim Sensebrenner's threat defund USADA. Or California state legislators making noise along similar lines. There's probably a lot of behind the scenes chicanery we don't even know about. Most people in Tygart's shoes would have walked away from the fight, and went back to their cushy jobs. Not Tygert.

However, it must be said that USADA would have gotten nowhere without the original federal investigation. USADA didn't have the power to subpoena witnesses and compel testimony. Guys like Tyler Hamilton would never have talked to USADA had they not first given testimony to the federal investigation. You'll recall that while Birotte wouldn't hand over the evidence of the federal investigation to USADA, federal investigators did sit in on some of the USADA's interviews, thus creating a huge disincentive for witnesses to provide contrasting testimony.

I'm still really curious as to why the original federal investigation was shut down. I wonder if we'll ever know the full story.
 
Some people just don't understand how difficult it is to prove a criminal case beyond a reasonable doubt. Even after the Barry Bonds fiasco (where the evidence (from outside) seems very strong. There is no educating those people. This, no doubt, will provoke a return of the conspiracy/influence theorists....
 
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Re: Re:

Pazuzu said:
DirtyWorks said:
poupou said:
Who said that the USADA investigation was a waste of government money?
It was stupid to try to bite the federal government.
I'm still really curious as to why the original federal investigation was shut down. I wonder if we'll ever know the full story.
Armstrong's counsel and attorney was a Clinton political advisor. He rang Bill. Bill rings Birotte. then it gets shut-down. I think the line was "we dont hang or destroy our heroes"
 
Re: Re:

blackcat said:
RobbieCanuck said:
PEDS are a motive to get rich, become famous, prolong a career, recover from injury and keep a job.
wrong. there is something existential in sport, and PEDs enable

For many prolonging a career is existential - ergo Armstrong, he cannot shut up and just fade away because he has this need to be thought of as a great cyclist. It is why he made his return that ultimately did him in. You are trying to make a distinction without a difference. ;)
 
Hog got ganged up on by the usual few - they started moaning he was trolling when he fought back - he got banned - the usual.

I can't wait for him to return - for various reasons - not least to see him being insulted first, him being replied to first by certain people, but then him getting complained.

Aside from that he gives the best dawg analysis - and at least he sticks to his guns.
 
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Armstrong's counsel and attorney was a Clinton political advisor. He rand Bill. Bill rings Birotte. then it gets shut-down. I think the line was "we dont hang or destroy our heroes"
I've heard this explanation, and it rings true. But where does it comes from? A source inside the investigation who understandably chooses to remain anonymous?

If it is true, Armstrong waited too long for his attorney make that call to Bubba. Had they shut down the investigation earlier, those critical interviews under oath wouldn't have taken place, and those witnesses would have had no reason to talk to USADA. I suspect that Armstrong's team waited to act due to the risk their effort to close down the investigation would get revealed, resulting in bad publicity (or worse). But their hand was forced when the Feds were closing in with charges imminent. Strings get pulled... investigation gets shut down. What they didn't count on was Tygart's pitbull like tenacity and media savvy.
 
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Benotti69 said:
I wonder was the bottom line that of Tygart the Christian going after Armstrong the Atheist........................
It's possible Tygart's faith -- and unshakable belief in right and wrong -- made him less likely to equivocate, or rationalize cheating. However, I don't believe for a second Tygart prosecuted Armstrong due to Armstrong's professed atheism.

At the end of the day, I'm glad Tygart, unlike so many others in high positions, actually did his job . He didn't look the other way, while at the same time making insincere exhortations about how import clean sport is, and how children need strong role models... blah, blah, blah! He went after the biggest cheat of them all and took the ****** down.

For that I'm eternally thankful.
 
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I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.
 
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HelmutRoole said:
I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.

What could you possibly need from USADA if the information was "mostly publicly available information" and the DOJ "gift wrapped" the rest. The fact is all of the affidavit evidence in which the proof was substantially contained was not released by the DOJ because they are not entitled in law to do this where they terminate an investigation. If you look at the affidavits they were given to USADA and not the DOJ. Methinks you dost protest too much! :rolleyes:
 
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Re: Re:

RobbieCanuck said:
HelmutRoole said:
I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.

What could you possibly need from USADA if the information was "mostly publicly available information" and the DOJ "gift wrapped" the rest. The fact is all of the affidavit evidence in which the proof was substantially contained was not released by the DOJ because they are not entitled in law to do this where they terminate an investigation. If you look at the affidavits they were given to USADA and not the DOJ. Methinks you dost protest too much! :rolleyes:
It was a story concerning Tom Zirbel's positive for testosterone. It had nothing to do with Armstrong or the DoJ.

I've never encountered a Tygert fanboy.

So, your version of events would have me believe that Tygert charmed 11 former Armstrong teammates into providing incriminating affidavits against Armstrong?

Is it possible, in your admiration of Tygert, that you're leaving something out?
 
Re: Re:

HelmutRoole said:
RobbieCanuck said:
HelmutRoole said:
I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.

What could you possibly need from USADA if the information was "mostly publicly available information" and the DOJ "gift wrapped" the rest. The fact is all of the affidavit evidence in which the proof was substantially contained was not released by the DOJ because they are not entitled in law to do this where they terminate an investigation. If you look at the affidavits they were given to USADA and not the DOJ. Methinks you dost protest too much! :rolleyes:
It was a story concerning Tom Zirbel's positive for testosterone. It had nothing to do with Armstrong or the DoJ.

You are a Tygert fan boy, eh?

Ok, now this is really goofy.

Especially considers the amount of Lance fan-paraphernalia that can still be purchased.

Such a statement, however, does bare the fact that your arguments are without any.

Dave.
 
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Re: Re:

D-Queued said:
HelmutRoole said:
RobbieCanuck said:
HelmutRoole said:
I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.

What could you possibly need from USADA if the information was "mostly publicly available information" and the DOJ "gift wrapped" the rest. The fact is all of the affidavit evidence in which the proof was substantially contained was not released by the DOJ because they are not entitled in law to do this where they terminate an investigation. If you look at the affidavits they were given to USADA and not the DOJ. Methinks you dost protest too much! :rolleyes:
It was a story concerning Tom Zirbel's positive for testosterone. It had nothing to do with Armstrong or the DoJ.

You are a Tygert fan boy, eh?

Ok, now this is really goofy.

Especially considers the amount of Lance fan-paraphernalia that can still be purchased.

Such a statement, however, does bare the fact that your arguments are without any.

Dave.

Edit is above your post.
 
Re: Re:

HelmutRoole said:
RobbieCanuck said:
HelmutRoole said:
I'm not impressed with USADA or Tygert. The Reasoned Decision was mostly publicly available information. What wasn't was gift wrapped by the DoJ. Their unwillingness to release information to me in my dealings with them as a journalist is Bush/Cheney'esque.

It's truly the amateur hour over there.

What could you possibly need from USADA if the information was "mostly publicly available information" and the DOJ "gift wrapped" the rest. The fact is all of the affidavit evidence in which the proof was substantially contained was not released by the DOJ because they are not entitled in law to do this where they terminate an investigation. If you look at the affidavits they were given to USADA and not the DOJ. Methinks you dost protest too much! :rolleyes:
It was a story concerning Tom Zirbel's positive for testosterone. It had nothing to do with Armstrong or the DoJ.

I've never encountered a Tygert fanboy.

So, your version of events would have me believe that Tygert charmed 11 former Armstrong teammates into providing incriminating affidavits against Armstrong?

Is it possible, in your admiration of Tygert, that you're leaving something out?

I admire Tygart's abilities as a lawyer who got things done. Your post made no reference to Tom Zirbel. I am not sure whether admiring a job well done by Tygart makes me a "fanboy". I think your reasoning on that point is vacuous, but if by admiring his ability to bring the Armstrong case to its appropriate conclusion then call me a fanboy.
 
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

Here's how it worked. The Feds interrogated all of the relevant Posties during the course of the Armstrong investigation. The interrogations were either under oath, or in front of the grand jury (or both). Either way, the Postie witnesses were seriously locked in. If they lied to the investigators, they face felony obstructing (a' la Martha Stewart); if they lied to the grand jury, they face felony perjury charges.

Then the federal criminal case stopped. Obviously, the feds decided that going the civil recovery route was the way to go. In other words, another legal process is about to begin--using (among other stuff) the testimony and evidence obtained from the Posties during the criminal investigation. The feds obviously care about that information (because there is potentially millions at stake). They don't want the Posties making all sorts of stupid inconsistent statements to USADA that would potentially devalue those witnesses in the feds' upcoming civil case. The feds are paying attention to what the Posties say to USADA.

The Postie witnesses all know that they don't want to tell a different story to USADA. They could decline to participate with WADA, but once they decide to talk, they don't want to make inconsistent statements (for very real fear of criminal prosecution, for example).

So, USADA benefits from the nervous Postie witnesses.

Concurrently, almost from the moment Fraud started squealing, there was Fraud's whistleblower lawsuit. That provided another incentive for the Postie witnesses to tell the truth and keep their stories straight.

Tygart got massively lucky with the federal lawsuit and with Fraud's disclosures. Nevvertheless, he played his hand very well.

Or, religious faith decided the outcome.......

I guess we'll never know.
 
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

MarkvW said:
Here's how it worked. The Feds interrogated all of the relevant Posties during the course of the Armstrong investigation. The interrogations were either under oath, or in front of the grand jury (or both). Either way, the Postie witnesses were seriously locked in. If they lied to the investigators, they face felony obstructing (a' la Martha Stewart); if they lied to the grand jury, they face felony perjury charges.

Then the federal criminal case stopped. Obviously, the feds decided that going the civil recovery route was the way to go. In other words, another legal process is about to begin--using (among other stuff) the testimony and evidence obtained from the Posties during the criminal investigation. The feds obviously care about that information (because there is potentially millions at stake). They don't want the Posties making all sorts of stupid inconsistent statements to USADA that would potentially devalue those witnesses in the feds' upcoming civil case. The feds are paying attention to what the Posties say to USADA.

The Postie witnesses all know that they don't want to tell a different story to USADA. They could decline to participate with WADA, but once they decide to talk, they don't want to make inconsistent statements (for very real fear of criminal prosecution, for example).

So, USADA benefits from the nervous Postie witnesses.

Concurrently, almost from the moment Fraud started squealing, there was Fraud's whistleblower lawsuit. That provided another incentive for the Postie witnesses to tell the truth and keep their stories straight.

Tygart got massively lucky with the federal lawsuit and with Fraud's disclosures. Nevvertheless, he played his hand very well.

Or, religious faith decided the outcome.......

I guess we'll never know.

That is all so logical.

Thus, to recognize this contribution in the manner consistent with these threads and topics as based on prior precedent set by the intern campaign from Public Strategies, along with the Frantic Fan Fools and their vanishing twins, and up through this past week, can I suggest that "you must be a Tygart fanboy"?

;)

Dave.
 
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Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

USADA, Tygert... They're not bad people. But my experiences as a reporter' tells me, they screw the pooch over there and often. And when they do, they don't like people knowing about it.
 
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

HelmutRoole said:
USADA, Tygert... They're not bad people. But my experiences as a reporter' tells me, they screw the pooch over there and often. And when they do, they don't like people knowing about it.

What kind of reporter?

:confused:

You may have this forum confused with something that has 3 x's.

Otherwise, your experience as a reporter should have taught you something about making bizarre and unsubstantiated accusations.

Please feel encouraged to focus more on your best Joe Friday impersonation.

Dave.
 
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Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

D-Queued said:
HelmutRoole said:
USADA, Tygert... They're not bad people. But my experiences as a reporter' tells me, they screw the pooch over there and often. And when they do, they don't like people knowing about it.

What kind of reporter?

:confused:

You may have this forum confused with something that has 3 x's.

Otherwise, your experience as a reporter should have taught you something about making bizarre and unsubstantiated accusations.

Book 'em, Danno.
Please feel encouraged to focus more on your best Joe Friday impersonation.

Dave.
 
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Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

D-Queued said:
HelmutRoole said:
USADA, Tygert... They're not bad people. But my experiences as a reporter' tells me, they screw the pooch over there and often. And when they do, they don't like people knowing about it.

What kind of reporter?

:confused:

You may have this forum confused with something that has 3 x's.

Otherwise, your experience as a reporter should have taught you something about making bizarre and unsubstantiated accusations.

Please feel encouraged to focus more on your best Joe Friday impersonation.

Dave.
There are three obvious questions you failed to ask.

1) Where has your work appeared?
2) Who were you working for when you interviewed Travis Tygert?
3) What was the nature of that interview?

You didn't think to ask those questions likely because your mind is already made up. You don't need anymore information. Move on. Nothing to see here.

By the way, Joe Friday was a police officer not a reporter. A minor detail, I'm sure, to someone making reactionary statements.